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Think about how that would interact with other abilities.  There are some powers that only need 1-2  FP to activate and be useful.  The Ascetic automatically gets 2 FP on every force check.  With these robes, an Ascetic with 2 FD has 2 FP for, say Influence, and 2 FD to reduce the difficulty of the Discipline check.

I think you should consider what ErikModi had to say.  These are some massive power-ups you are proposing.  Why not just play the game?  Is there something in the game that needs addressing?  

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11 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

Think about how that would interact with other abilities.  There are some powers that only need 1-2  FP to activate and be useful.  The Ascetic automatically gets 2 FP on every force check.  With these robes, an Ascetic with 2 FD has 2 FP for, say Influence, and 2 FD to reduce the difficulty of the Discipline check.

I think you should consider what ErikModi had to say.  These are some massive power-ups you are proposing.  Why not just play the game?  Is there something in the game that needs addressing?  

not really im just creating a ton of ideas to see what works. learning how to refine ideas in this forum. and as a bonus objective get something added to the game

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Yes this is completely unbalancing. If you want more force get more xp.

Either talk to your GM and start with higher xp or play the game and earn more...

I dont think you have to learn to interact with this forum, most of us are straight forward and friendly.

However, most of us will either ignore or become irritated if someone asks for input only to ignore it.

So with that said, yeah... Play the game more so you understand why people think this is waaaaaaaay to powerful for most games. Sure if your playing a 3000xp force wizard kotor style game it could fit, but it would still be like the holy grail... It would basically be the finale bringer.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

not really im just creating a ton of ideas to see what works. learning how to refine ideas in this forum. and as a bonus objective get something added to the game

The problem here is twofold:  one of narrative, the other of mechanics (or, as the parlance goes, "fluff" and "crunch" respectively).

Narratively, there aren't really "magic items" in Star Wars.  Sure, if you delve into certain Legends sources, Sith/Nightsister Alchemy/Sorcery can create objects imbued with the Force that have magic-like effects, but they're pretty rare, fairly limited in their power, and wholly unnatural (which means absolutely drowning in the Dark Side).  Most Star Wars fans dislike it when the Force gets too scientific (midichlorians) or too mystical (godlike Force-Wielders who embody aspects of the Force).  There's a middle ground, where it's still mystical, but not outright Space Magic, which tends to discourage items that are blatantly "mystical" in theme.  Video games, especially of the RPG variety, tend to get a pass, because increasing equipment is vital to increase stats and power, so having equipment that boosts your Force Use in a video game doesn't necessarily mean it's a Force-Imbued Magic Item (and the Legends canon policy has long been that while a game's events may be canon, the game mechanics, including gear and its associated stat increases, are not).

Mechanically, this system manages to maintain the razor-edge balance between Force-Users and Non-Force-Users, which is deceptively difficult.  Most people think of "Jedi" and "Sith" and think Prequel era Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace Windu, Darth Maul, and Palpatine, or OT-era Darth Vader.  Who are not only explicitly described in-universe as some of the most powerful and talented Jedi/Sith of their age, but are the main characters of the films, so they're supposed to be awesome and accomplish all kinds of cool stuff.  People tend to ignore all the Jedi who got killed in the arena on Geonsis, especially that one guy who got shot down by Jango Fett, despite having an active lightsaber in his hand (you know, the thing Jedi use to thumb their nose at blaster bolts?)  People also tend to ignore that characters like Han, Lando, Chewie, Jango Feet, (arguably) Boba Fett, and Leia before it was revealed she's Force-Sensitive accomplished things just as good, and in some ways better, than what the major Jedi characters also accomplish.  The point I'm making is, Force-Sensitives, Jedi, Sith, what have you, are not "superbeings," should not routinely be solving every problem by pulling a random new Force power out of their colon (this was the main problem with Bantam-era Legends, authors took Vader's boast that "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force" a little too literally, and also forgot that it was a frelling Sith Lord who said it).  If you want to be a "Force Wizard" in this game, there's nothing stopping you. . . but you'll probably need to mostly or completely fill out the Sage or Seer tree, and invest a hundred or so XP in Force Powers to boot, before that build really pays off.  Just like you can be a Wedge Antilles-caliber fighter pilot. . . you'll just need to fill out most or all of a piloting-ability-dedicated Specialization and invest a lot of points in at least two skills to get there.  Since everything is accounted for in XP in this system, handing out anything for free has the potential to fatally unbalance the system.

The other aspect is that a lot of "awesome" can be done purely on the narrative side, with expenditure of Advantage, Threat, Triumph, or Despair.  For example, I give you one of the most awesome moments in a video filled with awesome moments:

Do you need a special, separate power to do that?  No, not really.  But as GMs and players narrate a fight, and a character spends advantage to give a Boost or Setback to an ally or enemy, the results of those can be narrated as pieces of awesome like throwing your lightsaber to quickly block an attack meant for an enemy.  Or just a cool description of the talent that lets you use Parry or Reflect against attacks on an Engaged ally.  If you use the Move power to move an enemy one range band a way, it can be a light Force Shove like we see Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan do on battle droids in the prequels, or it be a Starkiller-esque Force shockwave that sends the opponent flying and cartwheeling through the air.  It's all up to how the individual table wants to describe things.

Now, obviously, your game is your game, and we're not going to kick in your door and tell you you're having wrong bad fun if you include something like this.  It's your table, do whatever you like.  But be aware a character with an item like what you're proposing will be dangerously overpowered compared to the rest of the table, so the GM will either have to step up threats to challenge that one player, with the result that everyone else will be helpless against these foes, or have enemies so weak that this one player will carve through them effortlessly, making everyone else at the table wonder why they even bothered to show up.  In comparison, by the time the Force Battlemage character has invested enough XP to become a really dangerous threat, the Gunslinger character has invested enough XP (and probably credits) that they can mow through mooks like they had an Infinity Stone, the Starfighter Pilot character has invested enough XP that they can one-shot a Star Destroyer, and the Diplomat PC can defuse a budding interstellar war with a smile and witty quip.  I exaggerate some, but you see where I'm going with this.

In summation, this is NOT the trope you should want to invoke:  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards

Edited by ErikModi

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i understand the idea of the jedi curve (who gets that reference) , and that dealing with anything needs to keep its position in mind at all times during creation, but i haven't seen any armour crafted for squishies (to throw in another fandom) only for tanks, yes their armour is more encumbering but they have a massive threshold for that. the only powers i have seen to limit a "mage" force user is empty soul and iron soul from the consulars ascetic, and i know that these kinds of force user aren't supposed to rely on items like others are but we still have the Holocrons (the atypical force user item), the Bardottan Sphere, and the Grimoire of Syclos, but not armour of similar value?

 

and in my opinion the current version is horribly OP as the last iteration appeared to be, in that if you encounter a situation that would upgrade the difficulty of your force check you can sacrifice your power temporarily to make that single roll easier

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First, there are no penalties to wearing armor.  None.  At all.  Whatsoever.  No proficiencies, no encumbrance (worn armor counts as zero encumbrance, basically), no check penalties, zip, zilch, nada.  Also, armor comes in such wide variety that you can find or make just about anything that will provide a mechanical armor benefit without being a suit of stormtrooper armor.  "Armored Clothes" exist in all the core rulebooks, if memory serves, and the image for that is basically Han Solo's everyday wear.  With the Armor crafting rules from Keeping the Peace, you can make just about anything.  A Jedi Master in my campaign (based on and named after Clone Wars Aayla Secura) wears the same kind of tight, scant leathers she wore, and I built them using the armor rules so they actually provide fairly decent protection.  So aside from a lack of Toughness talents in a given tree, how "squishy" a wizard-type character is is really up to them.

Second, Holocrons are a completely different animal from any kind of regular gear.  There's a reason it's a starting bonus for a whole group of people rather than an item you can just find or buy.  A Holocron is an interactive instruction matrix with a near-sapient personality (sometimes more than one) embedded in it designed to teach secrets and knowledge just as effectively as a living tutor.  Constructing one is a time-consuming, labor-intensive process that requires utter mastery of the Force to get extremely precise alignments to make the whole thing work.  It's not a "magic item" strictly speaking, but it's pretty darn close.  "An armor of similar value" just straight up doesn't exist*, because there just isn't anything in Star Wars lore that approaches the complexity and efficiency of a holocron.  Even building a lightsaber is literal child's play in comparison.

Third, if your Wizard gets magic Jedi Robes, why can't the "tank" get a magic lightsaber that, say, nullifies the Strain cost of Parry and Reflect?  And increases the amount of damage they can ignore with those talents?  Why can't the sniper get a magic blaster rifle that ignores Soak?  Lightsabers can ignore Soak, so that's just fair.  Why can't the fighter pilot install a magic shield generator on his fighter that gives him 4 shields per arc instead of 1?  Why can't the Diplomat get a magic necklace that prevents upgrades to difficulty for Negotiation checks?  Because these things break the game like Bane broke Batman (too soon?).

Fourth, Upgrades to difficulty are VERY rare, on Force checks doubly so.  Basically, Upgrades to skill checks only happen under one of two conditions that I'm aware of:  1) you're rolling an opposed check against someone who has ranks in the skill in question, in which case their Proficiency (yellow) dice count as Challenge (red) dice, and their Ability (green) count as Difficulty (purple).  2) The GM flips a Destiny Point to Upgrade the difficulty of your check.  In which case, yes, the GM just decided to make that check harder, but now YOU have a Light Side Destiny Point you didn't have before, so it still evens out.  And if I understand what you're saying here, you want this armor to allow you to Commit a Force Die to Downgrade the difficulty of a Force Power Check. . . which is really a total wash, and actually WORSE more often than not (I think), since most Combined Force Power Checks let you spend one Force Point for a Success or Advantage, and you're more likely to get 2 Force Points than 1, and a Challenge Die is more likely to add zero or 1 Failure or Threat to a roll, so just ROLLING the Force Die you would be Committing is more advantageous to getting a successful roll.  (I may be wrong on this. . . dice percentage theory has never been my strong suit.  I love science, but I don't speak its language.  But even so, losing a die from a Dice Pool is probably, statistically, worse than just taking the Upgrade.)

Now, if you're really looking at increasing Force Power checks that are combined with skills, there is equipment that can bolster skills.  One thing you can get from crafted armor is an automatic Advantage when using certain skills.  Not guaranteeing that the skill you want to to roll with your Force Dice will be on that list, but if there are certain Force Powers you're using consistently with certain skills, comb over the various equipment lists to see if there's a piece of gear that will give you a bonus rank, or a Boost die, or an automatic symbol of some kind, whatever.  Since Combined Force Power Checks usually boil down to Success and Advantage, NOT Force Points, increasing your chances of having uncancelled Success and Advantage, in this particularly narrow subsection of the game, directly increases your "power."

*Okay, technically I'm lying.  In Legends lore, there's Orbalisk armor, which is basically Dark Side parasites that bond to the host and form a lightsaber-impervious shell around them, with the downside that the creatures keep breeding on your body and will eventually cover you head to toe, suffocating you, and that they draw on your own life energy and you need to channel the Dark Side into them to keep them from devouring you, and that they occasionally send you into homicidal, berserker rages.  But they do enhance your ability to use the Force, if you're willing to put up with all those drawbacks.  Even then, I'd say Orbalisk armor, at best, would add one or two Dark Side pips to a Force Check.

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As evidence of the fact that adding raw Force points to a roll is rare, note that we do not have a single Signature ability to do it.  I think it's likely that one of the Mystic Signature Abilities will do so, because if the mechanic is going to exist anywhere, that's the most logical place to me.  But let's consider what that means.

Theoretically, if that is one of the Mystic signature abilities, then when fully upgraded, it might add two (maybe we can stretch it to three) free Force points to your Force power checks for, say, at maximum, an encounter.  But most likely up to 4 or 5 rounds.  The cost obviously will start at 2 Destiny points once per session, but it might be droppable to 1 Destiny Point, and may require a Hard skill check.

So at best, this hypothetical ability, when fully upgraded, would effectively read:

"Once per session, you may spend 1 Destiny Point and make an Average (DD) Knowledge (Lore) or Discipline check.  If you succeed, add [OOO] to all Force power checks you make for the remainder of the round and the next four rounds."

And what cost would you pay for this ability?  Well, assuming that the two node-points are right next to each other, that's a bare minimum of 100 xp.  Each Signature Ability costs 130 xp to fully upgrade, so bare minimum this is costing a character 230 xp, before you take into account the price of Force powers to make use of the ability, and the skill ranks needed to activate the effect or use those powers.

However, with more potent Signature Abilities, the nodes tend to be further apart.  If they end up being in the two furthest positions, that's a minimum of 280 xp before Force powers.  For a once-per-session ability that costs a Destiny Point and an action, and might fail.

As a rule of thumb, no item, especially one meant to be semi-commonly available, should invalidate a Signature Ability.  So if I'm at all close on what the Mystic will have, we should be very careful about adding free Force points at will.  And if they don't have something like this, that also said something: adding free Force points to multiple checks is too potent for even a Signature Ability for the most Force-Wizardy career in the game.   That means it's a BFD.

 

EDIT:  I'm sorry, I skipped over your concern regarding the "mage" of the group not having fun armor, didn't I?  Well, let me offer the option of Armored Robes.  They're in the Core Rulebook, and have Soak 2, Defense 1, Encumbrance 5, and 2 Hard Points.  Pretty darn good for 4,500 credits, and they look quite spiffy, to boot!  The stock image of a Protector on page 72 is modeling a set for you, and you can't deny he looks bad-***!

Yes, that Encumbrance of 5 means it drops to 2 when worn, so your Ascetic can't wear armored robes and also have a lightsaber.  But, if you spring to make them Superior (which incidentally puts the final price for the set at 9,500 credits, right around the 10,000 credit price-point you seem to be shooting for), the Soak bumps up to 3 and the Encumbrance drops to 4, so you can have your robes and your glowstick, too!  And seriously, 3 Soak 1 Defense from your armor is a big deal.  Plus you have an extra Hard Point to play around with.

Just because your armor doesn't directly boost your Space Magic doesn't mean it's not made for you!

Edited by Absol197

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1 hour ago, Absol197 said:

EDIT:  I'm sorry, I skipped over your concern regarding the "mage" of the group not having fun armor, didn't I?  Well, let me offer the option of Armored Robes.  They're in the Core Rulebook, and have Soak 2, Defense 1, Encumbrance 5, and 2 Hard Points.  Pretty darn good for 4,500 credits, and they look quite spiffy, to boot!  The stock image of a Protector on page 72.

Yes, that Encumbrance of 5 means it drops to 2 when worn, so your Ascetic can't wear armored robes and also have a lightsaber.  But, if you spring to make them Superior (which incidentally puts the final price for the set at 9,500 credits, right around the 10,000 credit price-point you seem to be shooting for), the Soak bumps up to 3 and the Encumbrance drops to 4, so you can have your robes and your glowstick, too!  And seriously, 3 Soak 1 Defense from your armor is a big deal.  Plus you have an extra Hard Point to play around with.

Just because your armor doesn't directly boost your Space Magic doesn't mean it's not made for you!

I.....think my Ascetic knows what he is going to buy when he comes across another 800 credits.

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2 hours ago, ErikModi said:

First, there are no penalties to wearing armor.  None.  At all.  Whatsoever.  No proficiencies, no encumbrance (worn armor counts as zero encumbrance, basically), no check penalties, zip, zilch, nada.  Also, armor comes in such wide variety that you can find or make just about anything that will provide a mechanical armor benefit without being a suit of stormtrooper armor.  "Armored Clothes" exist in all the core rulebooks, if memory serves, and the image for that is basically Han Solo's everyday wear.  With the Armor crafting rules from Keeping the Peace, you can make just about anything.  A Jedi Master in my campaign (based on and named after Clone Wars Aayla Secura) wears the same kind of tight, scant leathers she wore, and I built them using the armor rules so they actually provide fairly decent protection.  So aside from a lack of Toughness talents in a given tree, how "squishy" a wizard-type character is is really up to them.

that is true but as many would understand it doesn't fit the feel of a consular to be a tuft of flesh bobbing around somewhere inside a ball of unbreakable steel and leather. that's more the guardian's roll 

 

2 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Second, Holocrons are a completely different animal from any kind of regular gear.  There's a reason it's a starting bonus for a whole group of people rather than an item you can just find or buy.  A Holocron is an interactive instruction matrix with a near-sapient personality (sometimes more than one) embedded in it designed to teach secrets and knowledge just as effectively as a living tutor.  Constructing one is a time-consuming, labor-intensive process that requires utter mastery of the Force to get extremely precise alignments to make the whole thing work.  It's not a "magic item" strictly speaking, but it's pretty darn close.  "An armor of similar value" just straight up doesn't exist*, because there just isn't anything in Star Wars lore that approaches the complexity and efficiency of a holocron.  Even building a lightsaber is literal child's play in comparison.

while yes these are valid points the holocron serves as an example showing items of this quality exist in universe (also i like how you use the straw man argument here and only use the one item that some what supports your claim)

 

2 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Third, if your Wizard gets magic Jedi Robes, why can't the "tank" get a magic lightsaber that, say, nullifies the Strain cost of Parry and Reflect?  And increases the amount of damage they can ignore with those talents?  Why can't the sniper get a magic blaster rifle that ignores Soak?  Lightsabers can ignore Soak, so that's just fair.  Why can't the fighter pilot install a magic shield generator on his fighter that gives him 4 shields per arc instead of 1?  Why can't the Diplomat get a magic necklace that prevents upgrades to difficulty for Negotiation checks?  Because these things break the game like Bane broke Batman (too soon?).

let me be clear i do not want to design the kyber saber, because it is far more challenging to design something that is pushing the rules without breaking them then it is to design something that lies outside of the rules entirely

 

2 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Fourth, Upgrades to difficulty are VERY rare, on Force checks doubly so.  Basically, Upgrades to skill checks only happen under one of two conditions that I'm aware of:  1) you're rolling an opposed check against someone who has ranks in the skill in question, in which case their Proficiency (yellow) dice count as Challenge (red) dice, and their Ability (green) count as Difficulty (purple).  2) The GM flips a Destiny Point to Upgrade the difficulty of your check.  In which case, yes, the GM just decided to make that check harder, but now YOU have a Light Side Destiny Point you didn't have before, so it still evens out.  And if I understand what you're saying here, you want this armor to allow you to Commit a Force Die to Downgrade the difficulty of a Force Power Check. . . which is really a total wash, and actually WORSE more often than not (I think), since most Combined Force Power Checks let you spend one Force Point for a Success or Advantage, and you're more likely to get 2 Force Points than 1, and a Challenge Die is more likely to add zero or 1 Failure or Threat to a roll, so just ROLLING the Force Die you would be Committing is more advantageous to getting a successful roll.  (I may be wrong on this. . . dice percentage theory has never been my strong suit.  I love science, but I don't speak its language.  But even so, losing a die from a Dice Pool is probably, statistically, worse than just taking the Upgrade.)

upgrading checks is more common than you would think skill vs skill is one of the most common and is very prominent when versing adversaries which will usually have the adversary quality further upgrading the check, but this can also happen with minions who have ranks in listed skill equal to there head count, there is also highly disadvantageous environmental factors like navigating through a jagged crevasse, firing blind, or the gm being a prick with destiny.

as for being more advantageous to keep the force dice:

a challenge dice has a 1/12 chance for nothing, 1/3 (4/12) chance one thing either failure or threat, 1/2 (6/12) chance for two things, and a 1/12 chance for despair, and a force dice has a 2:1 ratio for one pip against 2 pips making a mode (average) of 1, making a low power force roll useful (can counter/actively assist in a roll) 5/12 times and a high power roll useful in 11/12 times

Edited by Stormbourne

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The things you find tooling around bored.

The Jal Shey are a minor Force using group from Legends; based on what little was explored about them, Force and Destiny's definition of Consular fits them very well. They were also known as craftsmen, often creating reliable armor to protect themselves, because most of them preferred non-violence.

latest?cb=20060804195120

While Dungeons and Dragons may not have mages wear armor, Star Wars isn't so particular. I actually think I home-brewed this very armor, but I lost it when my old computer broke.

(Incidentally, KotOR, which disallowed Jedi from wearing armor, was based heavily on Baldur's Gate, a game set in the Forgotten Realms. The Sith Lords introduced the above armor as a workaround, as well as the Jal Shey to give it a lore-friendly reason why.)

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17 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

that is true but as many would understand it doesn't fit the feel of a consular to be a tuft of flesh bobbing around somewhere inside a ball of unbreakable steel and leather. that's more the guardian's roll 

Except that, with no penalties to skills, Force abilities, or anything else for wearing armor, "role" is a fluid concept at best.  There's no reason a Force Wizard type character can't decently protect himself, just like there's no reason a Jedi Guardian can't learn some Force Powers or social skills to broaden his utility beyond "use glowbat on bad guy."  That's the great strength of this system, and why my group switched to it from Saga:  you're not pigeonholed into being just one thing, you can spend your XP pretty freely to create as broad or specialized a character as you like.  In fact, once you get to certain XP amounts, it's pretty much required that you branch out, as there's only so many skills/talents/abilities/powers available that reinforce one particular activity.  Also, as mentioned, there are enough printed armor options, and enough flexibility in the armor construction rules, that you can have some decent defenses without being "in a ball of unbreakable steel."  Worn armor is an important mechanic in this game, and choosing not to use it is a limited, and limiting, concept.  As I mentioned, I have a Jedi Council member in crafted combat leathers, and a PC who's very proud of his "genuine nerf-hide" leather jacket, and it and his clothes are crafted armor with attachments and mods to supplement his stealth skills.

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while yes these are valid points the holocron serves as an example showing items of this quality exist in universe (also i like how you use the straw man argument here and only use the one item that some what supports your claim)

Except not.  Holocrons are a completely different animal from everything else.  You literally cannot apply their construction methods, or what makes them so effective, to anything else.  A sapient holographic teacher built into a suit of armor won't do diddly-squat for that armor's protective ability or its wearer's Force abilities.  And I didn't pick on the other items because I haven't read about them in the books because, frankly, I don't care.  (About Force magic teams in general, I mean.)

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let me be clear i do not want to design the kyber saber, because it is far more challenging to design something that is pushing the rules without breaking them then it is to design something that lies outside of the rules entirely

Except that what you're proposing lies outside the rules entirely.  That's what we've been trying to tell you.

Quote

upgrading checks is more common than you would think skill vs skill is one of the most common and is very prominent when versing adversaries which will usually have the adversary quality further upgrading the check, but this can also happen with minions who have ranks in listed skill equal to there head count, there is also highly disadvantageous environmental factors like navigating through a jagged crevasse, firing blind, or the gm being a prick with destiny.

Adversary upgrades for COMBAT checks only, if I'm not mistaken.  Which, yes, is a real pain in combat, but doesn't really matter the rest of the time.  And it's just part and parcel of game design.  If the GM sets you up against a bad guy with three ranks in Adversary and Soak 7, when no one in the party has weapons with Breach or Pierce and weapons that do 6 base damage, he intends for this to be a VERY tough fight (or he's just a jerk).  Just like 3.x D&D. . . if the DM sets you up against a monster with DR 10/+1 and SR 10 when the party has no magic weapons, you know he intends for this to be a very tough fight (or he's just a jerk).  And flipping Destiny Points is NOT the GM being a jerk. . . the game is based on the idea that players and DMs will flip Destiny Points back and forth, and one side hogging all of them and refusing to flip them to deny the other side the chance to is an adversarial mentality that really has no place in tabletop roleplaying.  Environmental effects are usually handled via Setback dice, not Difficulty Upgrades, I think. . . but I could be wrong, I admit I'm not up on that section of the rules.

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as for being more advantageous to keep the force dice:

a challenge dice has a 1/12 chance for nothing, 1/3 (4/12) chance one thing either failure or threat, 1/2 (6/12) chance for two things, and a 1/12 chance for despair, and a force dice has a 2:1 ratio for one pip against 2 pips making a mode (average) of 1, making a low power force roll useful (can counter/actively assist in a roll) 5/12 times and a high power roll useful in 11/12 times

But an Upgrade via Destiny Point is only changing one Difficulty to a Challenge.  With two or more Force Dice, that's a breeze to overcome.  Yes, if you're dealing with lots of ranks in an opposed roll or lots of Adversary talents in a Combat Check, it gets progressively harder to overcome. . . but that's the point.  Opponents with lots of ranks in a skill you're rolling against or lots of Adversary talents are supposed to be challenges, are supposed to be enemies you have a hard time confronting.  That's why what you're proposing is a horrible, game-breaking idea. . . it sucks the difficulty out of the hardest foes the GM can send against you.  In all, utter, complete seriousness:  should a gear choice be the difference between being utterly curb-stomped by Darth Vader, or utterly curb-stomping him in return?

17 hours ago, Swordbreaker said:

latest?cb=20060804195120

(Incidentally, KotOR, which disallowed Jedi from wearing armor, was based heavily on Baldur's Gate, a game set in the Forgotten Realms. The Sith Lords introduced the above armor as a workaround, as well as the Jal Shey to give it a lore-friendly reason why.)

To be fair, KotoR didn't exactly disallow Jedi from wearing armor, they just limited certain Force Powers (mostly the more "Wizardy" ones) from being used while wearing "armor" instead of "robes."  Jal Shey and Zeison Sha armors were added to KotoR II to compensate, having lower armor bonuses than others, but still allowing you to use all Force Powers, letting you hit a "Magic Knight" sweet spot if you were good with other character choices.  (And the KotoR games were based on a heavily modified version of WotC's D20 Star Wars, which had no restrictions on Force use with armor).  But even then, these armors didn't really increase your Force ability, if I recall correctly. . . and this in, as I mentioned, an RPG where bonuses were being handed out left and right for high-level characters.

Edited by ErikModi

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I feel I should also point out, when it comes to "Force Artifact" armor, Orbalisks are really the only things, in the entire Legends continuity (that I am aware of), that even approach the kind of thing you're looking for, and they are intrinsically Dark Side, creatures mutated and corrupted by long-term exposure to highly concentrated Dark Side Force energy.  Even the Jensaari, who fetishized their armor like Jedi fetishize their lightsabers, really only made armor with the Cortosis quality, nothing that enhanced their ability to use the Force.  Other Force Artifacts are generally MacGuffins, items of great power that exist not to be used, but to give the heroes something to race the bad guy to obtain.  A great example of this is the Kaiburr crystal from Splinter of the Mind's Eye, a gem that enhances one's Force power so much it explicitly brings Luke Skywalker back from the dead, and allows him to do the same to Leia.  And only works in one specific temple on one specific planet, so once the characters took it away from there, it became just a large, pretty gem.

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You said: 

that is true but as many would understand it doesn't fit the feel of a consular to be a tuft of flesh bobbing around somewhere inside a ball of unbreakable steel and leather. that's more the guardian's roll 

The consular's role isn't to be a force wizard or "mage" that's the mystic's roll.

A consular is there to consult hence the name.

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1 minute ago, TheShard said:

You said: 

that is true but as many would understand it doesn't fit the feel of a consular to be a tuft of flesh bobbing around somewhere inside a ball of unbreakable steel and leather. that's more the guardian's roll 

The consular's role isn't to be a force wizard or "mage" that's the mystic's roll.

A consular is there to consult hence the name.

in any game there are three rolls one can play as with minor variations on the details and presentation of those core three. this three are the ubermensch, the tuft of flesh bobbing around somewhere inside a ball of unbreakable steel and leather, the gadgeteer/tools master, how relies on their surroundings and intellect to make a solution come out of thin air, and the unique, these guys understand the universe on a fundamental level and this understanding grants them powers others see as magic. and yes while each tree adds elements for the other rolls the consular as a mage falls under the unique class of play along with the mystic (even more so cause the consular has more force power/universe understanding then the mystic)

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Since your is obviously your own canon add whatever you want including werewolves and faeries for all i care. 

However your not really looking for input, if I'm wrong you amnesty have it, which its a consensus of **** no. Do what you will from here on out its your game table...

I'm outtie...

Edited by TheShard

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14 minutes ago, Stormbourne said:

in any game there are three rolls one can play as with minor variations on the details and presentation of those core three. this three are the ubermensch, the tuft of flesh bobbing around somewhere inside a ball of unbreakable steel and leather, the gadgeteer/tools master, how relies on their surroundings and intellect to make a solution come out of thin air, and the unique, these guys understand the universe on a fundamental level and this understanding grants them powers others see as magic. and yes while each tree adds elements for the other rolls the consular as a mage falls under the unique class of play along with the mystic (even more so cause the consular has more force power/universe understanding then the mystic)

That's. . . just an incredibly limiting way to approach the role-playing experience.

First, you're not building a cog in a machine, you're building a character.  In storytellun, do you know what they call characters who have only one aspect to them?  Bad characters.  A good character has depths, flaws, strengths, interests, hobbies, emotions, and backgrounds.  They are not defined as just one thing, but move between being several things all at once over the course of their lives.  You know, like real people do.

Second, even if there is some benefit to building towards a roll from a mechanical standpoint, your definitions match none of the regular RPG roles.  A tank may excel at at taking damage, but that's not all he can do.  A Face may excel in social situations, but they probably aren't completely incompetent outside them.  A DPS may excel at heaping harm upon their enemies, but can probably do other things.  A healer keeps his friends alive and well, and has other things to contribute (starting with the knowledge that lets them do that.)

Third, this isn't an MMO, where your class can do only one thing, and all progression is limited to doing that one thing slightly better.  This is a narrative-driven storytelling experience, where what your character can do us limited only by your vision of what that character's interests an abilities are, how much XP you have to spend, and your imagination.

Fourth, the way thus system breaks up careers and specializations, and the extra specializations found in career books, means there's tremendous number of "roles" to build towards, without even getting into buying multiple specializations, which is all but required.  Even within a single career, different specializations can fill vastly different roles, and adding specializations from different careers just increases the versatility.

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5 hours ago, ErikModi said:

That's. . . just an incredibly limiting way to approach the role-playing experience.

First, you're not building a cog in a machine, you're building a character.  In storytellun, do you know what they call characters who have only one aspect to them?  Bad characters.  A good character has depths, flaws, strengths, interests, hobbies, emotions, and backgrounds.  They are not defined as just one thing, but move between being several things all at once over the course of their lives.  You know, like real people do.

Second, even if there is some benefit to building towards a roll from a mechanical standpoint, your definitions match none of the regular RPG roles.  A tank may excel at at taking damage, but that's not all he can do.  A Face may excel in social situations, but they probably aren't completely incompetent outside them.  A DPS may excel at heaping harm upon their enemies, but can probably do other things.  A healer keeps his friends alive and well, and has other things to contribute (starting with the knowledge that lets them do that.)

Third, this isn't an MMO, where your class can do only one thing, and all progression is limited to doing that one thing slightly better.  This is a narrative-driven storytelling experience, where what your character can do us limited only by your vision of what that character's interests an abilities are, how much XP you have to spend, and your imagination.

Fourth, the way thus system breaks up careers and specializations, and the extra specializations found in career books, means there's tremendous number of "roles" to build towards, without even getting into buying multiple specializations, which is all but required.  Even within a single career, different specializations can fill vastly different roles, and adding specializations from different careers just increases the versatility.

this rule of three ins't like any of that which you just stated

as i said above each tree draws elements of the other rolls, for instance the paladin is a ubermensch unique, while a battle mage is a unique ubermensch.

the way i interpret this is where do you draw your power? do you rely on yourself, and your physical body that's ubermensch territory, do prefer to outsmart your assalents with traps, plans, stealth and more you  will like a tolls master, or is it your spirit that keeps you going, that is so refine you can manifest it in innumerable ways. and we all draw for one or more of these you are not locked into a single roll, that wouldn't be fun and near impossible for many people

i find this a very useful tool (and so does my GM) as it allows me to understand what my friends are playing as, this way i know effective counterplay and how to use my abilities to make an epic synergy with their characters

and no this doesn't lock a character into a single immutable roll we a players breath life into the characters we play as we change so must they this is a useful way to see how they have been played not how they will be played forever

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I think you are saying that characters can focus on their body, mind, or something nebulous and magical.  Which is saying basically nothing about their role in a party.  I can be the face of my party though my good looks, my deceptive nature, or my charm spells.  And I certainly don't see what it has to do with these items you are proposing.

Can I suggest you take these ideas to your GM, as that person will be the one who can say whether they belong in your game? 

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What you just stated isn't anything like what commonly-accepted game roles are defined as, and more the point, that's still not what this system in particular is about.

Moreover, "Magic" is not a role in and of itself.  Magic in most systems will let you fill other roles with varying degrees of success, or supplement your chosen role.  "Cure Wounds" spells may be the bread and butter of a Cleric's healing, but they have access to skills and equipment that can do the same job, just over a longer period of time.  Wizards are so powerful in most iterations of D&D, especially at higher levels, because the number of roles they can fill at any given time is limited only by the number of spell slots they have, the spells they know, and how creative the player is in using them.  Most tellingly to me, you omit the role of "Face" completely.  Most important in role-playing games that aren't defined exclusively by the "home invasion" playstyle (kick in the door, kill everything, steal everything that's not nailed down and bring a crowbar just in case), the Face handles the social interactions, nullifies the need to fight by defusing volatile situations before they occur, and makes fights easier by making friends and allies.  A role the Consular is designed to fill perfectly.

But what's more, none of this has anything whatsoever to do with this item you're talking about, which just has no place in Star Wars.  Narratively, the kind of thing you're proposing just doesn't exist, not even in Legends at its most ridiculous.  And Legends at it's most ridiculous had this guy:

latest?cb=20061025214956

And this:

500?cb=20060801173208

And her:

499?cb=20070618115054

And. . . whatever the heck this is:

305?cb=20060419050855

Mechanically, it's horrifically broken and serves no purpose that just spending XP on talents, skills, and Force Powers doesn't accomplish on its own.  There are plenty of items your Jedi Battlemage (and don't even get me started on what's wrong with that phrase) can put in his/her "chest slot" that will be advantageous within the existing rules, either already printed in their entirety, with the addition of the right attachments and mods, or using the Armor Crafting rules to make something to taste.

What you propose fails both thematically and mechanically.

Edited by ErikModi

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@Stormbourne I'm sorry if this is jerk-ish, but...

posting an item without question or comment as a new thread is mostly just confusing.  Changing the entirety of the first post makes the thread incomprehensible to new readers.  More than half of the comments in this thread are about a post that no longer exists.  In the future, maybe formulate what you are trying to get out of posting and try to communicate it.  Like "Hey guys.  My gaming group believed that every type of character should have a super-armor.  Does this armor fit the Star Wars universe?"  Or whatever it is you are hoping to learn.

Edited by TheSapient

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2 hours ago, TheSapient said:

@Stormbourne I'm sorry if this is jerk-ish, but...

posting an item without question or comment as a new thread is mostly just confusing.  Changing the entirety of the first post makes the thread incomprehensible to new readers.  More than half of the comments in this thread are about a post that no longer exists.  In the future, maybe formulate what you are trying to get out of posting and try to communicate it.  Like "Hey guys.  My gaming group believed that every type of character should have a super-armor.  Does this armor fit the Star Wars universe?"  Or whatever it is you are hoping to learn.

two seconds...done

and i'm the only one that really generates ideas, the others don't know the lore well enough to know what could be possible

Edited by Stormbourne

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Okay, as a thought experiment, let's look at the closest thing in Legends that equates to what you want, the Orbalisk Armor, and hypothetically stat it up, as accurately to how it was portrayed in the Darth Bane novels as possible.

First, the Orbalisks were lightsaber proof, so the armor has the Cortosis quality.  Easy.

Second, Orbalisks are parasites that infect their host, so the soak and defense rating depends on how widespread the infection is.  Starting at one soak and zero defense for only having one or two Orbalisks attached, up to eight soak and four defense at what we'll call full-body coverage, everything but hands, feet, and head.  Soak doubles once a month as the Orbalisks breed, up to 8, and defense equals half soak, round down.  Dice pools related to the Orbalisks themselves use soak as ability/difficulty dice, defense as boost/setback dice.

Third, Orbalisks try to consumer their host, but can be fed off the Dark Side instead.  Each day, Orbalisks roll to deal wound damage to their host, ignoring soak.  The host can spend Force Points generated from Dark Side pips only to reduce the wound suffered.

Fourth, Orbalisks do increase raw Force power, but only for the Dark Side.  Add two Dark Side Force Pips to any Force check.  Alternately, take no strain for generating Force points from Light Side pips.

Fifth, Bane found himself flying into uncontrollable rages while wearing the Orbalisks, and unable concentrate on long-term, delicate tasks.  Under stressful conditions, make a Discipline check against the Orbalisks current difficulty, or enter a berserk rage and kill or destroy everything within reach.

Sixth, Bane had to wear specially-designed devices to keep the creatures away from his face, hands, and feet.  If such devices are not worn, one month after full-body coverage is reached, the character has their Agility reduced by one as the Orbalisks coating their hands and feet rob them of fine motor control, and dies of suffocation as the Orbalisks cover their face and prevent them from breathing.

Finally, Orbalisks are very distinctive and almost impossible to remove.  Characters gain boost dice equal to the Orbalisk armor's defense to recall a character wearing it.  Removing the creatures requires a Medicine check against the Orbalisks current difficulty.  Threat and Despair on this roll can be spent to inflict wounds on the host.

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