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The Elephant in the Room: how do you beat Kanan Fenn?

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I'm finding success with 3 of these:

Rho Squadron Vet

Expertise

GC

Concussion Missiles

EM

Title

Control the approach, be VERY paitent, and let loose when the moment comes. Turn 0 is where you can win with this list, and you have to be smart with your asteroid placement. Works well against other stuff too, although right now the banked BR from the new Star Viper title is giving me fits to fly against and plan around. 

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23 minutes ago, Flyingbrick said:

I am wondering if a list built around lt. Blount with ion pulse missiles would be mildly entertaining against the Ghost build?

 

Well, he's PS 6, so he'll shoot before the common variants of the Ghost. Not sure he's gonna do anything more than the missile, but it could be entertaining. 

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5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Well, he's PS 6, so he'll shoot before the common variants of the Ghost. Not sure he's gonna do anything more than the missile, but it could be entertaining. 

Blount needs a scavenger crane in the worst way.

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I do agree Lt. Blount more or less is a 1 trick pony but if he can live long enough to ion a ghost off the board or setting up the right situation for the rest of his wingmates to have a good killbox.The ghost could potentially go down rather quickly. 

Edited by Flyingbrick

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4 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Rey Ors should be a natural counter of ghost/fenn: Rey outshoot the ghost (she used to outshoot finn fcs rey Kanan, current ghost fenn deals less damage) and is mostly immune to Fenn shenanigans. Jan Ors won't survive long, but she could deal some damages too before biting the dust.

Sure they still need to take down Fenn to prevent ps 11 boosting, but as I said that list used to take down Biggs who was tougher than Fenn.

The real issue is: can Rey Ors deal with other common lists involving things like Asaji, harpoons or 4 rebel ships with stress? I'm not sure

Jan Ors dies in  single turn unless she's flying with some extra hull via Chewie crew, which means she can't afford either Expertise or Lonne wolf, so modless TLT shots. Against a tokenless AGI 2 target, Kanan can easily do 5 damage in a round provided he's got her in arc. Her 35+ points just isn't worth it.

At best she'll contribute 2 extra damage, but even that is dubious. Probably more like 1.5.

ReyOrs will melt to NyManda, since the TLTs still burn her down. Countermeasures helps against 3Nu+QD builds, but not much.

4 hours ago, gadwag said:

So has anyone run against ghost Fenn with something like this?

Major VynderExpertise, Advanced proton torpedoes, harpoon missiles, advanced SLAM, OS-1 Arsenal Loadout (44)

Rear Admiral Chiraneau: VI, Kylo Ren, Engine Upgrade, Dauntless (56)

It seems you're building a hard counter there, since Vynder will never hit anything else with those APTs. RAC has no way to reroll blanks, so getting the crit he needs is notoriously unreliable.

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1 hour ago, Astech said:

It seems you're building a hard counter there, since Vynder will never hit anything else with those APTs. RAC has no way to reroll blanks, so getting the crit he needs is notoriously unreliable.

Hah - fat Vynder and Chiraneau (or the Fast and the Furious as I like to call them) was a joke/fun list that I came up with and flew well before Ghost Fenn was a thing. I just realised the other day that Fast and Furious has a pretty decent matchup vs Ghost Fenn so I was wondering what you folks thought and if anyone had tried the matchup.

The APTs are predominantly there as insurance against aces boosting to r1 of vynder where he can't use his harpoon. They are also a pretty terrifying weapon on the rare occasion that they do go off (I claimed a quickdraw with them on the first outing of this list) and will be pretty decent against a ghost. As for RAC, he could do with predator instead of VI for rerolls but it's a tad tight on points. One option is PtL on Vynder, which allows you to drop the APT down to prockets, but then you're susceptible to Fenn using his ability on Vynder or stealing your focus before you can fire. Apart from facing Fenn/Hotcop, PtL is a solid option though, and it even lets you pull tricks like TL->reload on the same turn. You do have to watch your greens carefully to avoid blocks though.

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8 hours ago, gadwag said:

So has anyone run against ghost Fenn with something like this?

Major Vynder: Expertise, Advanced proton torpedoes, harpoon missiles, advanced SLAM, OS-1 Arsenal Loadout (44)

Rear Admiral Chiraneau: VI, Kylo Ren, Engine Upgrade, Dauntless (56)

 

Way too many points on Vynder imho. True that it might pack quite some punch though, even if it could be dead by turn two. 

Edited by Arma Quattro

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I flew Vynder and RAC against a Kanan and Fenn set up in a regional 2 weeks ago.

Had a tough but decent chance, I thought, until 3 harpoon missiles in a row did a grand total of 1 of damage to the sensor Jammer ghost.

I was unable to target Fenn initially, and then he locked down my tokens.

Meanwhile RAC was bleeding out.

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7 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

I flew Vynder and RAC against a Kanan and Fenn set up in a regional 2 weeks ago.

Had a tough but decent chance, I thought, until 3 harpoon missiles in a row did a grand total of 1 of damage to the sensor Jammer ghost.

I was unable to target Fenn initially, and then he locked down my tokens.

Meanwhile RAC was bleeding out.

 

That's what I'd expect to happen. Lol 1 damage.  

 

Howd you get 3 harpoons off?

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1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

 

That's what I'd expect to happen. Lol 1 damage.  

 

Howd you get 3 harpoons off?

3 rounds of firing. The 4th one did 3 damage, and RAC did finally kill Fenn, but that was a big loss.

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4 hours ago, Astech said:

Jan Ors dies in  single turn unless she's flying with some extra hull via Chewie crew, which means she can't afford either Expertise or Lonne wolf, so modless TLT shots. Against a tokenless AGI 2 target, Kanan can easily do 5 damage in a round provided he's got her in arc. Her 35+ points just isn't worth it.

At best she'll contribute 2 extra damage, but even that is dubious. Probably more like 1.5.

ReyOrs will melt to NyManda, since the TLTs still burn her down. Countermeasures helps against 3Nu+QD builds, but not much.

 

Jan ors does indeed have chewbe. 

It's very likely she dies in 2 turns, but the same can be said for fenn. And the ghost won't be able to beat Rey in a 1v1.

Against qd+3 nu and nym miranda, it struggles thought. But with eu can outfly the former and probably has game with the latter too considering rey could potentially only take 2 damages per harpoon

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12 hours ago, Astech said:

A few Rey strategies have been put forward, which I have explained the natural counters to. They've then replied with "you're assuming the Ghost player is better, otherwise he wouldn't be able to counter", when in fact I'm assuming a high level of play for both players. The fact is that Rey is an incredibly inflexible ship. She needs to keep arc; and even then she might lose the race if Lowhrick is out of the picture. Rey's dial pretty much screams "block me", which is a sound tactical maneuver, and circling the rocks with a strong turret has always been a strategy against primarily arc-based ships.

Okay.  We'll just agree to disagree.  If you think Rey is inflexible, then I don't think we can do anything but disagree.

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1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Okay.  We'll just agree to disagree.  If you think Rey is inflexible, then I don't think we can do anything but disagree.

Inflexible might be too strong a word but I know what he means. Rey is a large ship with no repositioning options, so the only information you have while setting her final position for the round is the one you have during the planning phase. There's no way to fix the choice you get to make at that point, based on whatever lower PS ships do. Lack of repositioning also restricts her ability to control range in order to either chase or flee (or ocasionally both at the same time), which is an important aspect of flying the other large base turrets.  On top of that, Rey's efficiency in both offence and defence tanks considerably if she cannot keep the enemy in arc, which makes her moves somewhat predictable.

Now, Rey's (effectively) white sloops and excellent in-arc stats make up for these shortcomings but her options are still somewhat limited compared to han, dash, RAC and now ghost (especially supported by fenn).  Much like defenders she relies a lot on one trick, that is admittedly very powerful and often hard to counter, but it is one trick nonetheless.

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Grunching, but how about an Imperial Alpha Strike list? Something like this?

98 points

PILOTS

Major Rhymer (34)
TIE Bomber (26), Extra Munitions (2), Proton Torpedoes (4), Adaptability (0), Seismic Charges (2), Guidance Chips (0)

Tomax Bren (33)
TIE Bomber (24), Adrenaline Rush (1), Extra Munitions (2), Harpoon Missiles (4), Seismic Charges (2), Guidance Chips (0)

Captain Jonus (31)
TIE Bomber (22), Extra Munitions (2), Harpoon Missiles (4), Veteran Instincts (1), Seismic Charges (2), Guidance Chips (0)

GC + rerolls is usually enough against low agility ships. Unfortunately this list is pretty horrible against aces (and lots of other stuff) but it can usually melt a big ship pretty fast. Change EPT on Tomax as needed, and bombs are for arc dodgers. Might not be optimal for a tournament though :)

 

 

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ANy list with Rhymer AND Jonus in is basically automatically terrible; they're both very overcosted, Rhymer in particular.

And using Protons instead of Harpoons is just a bad idea.

Imp Alpha has a not unreasonable chance, but you've gotta be talking about VI Vader, VI QD, and a wingmate of some sort, with a decent bid. 

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

ANy list with Rhymer AND Jonus in is basically automatically terrible; they're both very overcosted, Rhymer in particular.

And using Protons instead of Harpoons is just a bad idea.

Imp Alpha has a not unreasonable chance, but you've gotta be talking about VI Vader, VI QD, and a wingmate of some sort, with a decent bid. 

So true, sadly. I went through a snap shot Rhymer phase, but even that's been dwarfed by Snap-R3-A2 Nien. Jonus has a great role in epic play, but outside that he's weak for his excessive points.

The bomber's pretty much been entirely eclipsed by the gunboat now. If you want a solid, tokenless punch, 2 HLC Rhos with linked battery and expertise, paired with VI Quickdraw might get some mileage, but it's not particularly efficient.

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42 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Inflexible might be too strong a word but I know what he means. Rey is a large ship with no repositioning options, so the only information you have while setting her final position for the round is the one you have during the planning phase. There's no way to fix the choice you get to make at that point, based on whatever lower PS ships do. Lack of repositioning also restricts her ability to control range in order to either chase or flee (or ocasionally both at the same time), which is an important aspect of flying the other large base turrets.  On top of that, Rey's efficiency in both offence and defence tanks considerably if she cannot keep the enemy in arc, which makes her moves somewhat predictable.

Now, Rey's (effectively) white sloops and excellent in-arc stats make up for these shortcomings but her options are still somewhat limited compared to han, dash, RAC and now ghost (especially supported by fenn).  Much like defenders she relies a lot on one trick, that is admittedly very powerful and often hard to counter, but it is one trick nonetheless.

Engine Upgrade. PS 8 > PS 5, and adjusting for a possible boost with your own is a valid way to handle things. Plus Rey has the passive mods, so spending an action on the boost does not hurt her by large as long as she can maintain arc. 
 

 

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26 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

ANy list with Rhymer AND Jonus in is basically automatically terrible; they're both very overcosted, Rhymer in particular.

And using Protons instead of Harpoons is just a bad idea.

Imp Alpha has a not unreasonable chance, but you've gotta be talking about VI Vader, VI QD, and a wingmate of some sort, with a decent bid. 

Ok, I hear you.

The single Proton was there only to trigger the other two harpoons of course. I think it's better than a third harpoon since you have a lot of rerolls and GC.

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17 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Engine Upgrade. PS 8 > PS 5, and adjusting for a possible boost with your own is a valid way to handle things. Plus Rey has the passive mods, so spending an action on the boost does not hurt her by large as long as she can maintain arc. 
 

 

Engine upgrade would work indeed. It would also leave about 38 points for a wingman IIRC. That's not much. You could go with lowhrick I suppose, though the need to remain in R1 of him might defeat the purpose of EU in most cases.

Also, PS11 boost sadly still beats PS8 boost. And no, you won't have the time to kill fenn first. If you don't go all in on the ghost, you'll run out of hps before he does.

Edited by Lightrock

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I beat a really good Kanan-Fenn player with an attack Upsilon and two generic TIE Phantoms. Worked like a charm. Sent one Phantom to deal with Fenn, and I pushed him away from the Ghost before he was destroyed. Meanwhile, I let the Ghost come into the obstacles, and my other two ships came in from the sides and took off all of the shields. Then all of my ships cornered him and finished the job. 

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2 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Engine upgrade would work indeed. It would also leave about 38 points for a wingman IIRC. That's not much. You could go with lowhrrick I suppose, though the need to remain in R1 of him might defeat the purpose of EU in most cases.

Lowrick lives for only 2 or 3 turns anyway and once commit to shooting lowrick switching targets usually is a bad idea. Just make sure to give Lowrick decent enough mods. 
Jan Ors in a Moldy Crow with Chewbacca is another option, she lives for about two turns usually, enough time to deal with Fenn. 

Either way, 38 points is a lot of points actually. You get a proper ace for that kind of price. Heck, you even get a lothal rebel with hera, chopper and FCS for that price. Melts super quickly as well, but 4 dice attacks are still tasty. A shame that you can spend a focus even when you are not rolling dice. Still evade is useful too. It's a shame that Rex would die the first turn already and that his condition gets removed that way. 

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I was thinking about this as a potential counter more just because I love to fly Rey and what's a better counter to a PS 11 boost than another PS 11 boost.  Of course I know that since I am at 100 points I will loose the initiative often enough to not help but at least it is still there for other matchups. 

 

Rey — YT-1300 45
Expertise 4
Kanan Jarrus 3
Finn 5
Engine Upgrade 4
Millennium Falcon (TFA) 1
Ship Total: 62
   
Fenn Rau (Sheathipede) — Sheathipede-class Shuttle 20
Veteran Instincts 1
Jan Ors 2
Flight-Assist Astromech 1
Ship Total: 24
   
Captain Rex — TIE Fighter 14
Ship Total: 14

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Thanks. I was blind and now have seen the light.

This way Rex should actually survive the first turn. Though I am not even sure if he needs to survive focus fire, considering that your Fenn Rau will most likely be the main target. Either way, I think this is a great adaption. Now someone just needs to rename Rey into Hera and Finn into Wolffe and it would be a theme list as well. :D

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