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Kieransi

The big Clone Wars thread.

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TL;DR: Do it. Strike me down with all of your Clone Wars ships and your journey to a complete Star Wars game will be complete. 

Yeah, I know there's probably other threads discussing stuff like this. But I think all of them had one mistake in common: they talked about the prequels. Episodes I, II, and III, although fine movies in my opinion, are often considered the absolute worst Star Wars movies ever. I think FFG shares this opinion. 

So I want to create a central place where we can talk about something that most of us Star Wars fans actually like: Clone Wars! Whether it's the movie, the show, the LEGO sets, the REAL Battlefront II, Ahsoka, clones, lightsaber combat, starship combat, battlecruiser combat, political intrigue, fun scum and villainy, or something else, most Star Wars fans have a reason to like Clone Wars. 

I think that it's a crying shame that Clone Wars has been mostly snubbed by this game for so long. The game has already had the "original trilogy, thematic timeline, no weird time/space wormholes" thing thrown out the window with the inclusion of the sequels trilogy. If Kylo and Vader can fly together, why can't Anakin and Vader fight each other? The Republic and the CIS would be great factions to have, and Scum would of course still be contentedly scumming around in all their scumminess. The first wave could easily have a "Most Wanted"-style pack with tons of cards for co-opting older ships into the new waves. For example, Y-Wing, ARC-170, and Z-95 Headhunter for the Republic, and the Firespray (hello, Firespray fix!), YV-666, and maybe IG-2000 for the CIS. 

And if you're saying this won't fit the game, you're a little too late. We already have Ventress and Cad Bane frequently sitting on top tables in tournaments, when both characters died before the Empire even started.

So, what do you all say? Can we agree Clone Wars is awesome? Aren't there tons of characters we could use from that timeline? And custom card creators: repost 'em here! Let's talk! I want to see all those custom Naboo Fighters, Oddball ARC-170s, Jedi Starfighters, and more! 

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The Clone Wars cartoon did much to restore my love of that era. When I think of the tragedy of Anakin's fall, I remember him as the daring and heroic general shown in the show. This is where I feel we see Obi Wan in his true element, outplaying and sassing his opponents. Then we had new characters who grew on me.

It's actually kind of interesting that there is a fair amount of things in the show that I dislike how they start, yet love where they went with it. I don't like how flippant Ashoka started, but love where she went from there. I hate how they explain how Maul returns, but his return leads to some of my favorite moments in the show and several in Rebels. Even the first season or so I feel "eh" on, but as it goes it hits its stride and turns out some good Star Wars.

The Clone Wars has its flaws, but it did so much for me. Well worth the watch.

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4 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

TL;DR: Do it. Strike me down with all of your Clone Wars ships and your journey to a complete Star Wars game will be complete. 

Yeah, I know there's probably other threads discussing stuff like this. But I think all of them had one mistake in common: they talked about the prequels. Episodes I, II, and III, although fine movies in my opinion, are often considered the absolute worst Star Wars movies ever. I think FFG shares this opinion. 

So I want to create a central place where we can talk about something that most of us Star Wars fans actually like: Clone Wars! Whether it's the movie, the show, the LEGO sets, the REAL Battlefront II, Ahsoka, clones, lightsaber combat, starship combat, battlecruiser combat, political intrigue, fun scum and villainy, or something else, most Star Wars fans have a reason to like Clone Wars. 

I think that it's a crying shame that Clone Wars has been mostly snubbed by this game for so long. The game has already had the "original trilogy, thematic timeline, no weird time/space wormholes" thing thrown out the window with the inclusion of the sequels trilogy. If Kylo and Vader can fly together, why can't Anakin and Vader fight each other? The Republic and the CIS would be great factions to have, and Scum would of course still be contentedly scumming around in all their scumminess. The first wave could easily have a "Most Wanted"-style pack with tons of cards for co-opting older ships into the new waves. For example, Y-Wing, ARC-170, and Z-95 Headhunter for the Republic, and the Firespray (hello, Firespray fix!), YV-666, and maybe IG-2000 for the CIS. 

And if you're saying this won't fit the game, you're a little too late. We already have Ventress and Cad Bane frequently sitting on top tables in tournaments, when both characters died before the Empire even started.

So, what do you all say? Can we agree Clone Wars is awesome? Aren't there tons of characters we could use from that timeline? And custom card creators: repost 'em here! Let's talk! I want to see all those custom Naboo Fighters, Oddball ARC-170s, Jedi Starfighters, and more! 

The problem isn't the timeline, it's the factions.

 

The Republic has two successor "states", Empire and Rebellion, while the CIS has none.

There is a reasonable argument to be made for both Empire/Republic and Rebels/Republic as the same faction.

- The Republic's army is literally the same army as the Empire's, and this is a wargame. We play with the soldiers, and the soldiers are the same.

- The Rebellion holds the Republic's values, which is while irrelevant in a wargame, the feel of the universe sorta demands these factions to be aligned. Also, several named characters from the Republic era serve the Rebellion (but then again, the head of state is the Empire's)

CIS on the other hand has very little connection to the main factions, but some players feel that the many characters working for the CIS who are scum is  a reason to group them together (which is a non-connection, since the best known scum also worked for the Empire, including all the Bounty Hunters, and the whole Mandalorian civilization)

Furthermore, the CIS is even worse of a villain faction than the Empire, with very few characters that could be named pilots, especially if you consider the aforementioned Scum characters to be separate. Their character's are almost exclusively generals, making them a more suitable faction for something like Armada.

 

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13 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

As an exercise, name 10 unique pilots for the CIS faction that are not Bounty Hunters. No Wookieepedia.

Dooku, Dooku's Droid, Dooku's Geonosian wingman, Greivous, Ventress, Magnaguard, other Magnaguard, Hyena Bomber who Ventress talks to, Scavenger Droid leader. Those are all specific, uniquely skilled pilots. That's without Wookieepedia to tell me their specific names. 

I really doubt that without a lot of extended universe material, you could name 10 Imperial pilots just by seeing the original trilogy that don't get similarly far-fetched.

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8 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

As an exercise, name 10 unique pilots for the CIS faction that are not Bounty Hunters. No Wookieepedia.

General Greivous

Count Dooku

Lott Dodd (could fly a Sheathipede)

Moralo Eval

OK I'm stuck, but then:

Jango Fett

Zam Wessell

Aurra Sing

Lastly, so what?  The CiS can be the faceless droid faction just like the Empire is the faceless soldier faction.

 

10 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

The problem isn't the timeline, it's the factions.

 

The Republic has two successor "states", Empire and Rebellion, while the CIS has none.

There is a reasonable argument to be made for both Empire/Republic and Rebels/Republic as the same faction.

- The Republic's army is literally the same army as the Empire's, and this is a wargame. We play with the soldiers, and the soldiers are the same.

- The Rebellion holds the Republic's values, which is while irrelevant in a wargame, the feel of the universe sorta demands these factions to be aligned. Also, several named characters from the Republic era serve the Rebellion (but then again, the head of state is the Empire's)

CIS on the other hand has very little connection to the main factions, but some players feel that the many characters working for the CIS who are scum is  a reason to group them together (which is a non-connection, since the best known scum also worked for the Empire, including all the Bounty Hunters, and the whole Mandalorian civilization)

Furthermore, the CIS is even worse of a villain faction than the Empire, with very few characters that could be named pilots, especially if you consider the aforementioned Scum characters to be separate. Their character's are almost exclusively generals, making them a more suitable faction for something like Armada.

 

Only if you refuse to think outside the box of the 3 current factions.

Make 2 more factions, and be done with it.  Why??:

A.  You can retread existing design space and use past successes and failures to get things better balanced.

B.  Two more factions would increase the variety of what is on the table because there are 5 options instead of 3.

C.  Any notion of timeline issues has been tossed out the window with dead characters from the Clone Wars (Assajj) and the blending of FO and Resistance with the OT.

D.  Purists can avoid those factions and play OT only, or whatever.

E.  There are a lot of great ships available that would be better served by NOT trying to shoehorn them into the current factions.

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24 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

The problem isn't the timeline, it's the factions.

 

The Republic has two successor "states", Empire and Rebellion, while the CIS has none.

There is a reasonable argument to be made for both Empire/Republic and Rebels/Republic as the same faction.

- The Republic's army is literally the same army as the Empire's, and this is a wargame. We play with the soldiers, and the soldiers are the same.

- The Rebellion holds the Republic's values, which is while irrelevant in a wargame, the feel of the universe sorta demands these factions to be aligned. Also, several named characters from the Republic era serve the Rebellion (but then again, the head of state is the Empire's)

CIS on the other hand has very little connection to the main factions, but some players feel that the many characters working for the CIS who are scum is  a reason to group them together (which is a non-connection, since the best known scum also worked for the Empire, including all the Bounty Hunters, and the whole Mandalorian civilization)

If you'll notice, this is an open-ended thread. It's really just here as a place to discuss possible future Clone Wars material. If you think that the Republic should be a sub-faction of the Empire, or that the CIS should be a subfaction of Scum, that's fine. I'm not suggesting one specific idea, I'm creating a place for people to discuss many ideas.

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1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Only if you refuse to think outside the box of the 3 current factions.

Make 2 more factions, and be done with it.  Why??:

A.  You can retread existing design space and use past successes and failures to get things better balanced.

B.  Two more factions would increase the variety of what is on the table because there are 5 options instead of 3.

C.  Any notion of timeline issues has been tossed out the window with dead characters from the Clone Wars (Assajj) and the blending of FO and Resistance with the OT.

D.  Purists can avoid those factions and play OT only, or whatever.

E.  There are a lot of great ships available that would be better served by NOT trying to shoehorn them into the current factions.

If we add 2 independent factions... fine, be it.

 

But then do it that way. No Rebels or imps flying around with Anakin.

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1 minute ago, RufusDaMan said:

If we add 2 independent factions... fine, be it.

 

But then do it that way. No Rebels or imps flying around with Anakin.

Agreed.  No subfactions.  The CiS and Republic are stand alone factions.

Occasionally the ships might cross factions (N1 for Rebels with Leia, retcon the ARC to Republic as well), but the pilots wouldn't (Anakin is Republic, as are Clone Troopers in ARC-170s).

 

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Independent factions might be fine, but I feel like there is less source material for these things.

 

Then there is also the issue of technological advancements. The Core X-wing Wave 1 products are ridiculously simple, yet these ships supposed to represent a technological jump compared to Clone Wars era ships.

The Jedi interceptor should realistically have 1-2 hulls at a maximum. N1, similar. V-Wing also. Shield values of 1 or 0. How do you think ships without good dials (again, TIE fighter is an improvement) good stats will compete, especially if we keep ourselves to the 12 point minimum.

 

I just can't see this work out very well.

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2 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Independent factions might be fine, but I feel like there is less source material for these things.

Then there is also the issue of technological advancements. The Core X-wing Wave 1 products are ridiculously simple, yet these ships supposed to represent a technological jump compared to Clone Wars era ships.

The Jedi interceptor should realistically have 1-2 hulls at a maximum. N1, similar. V-Wing also. Shield values of 1 or 0. How do you think ships without good dials (again, TIE fighter is an improvement) good stats will compete, especially if we keep ourselves to the 12 point minimum.

Who said that??

The galaxy really doesn't see any significant change in technology in 25,000 years. . .

The Rebels are scrapping by trying to get ahold of anything they can.

The Empire builds new ships to act as symbols of The New Order.

No one really said they were better.  In fact, after years of war, they could be worse due to resource depletion.

And lastly, of course, gameplay>>fluff.

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4 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Independent factions might be fine, but I feel like there is less source material for these things.

 

Then there is also the issue of technological advancements. The Core X-wing Wave 1 products are ridiculously simple, yet these ships supposed to represent a technological jump compared to Clone Wars era ships.

The Jedi interceptor should realistically have 1-2 hulls at a maximum. N1, similar. V-Wing also. Shield values of 1 or 0. How do you think ships without good dials (again, TIE fighter is an improvement) good stats will compete, especially if we keep ourselves to the 12 point minimum.

 

I just can't see this work out very well.

Keep in mind that in Star Wars, technology doesn't actually advance that fast. So I don't really think "old" ships would be that underpowered. Keep in mind, YT-1300s were around before Episode I.

Thanks for sharing your opinions though. They are definitely valid and any content added to this thread is appreciated. 

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Just now, RufusDaMan said:

Independent factions might be fine, but I feel like there is less source material for these things.

 

Then there is also the issue of technological advancements. The Core X-wing Wave 1 products are ridiculously simple, yet these ships supposed to represent a technological jump compared to Clone Wars era ships.

The Jedi interceptor should realistically have 1-2 hulls at a maximum. N1, similar. V-Wing also. Shield values of 1 or 0. How do you think ships without good dials (again, TIE fighter is an improvement) good stats will compete, especially if we keep ourselves to the 12 point minimum.

 

I just can't see this work out very well.

They did it just fine with the ARC, 

technology in the starwars universe really does not advance that much. Most of the changes done for transition between republic and empire were to remove all visual reminders of the old republic. the change over was not really done for technological jump reasons and more for image.

Remember the time between the clone wars and the original trilogy is extremely small in terms of military hardware life cycles. The fact there was crazy different ships between the clone wars and the OT is more to due with how bad a writer Lucas was then anything else. Their should be countless numbers of clone wars era ships flying around. the rebels only having new tech (cutting edge in the form of the x-wing) is really quite crazy they should have tons of ARC's and what not in their fleet. at least the y-wing was featured in the clone wars era to help soften the mental disconnect.

 

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WH40K has more than a dozen armies, I don't know why we are limited to 3.

There is much more material for CIS and Republic than for Scum, especially when it comes to widely recognisable ships and heroes.

Power level is not an issue in a game in which beat up ancient scum freighters are competing on more than equal terms with advanced military-grade crafts. No reason for V-wing to have less hull than a TIE or Porax less firepower than an X-wing when we have ******* Nym.

Timeline is already beyond saving with sequel content AND TCW exclusive content, like for example Asajj Ventress.

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2 minutes ago, Icelom said:

The fact there was crazy different ships between the clone wars and the OT is more to due with how bad a writer Lucas was then anything else.

Or, probably more likely because they were made in reverse order and separated by 30 years.

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So, I just wanted to say, to all the people who don't want the Clone Wars in this game - your opinion is of course equally valid and much appreciated. 

But I think I may have misconveyed the point of this topic. 

This topic is not meant to be a discussion of whether or not Clone Wars is ok to put in this game. Rather, this is meant to be a place where people who do think that Clone Wars should be in this game can discuss how that will happen. 

So let's move on to some ideas. Which ships do you think would be nice to have if this game expanded to include Clone Wars? The top 2 on my list would have to be the ARC-170 and the V-19 Torrent. 

Also, custom cards - anyone have any? @Odanan? @AwesomeJedi? Did you make any custom cards pertaining to the Clone Wars era? 

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My only real issue with the PT factions being in the game is that they would have a limited run of ships considering how the focus of films, comics, animated works and the like are all OT or ST focused. Aside from that, sure lets have the PT era ship love. I am very pro FFG putting out more toys that give me options, just think of the fun kind of fan made stuff like Heroes of the Aturi Cluster that could spring up, even campaigns that went through the timelines of the three trilogies. As for pilots I think it doesn't matter too much, the Tie pilots were mostly nobodies and I've seen enough posts asking whoeven is 'so and so', including people not knowing the X-wing series pilots. 

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