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imzeke21

Writing on hands for tournaments?

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Occasionally, when I watch a game on youtube, one of the players will have writing with sharpie on their hands. The writing can be R2D2 or Rey, or something like that. But, it's always a reminder for some game mechanic. Is this legal? I really don't know. If it is, how would you feel about your opponent doing this to prevent a missed opportunity? Should people just remember their list's mechanics? Thanks. 

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From the regulations:

"Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round.  However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents. Official rule documents include all rules documents and inserts available on the X-Wing page of our website, those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof."

It could be argued that something like taping an additional copy of Rey (or just the word Rey from the card) to the back of your hand would "reference official ... game components ... or any portion thereof".  Writing Rey on your hand instead of cutting a card in half is just less wasteful. :)

 

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3 minutes ago, pheaver said:

From the regulations:

"Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round.  However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents. Official rule documents include all rules documents and inserts available on the X-Wing page of our website, those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof."

It could be argued that something like taping an additional copy of Rey (or just the word Rey from the card) to the back of your hand would "reference official ... game components ... or any portion thereof".  Writing Rey on your hand instead of cutting a card in half is just less wasteful. :)

 

 

LOL.  I'm just thinking of someone bringing in a set of target lock tokens and spelling out: "DID YOU REMEMBER TO" on the table and then put an extra copy of Rey and Sensor Jammer cards under it.  That's legal game components right?

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I just think a lot of it comes down to the intent.  Which is a ***** of a thing to try and discern.  There are A LOT of triggers and abilities in this game.  And it just gets more expansive in each release.  After 4 or 5 rounds my brain is mush and I know a lot of other peoples are too.  If someone has "R2D2!" on their hand as a very basic reminder of a game trigger to regen their shields, whatever.  It's not affecting *MY* game.  This game is supposed to be about good decision making, flying good, and knowing how to adapt as the game goes on.  It's not supposed to be about punishing someone for forgetting an action or trigger that they had every right to use.

But that's just the the filthy casual side of me.  

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39 minutes ago, viedit said:

 

LOL.  I'm just thinking of someone bringing in a set of target lock tokens and spelling out: "DID YOU REMEMBER TO" on the table and then put an extra copy of Rey and Sensor Jammer cards under it.  That's legal game components right?

Oh, I'm wanting to do this at the next Regional: Spell out "Y-O-U W-I-L-L L-O-S-E" and stare at my opponent.

Now we know why there are so many Target Lock tokens...

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Since I play for fun, my experience won't line up, but I don't care what reminders people have for avoiding missed opportunities. I want to play the best version of my opponent, not gloat because they forgot a trigger. 

With my TO hat on, the rules are the rules. Ink on your skin could be a tattoo for all I know, papers are obviously outside material though. 

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2 hours ago, viedit said:

I just think a lot of it comes down to the intent.    

I think that while the intent as to WHY the rule is there in the first place is debatable, it is irrelevant. The fact that the rule is there is indisputable and for tournaments at least should be enforced.

as I said above, I don't like the rule at all, but a rule is a rule and should be adhered to. I don't like that TLT triggers Harpooned! but the FAQ confirms the interaction. Accepting the rules is part of the game whether people agree with them or not.

 

Now as people have pointed out above there are actually ways of loopholing this rule with actual FFG products which falls within the technical parameters of the rule (sticking another copy of the Rey crew card to the back of your hand as mentioned above) so the issue is that FFG probably need to actually revisit this rule, or as others have pointed out write up and provide a set of "Floor Rules" for tournaments.

Edited by Mace Windu

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3 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

I think that while the intent as to WHY the rule is there in the first place is debatable, it is irrelevant. The fact that the rule is there is indisputable and for tournaments at least should be enforced.

as I said above, I don't like the rule at all, but a rule is a rule and should be adhered to. I don't like that TLT triggers Harpooned! but the FAQ confirms the interaction. Accepting the rules is part of the game whether people agree with them or not.

 

Now as people have pointed out above there are actually ways of loopholing this rule with actual FFG products which falls within the technical parameters of the rule (sticking another copy of the Rey crew card to the back of your hand as mentioned above) so the issue is that FFG probably need to actually revisit this rule, or as others have pointed out write up and provide a set of "Floor Rules" for tournaments.

Does a quote of a rule/card not count as ‘a part’ of an official FFG product? Don’t see the dilemma tbh.

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Is glancing at the back of your hand 'referencing outside material'? Heck no. It's not picking up a book/article other than the official rules/tournament pack, it's a visual reminder.

 

Sorry, but if you have a problem with a reminder on the back of someones hand, that's just more than a bit retentive.

tenor.gif

 

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"Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round.
However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain
hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents. Official
rule documents include all rules documents and inserts available on the X-Wing page of our
website, those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof."

I've markered reminders on my hands for years, been mocked for it, and been called out for breaking this tournament reg after it was implemented - I'm fairly certain I popularized the practice.

1) The items we're discussing constitute "open information".

2) FFG officials, at Worlds, have assured me that it's kosher.  This includes writing down your opponents' squads.  You're just not permitted to take notes DURING the round, and I've never even seen that rule enforced at any level.

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Quote

Tokens
Tokens are representations of information about the game or game state. The presence of tokens—other than tokens that are essential components—is marked by one or more indicators. Indicators may also be used to represent multiple tokens, or other open or derived information. Essential tokens are ship and obstacle tokens, as well as any bomb tokens (in a reasonable quantity) required for a player’s list. Other tokens are not essential components.

Typically, players use he cardboard tokens included in official product as indicators. However, players may choose to use other items as indicators, so long as they do not obscure significant component information, are resistant to accidental modification, and their purpose of use is clear to both players. The marshal is responsible for determining the legality of an indicator and its reasonable usage during a match if objected to by its owner’s opponent.

You could take a picture of Daisy Ridley, write "Did you remember me?" and leave it there next to you as a "token", just make sure your opponent understands what it is on the table for. Tape the picture to the back of you hand, its still a token. Getting really creepy at that point, but still a token. 

Edited by kris40k

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12 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

I think that while the intent as to WHY the rule is there in the first place is debatable, it is irrelevant. The fact that the rule is there is indisputable and for tournaments at least should be enforced.

as I said above, I don't like the rule at all, but a rule is a rule and should be adhered to. I don't like that TLT triggers Harpooned! but the FAQ confirms the interaction. Accepting the rules is part of the game whether people agree with them or not.

 

Now as people have pointed out above there are actually ways of loopholing this rule with actual FFG products which falls within the technical parameters of the rule (sticking another copy of the Rey crew card to the back of your hand as mentioned above) so the issue is that FFG probably need to actually revisit this rule, or as others have pointed out write up and provide a set of "Floor Rules" for tournaments.

My meaning of "intent" was more on the player side, not the developers.  The intent is simply a reminder.  It's not malicious, it doesn't provide any outside information, it doesn't affect the other persons game in any meaningful way since it's reminders on legal actions/triggers.  

In nearly every operating room or procedural room in hospitals across the the US there is a process done called a "Timeout".  This is a time where clinicians stop, double check the site/side/appendage they are going to be working on.  Verify who is doing what, and make sure everyone is ready to do this.  

This is basically a personal timeout to me.  In situations where a persons well being is at risk it's mandated.  In a situation where we are playing for cards and pieces of acrylic we are arguing over it.  It's just a perspective thing to me.

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