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1 minute ago, TheSapient said:

So do the Fish Eyes have the burn quality, or how does this work?

Well I'd say it' more of a stink eye so maybe more of a social thing... intimidation through smell of some such. Can' think of any relevant talents off hand but feel free to suggest something that would work?

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@Stormbourne How long have you been playing RPGs? and Which ones have you played for the longest?  I think that may go a long way to helping you understand why others on this forum my be very averse to your ideas and show a great deal of criticism toward them.  I can say that in large part it isn't personal and they are just trying to provide constructive feedback. Its hard to take feedback for things you come up with especially when i see how these forums have reacted to your ideas, I can't blame them though they are pretty game-breaking.  If you don't like long explanations or rants proceed no further I can get quite long winded.  Ye have been warned.

I think its great though that you love coming up with ideas and its great to share them on the forums.  It is a way to get better as a GM and a player and how to improve your gaming experience.  That doesn't mean you have to play according to the rules others are using.  If you want to play your game a certain way, it is your game play it how you like!  However, before posting and implementing ideas you need to hold back your trigger finger and think through them carefully before putting them to paper, and be even more careful before putting them in game. As a creator you need to ask yourself some questions before you homebrew any content or create house-rules.  Does this fit the theme of the game we are playing? Where would this fit in game if it does fit the theme.  Are there other rules or mechanics that can  combo together get a similar effect as what you want to create or house-rule? would a simple reskin of other classes or mechanics work?  Can homebrew something with existing content? Does this mechanic/rule fix a problem or balance a mechanic that needed balancing or fixing?  Is this mechanic or rule adding new options to existing mechanics and rules?  How does my new gear or rule interact with the rest of the game?  How balanced is it within the context of the rest of the game?  What are potential problems this new rule or mechanic can cause within the context of the rest of the game?  How do you fix those problems?  Are there any edge cases where your mechanic can go haywire? The list of questions goes on and on.  Now you don't need to have answers for all of them and you don't need to be an expert designer to start thinking at least about a few of these.  That is the purpose of the forums to give feedback on some of those questions you may not have asked.  However your ideas clearly didn't pass that very first step of thought process beyond conception and they need a lot of refinement before you might have something serviceable in game. That is why you get such harsh criticism, your ideas don't have the simplest polish or thought put into them and the other posters feel like you are wasting their time.  This is especially true when they do give expected feedback and you get very possessive of your ideas and try to offer excuses for your reasoning.  It is understandable that you would do that people don't like their ideas being criticized.  However its an essential part of becoming a creator.  Anyone can be an "idea guy" too many people try to be the "idea guy" it is unimpressive and lazy.  Having ideas is great but its taking that next step, polishing, thinking refining and then asking for criticism or thoughts when you run into brick walls you can't overcome or you feel the idea is the best you could make it.  I don't think those broken house rules and this armor are the best you can do! I think you can do way better!

Onto both iterations of the armor.  They are both very broken.  Even when you keep trying to tone the power back, you haven't made it clear what your intention was and now you are flailing trying to keep a hold of your original idea when it should probably be scrapped.  Being able to downgrade checks or generate force pips like that super easily is a power a force wizard wishes they could have and some specializations wish they could have those powers.  Sage and Acetic have similar powers of pip generation but it is sparing and can't be used very often, and downgrading powers are spread very thinly either at the bottom of trees or in specialization or in VERY expensive items (and even then they only usually allow you to do it once a session).  If you want an armor a force user could love  either wait for Unlimited Power to see what happens or look at some of the talents and think to yourself how can i get a similar effect in an item without undermining the specialization with that talent? Lets take that robes armor thought with 3 encumbrance.  Lets give it 2 soak to make it even slightly more powerful.  A wizard needs protection too after all.  Now we can ask ourselves what we want this armor to do! I don't want to undermine the Acetic or the Sage or the seer but I want to be able to more reliably draw upon the force.  we have some sensible options we can upgrade our own force power checks, hand out blue or black dice,  we can alter force pip pool in some way, or we can provide ways to use force dice in interesting ways.   here are a couple of my own suggestions

- Once per session Commit force dice to have this armor's melee or ranged armor value become equal to the number or force die comitted for as long as the dice remain comitted (max 4) (this could be very powerful and is entering relic levels of power, but the max limit could be altered, notice my wording here since defense maxes out at 4)
- once per session re-roll one force die when making a force check taking the new  result(weaker version of force is my ally and could be used by a seer without being too broken)
- When an enemy rolls a combined force power check against you, once per session upgrade that check once. 
- once per session remove 1 black die when making a combined force power check
- once per session when rolling a force power check turn one black pip into a white pip (and vice versa)
- Add one advantage when you make a combined force power check.

Go nuts with different effects, but look here I just made the armor awesome without undermining other classes or other abilities.  I did this by either limiting their scope, making it once a session or you can use strain for such an effect.  Its best to make armor and weapons have much smaller scope than talents and have a more focused purpose.  Generally adding blacks or blues is pretty balanced as is adding straight advantage.  Other effects you need to consider what other abilities functions similarly and if i can just get the ability to use that effect OR if not can I make it somehow weaker or more situational so that the specialization with that ability doesn't feel undermined. Strain costs can be used to offset more powerful abilities just like adding difficulty or upgrading difficulty can be used in much the same way but don't go crazy with that either those type of high risk high reward effects are generally reserved for talents to make them more meaningful.  Just show some restraint and do some research about the game so that you know the limits of the game before you go start messing with it.  Its fun to change the game around and to come up with new ideas just make sure you understand what you want to do and why you are doing it before you get around to implementing or posting that idea.  These forums are here to help you make your game better.  They are not here to compliment your ideas at every turn.  If you have a great idea you will get praise, if it needs work criticism will come in. It is your job as a creator to listen to it.  

I hope you take this to heart.  I hope this helps you become a better creator and I hope you keep coming up with ideas and keep creating.  That is the fun part of playing a tabletop RPG. 

Edited by Earl of Madness

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5 hours ago, Earl of Madness said:

@Stormbourne How long have you been playing RPGs? ...

 

... That is the fun part of playing a tabletop RPG. 

WOW! Props!

Don' worry about being long winded or any such thing.

That has got to be about the best response @Stormbourne has received yet. It was caring, considered, polite, informative, inciteful... the list goes on. 

I really hope he takes it to heart. I also really liked some of the thought provoking suggestions that you provided. Just a great response all around. It really showcases the best of this community and explains why he may not have felt it before this.

Sorry @Stormbourne making assumptions that you are male here with no evidence to suggest either or. No offense was meant or intended.

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7 hours ago, Earl of Madness said:

@Stormbourne How long have you been playing RPGs? and Which ones have you played for the longest?  I think that may go a long way to helping you understand why others on this forum my be very averse to your ideas and show a great deal of criticism toward them.  I can say that in large part it isn't personal and they are just trying to provide constructive feedback. Its hard to take feedback for things you come up with especially when i see how these forums have reacted to your ideas, I can't blame them though they are pretty game-breaking.  If you don't like long explanations or rants proceed no further I can get quite long winded.  Ye have been warned.

I think its great though that you love coming up with ideas and its great to share them on the forums.  It is a way to get better as a GM and a player and how to improve your gaming experience.  That doesn't mean you have to play according to the rules others are using.  If you want to play your game a certain way, it is your game play it how you like!  However, before posting and implementing ideas you need to hold back your trigger finger and think through them carefully before putting them to paper, and be even more careful before putting them in game. As a creator you need to ask yourself some questions before you homebrew any content or create house-rules.  Does this fit the theme of the game we are playing? Where would this fit in game if it does fit the theme.  Are there other rules or mechanics that can  combo together get a similar effect as what you want to create or house-rule? would a simple reskin of other classes or mechanics work?  Can homebrew something with existing content? Does this mechanic/rule fix a problem or balance a mechanic that needed balancing or fixing?  Is this mechanic or rule adding new options to existing mechanics and rules?  How does my new gear or rule interact with the rest of the game?  How balanced is it within the context of the rest of the game?  What are potential problems this new rule or mechanic can cause within the context of the rest of the game?  How do you fix those problems?  Are there any edge cases where your mechanic can go haywire? The list of questions goes on and on.  Now you don't need to have answers for all of them and you don't need to be an expert designer to start thinking at least about a few of these.  That is the purpose of the forums to give feedback on some of those questions you may not have asked.  However your ideas clearly didn't pass that very first step of thought process beyond conception and they need a lot of refinement before you might have something serviceable in game. That is why you get such harsh criticism, your ideas don't have the simplest polish or thought put into them and the other posters feel like you are wasting their time.  This is especially true when they do give expected feedback and you get very possessive of your ideas and try to offer excuses for your reasoning.  It is understandable that you would do that people don't like their ideas being criticized.  However its an essential part of becoming a creator.  Anyone can be an "idea guy" too many people try to be the "idea guy" it is unimpressive and lazy.  Having ideas is great but its taking that next step, polishing, thinking refining and then asking for criticism or thoughts when you run into brick walls you can't overcome or you feel the idea is the best you could make it.  I don't think those broken house rules and this armor are the best you can do! I think you can do way better!

Onto both iterations of the armor.  They are both very broken.  Even when you keep trying to tone the power back, you haven't made it clear what your intention was and now you are flailing trying to keep a hold of your original idea when it should probably be scrapped.  Being able to downgrade checks or generate force pips like that super easily is a power a force wizard wishes they could have and some specializations wish they could have those powers.  Sage and Acetic have similar powers of pip generation but it is sparing and can't be used very often, and downgrading powers are spread very thinly either at the bottom of trees or in specialization or in VERY expensive items (and even then they only usually allow you to do it once a session).  If you want an armor a force user could love  either wait for Unlimited Power to see what happens or look at some of the talents and think to yourself how can i get a similar effect in an item without undermining the specialization with that talent? Lets take that robes armor thought with 3 encumbrance.  Lets give it 2 soak to make it even slightly more powerful.  A wizard needs protection too after all.  Now we can ask ourselves what we want this armor to do! I don't want to undermine the Acetic or the Sage or the seer but I want to be able to more reliably draw upon the force.  we have some sensible options we can upgrade our own force power checks, hand out blue or black dice,  we can alter force pip pool in some way, or we can provide ways to use force dice in interesting ways.   here are a couple of my own suggestions

- Once per session Commit force dice to have this armor's melee or ranged armor value become equal to the number or force die comitted for as long as the dice remain comitted (max 4) (this could be very powerful and is entering relic levels of power, but the max limit could be altered, notice my wording here since defense maxes out at 4)
- once per session re-roll one force die when making a force check taking the new  result(weaker version of force is my ally and could be used by a seer without being too broken)
- When an enemy rolls a combined force power check against you, once per session upgrade that check once. 
- once per session remove 1 black die when making a combined force power check
- once per session when rolling a force power check turn one black pip into a white pip (and vice versa)
- Add one advantage when you make a combined force power check.

Go nuts with different effects, but look here I just made the armor awesome without undermining other classes or other abilities.  I did this by either limiting their scope, making it once a session or you can use strain for such an effect.  Its best to make armor and weapons have much smaller scope than talents and have a more focused purpose.  Generally adding blacks or blues is pretty balanced as is adding straight advantage.  Other effects you need to consider what other abilities functions similarly and if i can just get the ability to use that effect OR if not can I make it somehow weaker or more situational so that the specialization with that ability doesn't feel undermined. Strain costs can be used to offset more powerful abilities just like adding difficulty or upgrading difficulty can be used in much the same way but don't go crazy with that either those type of high risk high reward effects are generally reserved for talents to make them more meaningful.  Just show some restraint and do some research about the game so that you know the limits of the game before you go start messing with it.  Its fun to change the game around and to come up with new ideas just make sure you understand what you want to do and why you are doing it before you get around to implementing or posting that idea.  These forums are here to help you make your game better.  They are not here to compliment your ideas at every turn.  If you have a great idea you will get praise, if it needs work criticism will come in. It is your job as a creator to listen to it.  

I hope you take this to heart.  I hope this helps you become a better creator and I hope you keep coming up with ideas and keep creating.  That is the fun part of playing a tabletop RPG. 

1JSslkN.jpg

YOU SIR WIN AS A CRITIC. why? because you're no cynical about the idea and see that the core concept has value, most people mistake criticism as being an emotionless bastard railing against an idea, this is not the point of criticism, it is to improve the idea how? pointing out it's flaws and MORE importantly suggesting improvements for those flaws to allow a sound and useful idea to be added to a system, whether it is social or game oriented.

actually that's an idea, how does this sound:

attachment, crystal weave:

cost: 19,000

restricted: yes

required HP: 4

base effect: add ○ to all force rolls

mods: 1 add additional ○ to all force rolls

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@Stormbourne

5 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

actually that's an idea, how does this sound:

attachment, crystal weave:

cost: 19,000

restricted: yes

required HP: 4

base effect: add ○ to all force rolls

mods: 1 add additional ○ to all force rolls

Much better, this is an idea actually worth suggesting to the forum.  Notice the difference between this and your previous idea.  This one looks like you took some time to think about what it does and now you have a direct goal in mind. It has focus and the intention is very clear behind the item.  Your previous items were confused, had multiple different interpretations and just felt complex and unwieldy.  This is simple, easy to understand and most important easy for a player and GM to understand in the middle of a game session. 

Onto some actual tweaks.  I feel the HP cost is actually overbalanced.  most HP range from `1-3 so that most armor can use it.  I don't actually feel this ability is so powerful it requires 4 HP.  However adding 1 white pip to all force rolls is now beginning to step on the toes of the acetic and the sage. The acetic gets that power at the bottom of their tree and they can't have more than 3 encumbrance.  The sage gets it earlier but it only lasts for an encounter if they meditate beforehand.  remember they have similar abilities and not even they get that many extra pips that frequently.   This power needs to be EVEN MORE situational or costly so players of those specializations feel good about using those talents.  I also have not seen any prior items or relics that perform this effect so i'm going to assume those talents are the most powerful versions of these types of abilities.  I could be wrong and if I am point me to the source. Perhaps this effect allows the wearer to convert an extra 3 advantage on combined force checks into force pips? Or maybe it generates one additional white per session and at the cost of 2 strain and a conflict it ALSO generates one black pip.  As far as mods go, i'd hold off on making mods until the base item is done that way you know what item you are working with.  Mods should be the icing on the cake for most items, not the reason you buy them, though this isn't always true. 

 

8 hours ago, jayc007 said:

WOW! Props!

Don' worry about being long winded or any such thing.

That has got to be about the best response @Stormbourne has received yet. It was caring, considered, polite, informative, inciteful... the list goes on. 

I really hope he takes it to heart. I also really liked some of the thought provoking suggestions that you provided. Just a great response all around. It really showcases the best of this community and explains why he may not have felt it before this.

Thanks for the compliment,  I try to be a mentor to new players or GMs since i've been playing RPGs for over 12 years at this point (started in middle school) and I made every mistake in the book. I still make mistakes to this day.  To be frank i'm very new to Star Wars myself as I've only played like 10 games and only 7 in our current campaign but I think i have the hang of things. I just have played a lot of tabletop games is all. I don't want to see people turned away because they are either new or haven't branched out of their comfort zone.  I agreed with what everyone has been stating in this post about the items, they were a confused mess that basically broke the game. However, I guess i'm just more patient than others are and I understand the frustration of the critics to the OP.  I just thought he might not have known or understood RPGs or this specific game as much which might have resulted in the confusion and that does indeed to be the case, or at least part of it. 

Cheers everybody! Glad I could come in and diffuse a hostile environment and provide support!

Edited by Earl of Madness

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5 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

Everyone is trying to help you.  Maybe try this without the insults.  Thanks.

I don't think Stormbourne was directing that at any one person Sapient.  I think that was just frustration coming out through the keyboard  I understand your frustrations and I see that everyone was trying to help and was getting fed up trying to get through to OP, but we need to remember that through a computer screen there are people on the other side and often emotion or nuance is lost when putting something to type.  After I put everyone on this forum's sentiments into context i think OP understand what everyone was trying to tell him as he made massive changes to the item in the prior post. it is understandable why you would take that as an insult since you may still be fuming about the OPs resistance in earlier posts. Lets not start a flame war here. 

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I don't think anyone is fuming?  I don't think anyone has fumed at all in this thread.  I'm just advising Stormbourne that his comments would be better received without the insults.  I've been trying to help him with these sorts of issues throughout the thread.  I'm sure you are trying your best too.

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8 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

 

actually that's an idea, how does this sound:

attachment, crystal weave:

cost: 19,000

restricted: yes

required HP: 4

base effect: add ○ to all force rolls

mods: 1 add additional ○ to all force rolls

I also think this is probably over powered... I would consider dropping it to 1 LS and 1 ds per encounter or even per session with 2 strain and 2 conflict if they are utilized. If you want to use one you have to use both hence the conflict. (And conflict can actually be very useful... as long as it is kept low your character will continue to go lighter... or high to go lower). My seeker hunter is a paragon after constantly taking conflict intending to stay neutral.

 

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5 hours ago, Earl of Madness said:

@Stormbourne

Much better, this is an idea actually worth suggesting to the forum.  Notice the difference between this and your previous idea.  This one looks like you took some time to think about what it does and now you have a direct goal in mind. It has focus and the intention is very clear behind the item.  Your previous items were confused, had multiple different interpretations and just felt complex and unwieldy.  This is simple, easy to understand and most important easy for a player and GM to understand in the middle of a game session. 

Onto some actual tweaks.  I feel the HP cost is actually overbalanced.  most HP range from `1-3 so that most armor can use it.  I don't actually feel this ability is so powerful it requires 4 HP.  However adding 1 white pip to all force rolls is now beginning to step on the toes of the acetic and the sage. The acetic gets that power at the bottom of their tree and they can't have more than 3 encumbrance.  The sage gets it earlier but it only lasts for an encounter if they meditate beforehand.  remember they have similar abilities and not even they get that many extra pips that frequently.   This power needs to be EVEN MORE situational or costly so players of those specializations feel good about using those talents.  I also have not seen any prior items or relics that perform this effect so i'm going to assume those talents are the most powerful versions of these types of abilities.  I could be wrong and if I am point me to the source. Perhaps this effect allows the wearer to convert an extra 3 advantage on combined force checks into force pips? Or maybe it generates one additional white per session and at the cost of 2 strain and a conflict it ALSO generates one black pip.  As far as mods go, i'd hold off on making mods until the base item is done that way you know what item you are working with.  Mods should be the icing on the cake for most items, not the reason you buy them, though this isn't always true. 

 

2 hours ago, jayc007 said:

I also think this is probably over powered... I would consider dropping it to 1 LS and 1 ds per encounter or even per session with 2 strain and 2 conflict if they are utilized. If you want to use one you have to use both hence the conflict. (And conflict can actually be very useful... as long as it is kept low your character will continue to go lighter... or high to go lower). My seeker hunter is a paragon after constantly taking conflict intending to stay neutral.

 

how's about stabilizing agent

HP: 3

effect: commit FD: add ○ to all force rolls

mods: 2 "add A to combined force checks" mods

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56 minutes ago, Stormbourne said:

 

how's about stabilizing agent

HP: 3

effect: commit FD: add ○ to all force rolls

mods: 2 "add A to combined force checks" mods

Well to be honest I wanted to say that's not much different but really you are giving up a chance at 2 LS pips or 1 ds pip for a guaranteed LS pip. So really that isnt that bad... and then the add 2 advantage... that is not really over powered either but some might think it could be... however, still I suggest waiting on the mystic book which will maybe have crafting rules for this sort of item in the unlimited power book. It's about a month of patience for an item that would fall within the rules that ppl can't really complain about since IT IS IN the rules.

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2 minutes ago, jayc007 said:

Well to be honest I wanted to say that's not much different but really you are giving up a chance at 2 LS pips or 1 ds pip for a guaranteed LS pip. So really that isnt that bad... and then the add 2 advantage... that is not really over powered either but some might think it could be... however, still I suggest waiting on the mystic book which will maybe have crafting rules for this sort of item in the unlimited power book. It's about a month of patience for an item that would fall within the rules that ppl can't really complain about since IT IS IN the rules.

not really the patient type and if i get a triumph on this here roll it might even get added to the book

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1 hour ago, Stormbourne said:

not really the patient type and if i get a triumph on this here roll it might even get added to the book

As in ffg might put it into a finished book? A book that was printed months ago? A book that has been on a boat from China for the past 2 months? A book that is about to be released?

I really think that that is most unlikely.

And I KNOW that many people would have a fit if ffg were to take the book back and rewrite it just for this one item that you are trying to homebrew since that action would set unlimited power back probably half a year or more before it would be realeased. @Absol197 is probably first among those who would rise up in rebellon.

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As any good fae being, I must come when my name is spoken thrice, and so I have returned as summoned.  What is being...

 

5 minutes ago, jayc007 said:

As in ffg might put it into a finished book? A book that was printed months ago? A book that has been on a boat from China for the past 2 months? A book that is about to be released?

I really think that that is most unlikely.

And I KNOW that many people would have a fit if ffg were to take the book back and rewrite it just for this one item that you are trying to homebrew since that action would set unlimited power back probably half a year or more before it would be realeased. @Absol197 is probably first among those who would rise up in rebellon.

O_O

 

NO!  NONONONONONONO!!!

If that were to happen...the devastation I would wreak would become legend.  I don't even want to hear of it! 

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2 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

As any good fae being, I must come when my name is spoken thrice, and so I have returned as summoned.  What is being...

 

O_O

 

NO!  NONONONONONONO!!!

If that were to happen...the devastation I would wreak would become legend.  I don't even want to hear of it! 

hehehehe the troll is strong with me

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Just want to point out quickly that this "mods: 2 "add A to combined force checks" mods" is pretty powerful in the hands of a force sensitive crafter with Manipulate, as it'd be a straight +2 advantages to spend improving crafted items.

Edited by Darzil

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7 minutes ago, Darzil said:

Just want to point out quickly that this "mods: 2 "add A to combined force checks" mods" is pretty powerful in the hands of a force sensitive crafter with Manipulate, as it'd be a straight +2 advantages to spend improving crafted items.

manipulate its self is kinda OP for crafting items "spend 2 pips to add triumph" but yes two advantages isn't anything to sneeze at either

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6 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

manipulate its self is kinda OP for crafting items "spend 2 pips to add triumph" but yes two advantages isn't anything to sneeze at either

I wonder if manipulate will work with the assumed crafting rules in UNLIMITED POWER? That could be sweetly over powered

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