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The Elephant in the Room: how do you beat Kanan Fenn?

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4 minutes ago, Sparklelord said:

My recommendation:

Tempest Squadron Pilot - 21

Cluster Missiles - 4

TIE/x1 - 0

Accuracy Corrector - 0

Guidance Chips - 0

TOTAL - 25 x 4

 

Reliable 1 round kill of the Ghost.

The lowly TIE Advanced rides again?

 

Edited by impspy

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1 hour ago, Sparklelord said:

My recommendation:

Tempest Squadron Pilot - 21

Cluster Missiles - 4

TIE/x1 - 0

Accuracy Corrector - 0

Guidance Chips - 0

TOTAL - 25 x 4

 

Reliable 1 round kill of the Ghost.

Somebody get this man a Trophy! 

Thats all folks. Nothing to see here. 

We got it.

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12 hours ago, Sekac said:

No, single focus means you already stated in the scenario that he's boosted and evaded in the hypothetical opening engagement. There's no way to boost, evade, and have more than one focus in a turn.

If he's got maul/Ezra than it's not Kanan. Or he doesn't have sensor Jammer. Or Fenn doesn't have hot-cop. Or something.

In this magical doomsday scenario, how is Kanan firing range 1 into a wookiee and TLTing it in the same turn? If he gets max hits at range 1 he does 5 damage. The next turn he might TLT it for 2 more before it shoots. The chances of him killing a wookiee before it fires a second time are extremely slim. It requires 2 direct hits or a major explosion and a direct hit. Or a stun and a bump. Either way your scenario is very unrealistic.

All of your "nope, it's hopeless" replies require extreme variance and poor piloting. Unblockable 5Ks, inescapable TLTs, Ghosts that can consistently arc-dodge multiple 180 degree arcs, etc. A big ship with boost and a turret is not a new thing. They don't just teleport to wherever you're vulnerable. They can still be predicted, blocked, and planned for.

It's a difficult archetype, certainly, but you're way over-selling its capabilities in every post.

The only thing you have to compromise is dropping Fenn down to Adaptability and ditching his FAA, which is pretty much meaningless in this matchup, and I'd argue the beefits of Kanan's ability make up for it.

He only boosts if your PS 1 ships have outplayed him. Unless Kanan is at Range 3 or somehow doesn't have a shot the boost is unnecessary. Previously I as just highlighting the ease with which Kanan can make R1. An R2 opening engagement is even more favourable for him, since the damage he takes is massively reduced.

The worst case scenario for Kanan is if he flies into R1 of all four wookies without bumping a single one, thus maximising the damage he takes. Of course in this scenario Kanan doesn't fire the TLT, so all four survive to shoot the next round. That's what I get for posting at midnight. Ideally Kanan would engage at R2, allowing for the TLT and main gun shots, with very little reduction in damage - something around 5.5 in the turn. Fenn also contributes, since he can actually shoot, leaving the round's damage at about 6.5. My mistake for talking about R1 TLT shots...

If Kanan is on the near edge of R2, the wookies cannot block the 5K without self-bumping at least one ship, and then kanan bumps one of the others with focus. That means only 2 modded shots, which Fenn removes for a devastating no damage turn for the wookies. So the 5K is essentially "unblockable". The TLT is incredibly hard to escape for a wounded ship unless the Kanan player just doesn't consider it. A Ghost with a PS 10-11 boost moving after PS1 ships with absolutely no turn around maneuver can easily dodge several arcs a turn. That was the whole point of Fat Han - he didn't have to doge everything, just enough that he could laugh at the remaining few shots.

In every post I state that it's not as bad as previous Op meta lists, can be easily counterplayed by properly built lists and is overall on an acceptable power level. I'm also saying that Kanan/Fenn is a hard counter to 4 wookies.

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2 hours ago, Sparklelord said:

My recommendation:

Tempest Squadron Pilot - 21

Cluster Missiles - 4

TIE/x1 - 0

Accuracy Corrector - 0

Guidance Chips - 0

TOTAL - 25 x 4

 

Reliable 1 round kill of the Ghost.

A friend of mine won an Assault at Imdaar Alpha tourney with this list.  Before Guidance Chips and TIE/x1.  Simpler times...

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2 hours ago, Astech said:

The only thing you have to compromise is dropping Fenn down to Adaptability and ditching his FAA, which is pretty much meaningless in this matchup, and I'd argue the beefits of Kanan's ability make up for it.

But that's not a list people are likely to take because it's very inferior in the mirror match. It doesn't matter if you know you're facing all PS 1, but right now you're far more likely to come across a PS 11 Fenn. 

Adaptability is the wrong meta call right now unfortunately. 

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5 hours ago, Sekac said:

But that's not a list people are likely to take because it's very inferior in the mirror match. It doesn't matter if you know you're facing all PS 1, but right now you're far more likely to come across a PS 11 Fenn

Adaptability is the wrong meta call right now unfortunately. 

In the mirror match, a Kanan with Rey or some such other focus bank is going to lose out to the Maul/Ezra combo. Conversely, if they've dropped something else to fit VI onto Kanan (like the hotcop pilot, maul or exra) then they're at a huge mods disadvantage and will lose the damage race.

The only thing that truly matters if a situation where a PS11 boost would give one Kanan a shot and leave the other without one. However, the odds of that happening are incredibly low, so it's not really an important feature. Add to that that a kanan ghost reduces damage by one in compaison to a Lothal Ghost, so again the Kanan with PS 10 adaptability is a pretty good choice.

I think the PS 11 is more crucial against the likes of Kylo and Quickdraw where you really want to have the final say on positioning.

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PS 10 Fenn is at a disadvantage against anything PS 10 with initiative bid or PS 11. Trading positional advantage against meta staples for the opportunity to pick on lower PS ships is a bad trade, there's no way around it. 

It's inferior in the mirror and inferior against the field. 

It's slightly better against low PS lists, but I'm frankly counting on seeing this list exactly 0 times at regionals considering low PS lists are not the thing to tech against right now. 

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46 minutes ago, Sekac said:

PS 10 Fenn is at a disadvantage against anything PS 10 with initiative bid or PS 11. Trading positional advantage against meta staples for the opportunity to pick on lower PS ships is a bad trade, there's no way around it. 

It's inferior in the mirror and inferior against the field. 

It's slightly better against low PS lists, but I'm frankly counting on seeing this list exactly 0 times at regionals considering low PS lists are not the thing to tech against right now. 

The only two things at PS 10 in the current meta are Nym and RAC/Kylo if I'm not mistaken. Nym is going to be devastated regardless of the range, due to TLT double taps and R1 primaries burning him down.

RAC is always a threat to low agility ships, but assuming he's using Kylo for his action he's simply not capable of hitting the ghost to proc at all, and is simply too large to arc-dodge Kanan properly. He loses the damage race easily (even if he slips in a few blinded Pilots), and his escort just isn't punchy enough to be meaningful.

Poe and Kylo are PS 11, but they've got a strong bid and this list never will, so the PS11 coordinate is equal with the PS 10.

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12 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Yea this and original Palp stuff with Inqy/Soontir.  Something like what you posted genuinely seems like the best possible option. 

From my own experience is QD not cutting it when compared to other imperial aces. QD gets the benefit of her ability exactly once in this matchup. Though I was worried with Nu+QD and had her running with VI+Advanced Optics. Going with expertise might yield somewhat better results. 

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27 minutes ago, Astech said:

The only two things at PS 10 in the current meta are Nym and RAC/Kylo if I'm not mistaken. Nym is going to be devastated regardless of the range, due to TLT double taps and R1 primaries burning him down.

RAC is always a threat to low agility ships, but assuming he's using Kylo for his action he's simply not capable of hitting the ghost to proc at all, and is simply too large to arc-dodge Kanan properly. He loses the damage race easily (even if he slips in a few blinded Pilots), and his escort just isn't punchy enough to be meaningful.

Poe and Kylo are PS 11, but they've got a strong bid and this list never will, so the PS11 coordinate is equal with the PS 10.

Why would he blind?

First thing you do is PS0 the enemy fenn then enjoy the freedom of choosing your actions without having to worry about the Ghost boosting after you move.

Blinds come once you've got PS advantage and you're in donut and out of arc.

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12 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Why would he blind?

First thing you do is PS0 the enemy fenn then enjoy the freedom of choosing your actions without having to worry about the Ghost boosting after you move.

Blinds come once you've got PS advantage and you're in donut and out of arc.

Because if he doesn't blind he's taking 4 damage minimum from Kanan each turn that he's shooting, even at range 1. RAC's typically got Palp on boad, so tokens aren't so essential.

If you PS 0 Fen sure, you've negated his HotCop and removed a lot of the utility of his coordinate action, but Kanan's still going to eat RAC for breakfast. So unless RAC's wingman is an Interceptor - ruining you against the NyManda matchup - your ace isn't going to be able to take Kanan by themselves.

Getting RAC inside the doughnut hole and out of arc is a nearly impossible task. Quite literally impossible if the Kanan player knows what they're doing: The Kanan player can simply kite the field and do 4 damage to RAC with TLTs until he's dead. If a Joust is forced, Kana can use his one PS11 coordinate he gets to guarantee the shot, then on the next turn run away, and there's simply no scenario where RAC can stay in the blind spot for more than a turn. The RAC matchup isn't so bad, since RAC doesn't really need tokens for mods, but it's still brutal due to the TLT double tap and equivalent health on the Ghost.

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5 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Wait are we seriously claiming that Palp/RAC isn't going to get his ability to proc on Kanan?  Because there's literally nothing the Kanan player can do to prevent it

Not at all, but if RAC's attacking Kanan at range 2 then he's rolling 2 dice (-1 because of Kanan's ability). Kanan further blocks 1 damage via the evade token coordinated to him by Fenn, and only takes a single crit eve if RAC rolls perfectly. If RAC happens to roll double blanks then no damage goes through.

That crit is probably Blinded on Kanan, so he doesn't get a primary attack that turn. He does, however, get his end of turn TLT, which will inevitably do 2 damage. So RAC loses the exchange at R2, and it's even worse for him at R3.

Of course, at R1 RAC's got a great chace of doing 2 damage to Kanan - 1 o shields and the BP beneath, but it's pretty unlikely considering that the Kanan player is quite happy to slow play and use the PS 11 boost to get arc if necessary.

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7 minutes ago, Astech said:

Not at all, but if RAC's attacking Kanan at range 2 then he's rolling 2 dice (-1 because of Kanan's ability). Kanan further blocks 1 damage via the evade token coordinated to him by Fenn, and only takes a single crit eve if RAC rolls perfectly. If RAC happens to roll double blanks then no damage goes through.

That crit is probably Blinded on Kanan, so he doesn't get a primary attack that turn. He does, however, get his end of turn TLT, which will inevitably do 2 damage. So RAC loses the exchange at R2, and it's even worse for him at R3.

Of course, at R1 RAC's got a great chace of doing 2 damage to Kanan - 1 o shields and the BP beneath, but it's pretty unlikely considering that the Kanan player is quite happy to slow play and use the PS 11 boost to get arc if necessary.

Are we just pretending that RAC doesn't have a wingman here or what?

RAC takes 3 damage a turn the first couple of rounds, Kanan should be taking 4 from RAC + Wingman

If Kanan uses PS11 boost to get arc, he's lacking the evade or the focus and takes more damage from RAC.

You're right, if RAC/Ace plays like a complete moron and Kanan/Fenn plays well, Kanan/Fenn will win.  That's how games are supposed to work.

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48 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

You're right, if RAC/Ace plays like a complete moron and Kanan/Fenn plays well, Kanan/Fenn will win.  That's how games are supposed to work.

It's a lot closer than that ;-)

But in general RAC+(Autothruster) Ace has a solid chance. 
And Rac does not take 3 damage per turn, he takes up to 7 damage per turn + potentially two damage on the ace. Plus Crits ;-)

Now your 3 damage estimation is a lot closer to what will happen in a game than the theoretical max of 7, but it's not the whole story either, because the damage deck only has two blinded pilot cards. Afterwards the damage to RAC increases to ~5 if you have focused on the Ghost. Which means that RAC will die before the Ghost and your ace as to win now against the two shuttles. 

Personally I think taking out Fenn and burning down the Ghost afterwards would be safer, especially if it's Kanan, but I don't like flying RAC, so my experience with that imperial list is limited. It's certainly a decent enough matchup for the imperial player either way … unless you make a single mistake and lose your ace, but that has been always the downside about playing imperial aces. 

 

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3 hours ago, Astech said:

The only two things at PS 10 in the current meta are Nym and RAC/Kylo if I'm not mistaken.

You're mistaken. 

Why do you think people put VI on Fenn and try to save a point or two for the bid if the meta is topping out at 10? 

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I think the play in the RAC v Ghost matchup is to go after the Ghost, blind it, and make it maneuver to retain TLT shots, which will take it further from Fenn.  At that point, Ghost shields are probably gone and you can start pushing RAC and Palp crits into the Ghost, or you can head the other way and try to go after an isolated Fenn.  

The other player gets a vote, of course, but it could be worse for the Imperial player.

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22 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The only things AT PS10 are those.  There are several above it.

There's other PS 10s too, but you're right, there are more 11s right now. It makes going to 10 and stopping with no bid a disadvantageous choice. The power of the boost and the order of firing are very important factors in how Ghost/Fenn is supposed to operate. 

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For what it's worth, the things that break the Ghost/Fenn list are the PS11 boost and the double tapping TLT, mostly the boosting at PS11. To counter that, you gotta take away that boost so you can get inside the TLT bubble, which means prioritizing Fenn.  I'd personally go RAC Palp Kylo EU, and a wingman to flavor, probably Quickdraw at PS11, even light enough for a 2 point bid.

98 points

“Quickdraw” (36)
Special Forces TIE (29), Veteran Instincts (1), Fire-Control System (2), Harpoon Missiles (4), Special Ops Training (0), Guidance Chips (0)

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (62)
VT-49 Decimator (46), Veteran Instincts (1), Emperor Palpatine (8), Kylo Ren (3), Engine Upgrade (4)

 

RAC has kylo assign damaged cockpit to Fenn, QD harpoons, palps a crit, has chips and reroll, so it *should be* 3-4 damage on Fenn with a crit included, Fenn can't dodge the crit, so he gets the PS0 crit assigned in the first exchange. This removes the ghost's boost at PS11. RAC or QD are gonna get a little pounded this round, but that's the price to pay to get Fenn's coordinate reduced in efficiency. After that, it's easier to deal with the Ghost. Not easy, but easier.

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I don't think RAClo is the path people need to go down.  A whole bunch of other people will be running 3+ ship lists as their Ghost/Fenn counter, and RAClo doesn't usually do well in that environment.

4 hours ago, LouisCypher said:

Just a small hint: did you ever try to kill  a green sq pilot (ptl/wired/at) with turrets? ;)

What do you throw in with GSPs that are competitive against the field?

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