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GeneralBergfrühling

Tie Punisher was punished once again

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Guys Chill. Trajectory Simulator is the promised fix. Adapt. Improvise. Overcome.

I have two working lists with Punishers, should you accept the way of competitive Jank:

Triple Punishers (98):

Black Eight Squadron + Trajectory Simulator + Harpoon Missiles + Bomblet Generator + Long-Range Scanners (31)
Black Eight Squadron + Trajectory Simulator + Extra Munitions + Harpoon Missiles + Thermal Detonators + Long-Range Scanners (33)
Black Eight Squadron + Trajectory Simulator + Extra Munitions + Harpoon Missiles + Seismic Charges + Ion Bombs + Long-Range Scanners (34)

QD Black Eights (97):

Quickdraw + Adaptability + Fire Control System + Special Ops Training + Lightweight Frame
Black Eight Squadron + Trajectory Simulator + Harpoon Missiles + Bomblet Generator + Long-Range Scanners (31)
Black Eight Squadron + Trajectory Simulator + Extra Munitions + Harpoon Missiles + Thermal Detonators + Long-Range Scanners (33)

Why Black Eight and not Cutlass? So they can fight against Rho Gunboats. Thermal + Ion is a serious deal esp when you hit Nymranda or Imp Aces.

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, GeneralBergfrühling said:

Bravo, FFG, you successfully prevented once again Tie Punishers from being played!

So scum and rebels have special tricks for their bombs and you, FFG, introduced a special new keyword that archives the one and only goal: Prevent the Tie Punisher pilot Deathrain from doing the free barrel roll after launching!

The efford you invested pays off!

Now honestly, haven't you realized that the TIE Punisher needs a HUGE buff to be seen on tables? The possibility to launch and drop in a single round was there - which would have been interesting especially for Deathrain. Not only this isn't possible, but deathrain can't even do his mild trick after launching. So, compared to scum and rebels, imperial heavy bombers fall even further behind...

Shame! Shame! Shame!

I mean, even with TS the TIE Punisher is garbage.  Nothing short of an aces pack is going to help it at this point.  It's gotten a few soft buffs (LWF, unguided rockets and minefield mapper) but its not nearly enough for it to see competitive play.

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I would give the Punisher something unique.   

A couple of Titles:

TIE/IT

tie punisher only; title

0 points

When attacking with a missile or torpedo secondary weapon, you may spend a crit to add a jam token.

 

SYNCHRONIZED STRIKE LAUNCHERS

TIE Punisher only; title

add 4 ordnance tokens to this card.

When attacking with a missile or torpedo secondary weapon, you may discard up to two ordnance tokens (from any source).  For each ordnance token discarded, add a hit result.

 

 

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FAQ didn't do anything new. Launching is not dropping, it is instead of dropping, just reading the cards they wouldn't work. This isn't like Minefield mapper and "once per opportunity" even, though that's a rule I agree with. This just, as usual, offered explicit clarification for those people who would buck the system. If you want to ignore the FAQ for casual play, go for it, but too many unintended interactions and open-wording is why FFG needs so much red ink in the first place. 

That said, the fact that nobody seems to have really bothered to try and use and/or abuse TS with punishers probably speaks to the weakness of the punisher's frame. It still has the advantage of being the only small base ship which can deploy more than one Trajectory unit, same with Minefield Mapper, etc. LWF and UG also help them out, but while much more passible they still are fundamentally weak. Their cost for their upgrade bar is a little too high, they got the shortest end of the reposition stick for what they do, and they lack both the EPT and great pilot abilities some other heavy bombers have. On paper, they're better than BS/Fs, they cost less with more upgrade options, and have similar dials. Now, I haven't paid too close attention, but some quick skimming shows the Resistance Bomber while not super popular (because it seems fairly well balanced all things considered) seems like a middle of the pack ship and had some squads do okay. The Punisher is still very limited in play. Even for funsies, I bet it's not popular because it seems kind of clunky.

Compared to all the other Heavy Bomber ships, with the squad of two heavy bomber ships being the top level cancer of the hour, I think the weakness in the Punisher is pretty obviously lack of uniqueness. It can only do okay in it's own niche, and the sum is not greater than it's parts. It also lacks in real crazy good pilot abilities. This should be expected, it only has two, but Deathrain and Redline aren't very flashy. Now any Punisher can throw stuff out it's front-guides even. For people brave and patient enough to actually play him, I reckon Deathrain does actually give you some interesting tactical opportunities but it still lacks the reach of **** like the ol' SLAM bomb, hucking bombs with a 5↑ or weird AdSens genius placement. Redline is out-modded by missiles that don't need you to spend the TL anyway. So the only thing which can help the Punisher is an Aces pack, the question is how FFG wants to address it and what parts they want to address. 

Obviously another couple pilots are in order. No idea what their abilities would be, but it should be some interesting stuff, hopefully unique. If there was some way to give their "aces" EPTs, this would also be good. Other stuff though I think is a touchy subject. Either reload or tokens could be good, and I think the ability to be like a more flexible B/SF and Silos could be neat - trade a little bit of firepower from one type of ordnance to get multiple shots with the others. Being able to fire more ordnance would be good, the RPG actually does this - they can hit with much more explosives in a single shot and carry the ammo to back it up, but I agree that in some cases the ability to just go "know what's better than one harpoon? 2 Harpoons!" might not shake up the game a lot. 

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Special Systems Training 0pt. Title

TIE Only

Once per round when you are dealt a damage card, you may discard one of your equipped <bomb>, <missile>, or <torpedo> Upgrade cards to discard that damage card without resolving it.  You may only equip this upgrade if your hull value or '6' or higher.

 

Basically it would represent the ability to hold the ship together as it is being damaged and weapons systems are failing.  It would solve the biggest problem that the Punisher and Bomber have which is the inability to survive long enough to use up their equipped ordnance.  Also it effectively reduces the cost of each ordnance (and ordnance token) by basically allowing it to also be a hull upgrade.

 

Advanced Bombing Scope 0pt Modification

TIE Only. Imperial Only

Whenever you drop or launch a bomb token so that an enemy ship overlaps it, that ship suffers 1 damage.

 

Basically this finally gives the empire their own cool bombing trick and damage buff, but requires a fair bit of precision to be used effectively.  I purposefully omitted a 'once per round' clause to allow devastating cluster mine drops.  These are a lot harder for TIE bombers and punishers to pull off because of the lack of SLAM.  Deathrain would become an absolute beast with this.

 

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12 hours ago, zubalove said:

They ignore fixing the ship, don't they? Ordinance Tubes could have been TIE Punisher and BS/F -17 Only. It wouldn't have been a big deal. Just added a little more to the ship. Nope. Nothing.

Ordnance Tubes as title for the Tie Punisher for 0 points. The ship itself is expensive enough. No extra tax needed - unless you want to beat a dead horse.

Even the mechanics like "you may fire each equipped secondary weapon as long as the conditions to fire them are met" would be cool. You would still have a pointgrave, but it would be rather dangerous to attack them head-on. Redline would become a real threat.

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Since this has turned into a brainstorm for how to fix the Punisher, what about a zero-point title that would give the lower PS ships a chance to use ordinance against higher PS ones? Something worded similarly to Snap Shot, like this:

After an enemy ship executes a maneuver, you may acquire a target lock on that ship if it is within Range 3.

I don't know if that fixes the ship, but it certainly would give it some action economy, and give both the generics and the named pilots a shot at Alpha Striking higher PS ships.

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A choice of 2 titles would be good.  

The first makes it a missile / torp specialist.

1 pts.  You may treat 'TL Attack' as 'Attack'.  For any unused ordnance upgrade slots you may place 1 ordnance token on an equipped upgrade.

This will enable easy firing of any missile with focus and GC but no rerolls.  GC or LWF would be a tough call on this, the system slot is fairly open.

A Cutlass with GC and 5 Harpoons would come in at 26pts.

The second a bombing specialist

0 pts.  When a ship is hit by your bomb, the defending ship suffers the effect of the bomb and rolls 1 attack die and suffers any hits or crits rolled.   For any unused ordnance upgrade slots you may place 1 ordnance token on an equipped upgrade.  

This would want UGR, LWF and TS along with Proton Bombs in my opinion but others may differ.

A Cutlass With UGR, LWF, TS, PBx4 is 31pts.

Both versions make them hard hitting but I don't believe they would be overpowered.

 

Edited by Storgar

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12 minutes ago, Storgar said:

A choice of 2 titles would be good.  

The first makes it a missile / torp specialist.

1 pts.  You may treat 'TL Attack' as 'Attack'.  For any unused ordinance upgrade slots you may place 1 ordinance token on an equipped upgrade.

This will enable easy firing of any missile with focus and GC but no rerolls.  GC or LWF would be a tough call on this, the system slot is fairly open.

A Cutlass with GC and 5 Harpoons would come in at 26pts.

The second a bombing specialist

0 pts.  When a ship is hit by your bomb, the defending ship suffers the effect of the bomb and rolls 1 attack die and suffers any hits or crits rolled.   For any unused ordinance upgrade slots you may place 1 ordinance token on an equipped upgrade.  

This would want UGR, LWF and TS along with Proton Bombs in my opinion but others may differ.

A Cutlass With UGR, LWF, TS, PBx4 is 31pts.

Both versions make them hard hitting but I don't believe they would be overpowered.

 

For the last friggin time... ORDNANCE

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other than VI or Crackshot what would you even give them for an EPT?
They have horrid greens so PTL isnt a wise move. Predator is an option but thats 3pts more for a minor boost on an already expensive model. Expertise? Ouch my points. Lone Wolf might get them killed even harder if you tried to benefit from it.

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11 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

other than VI or Crackshot what would you even give them for an EPT?
They have horrid greens so PTL isnt a wise move. Predator is an option but thats 3pts more for a minor boost on an already expensive model. Expertise? Ouch my points. Lone Wolf might get them killed even harder if you tried to benefit from it.

4N0IsVT.jpg

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19 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

other than VI or Crackshot what would you even give them for an EPT?
They have horrid greens so PTL isnt a wise move. Predator is an option but thats 3pts more for a minor boost on an already expensive model. Expertise? Ouch my points. Lone Wolf might get them killed even harder if you tried to benefit from it.

Intensity for Deathrain, free Evade after his free Barrel Roll from dropping the bomb.

Saturation Salvo for Redline.

Those would be my picks at least.  Not great fixes but a start.

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Modular Loadouts

Modification.   TIE Punisher Only

<Missile>, <Torpedo>, and <Bomb> upgrades cost -1.

You have +1 Agility for each discarded <Missile>

You roll+1 attack die when using your Primary weapon for each discarded <Torpedo>

Gain 1 shield token each time you discard a <Bomb> (even if you already have max shields)

 

It wouldn't necessarily help it survive the initial engagement, but it would mean that if you can get a couple shots off you'll have a bit more of a chance (risk/reward).

or maybe:

Blaze of Glory

TIE Only

When you would be destroyed, if you have not made an attack this turn, you may instead make an attack with a Primary or Secondary weapon.  Then destroy this ship.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

other than VI or Crackshot what would you even give them for an EPT?
They have horrid greens so PTL isnt a wise move. Predator is an option but thats 3pts more for a minor boost on an already expensive model. Expertise? Ouch my points. Lone Wolf might get them killed even harder if you tried to benefit from it.

First of all:

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

The blatantly obvious one... Deadeye

Then:
 

PTL would be really good with TIE MK.II

Intensity is also nice, allowing it to boost and use UGR, (or just get a defensive focus/evade). It would have a decent staying power, If for example Deathrain could use Adv. Sensors to drop a bomb, barrel roll, boost, get a focus/evade and move. If you also have AT, or LWF, it could significantly make him tougher.

Lightning Reflexes would allow for a real crazy turn with Redline

 

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

4N0IsVT.jpg

And of course, Ruthlessness is always a good option for any Imp ship.

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14 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Modular Loadouts

Modification.   TIE Punisher Only

<Missile>, <Torpedo>, and <Bomb> upgrades cost -1.

You have +1 Agility for each discarded <Missile>

You roll+1 attack die when using your Primary weapon for each discarded <Torpedo>

Gain 1 shield token each time you discard a <Bomb> (even if you already have max shields)

 

It wouldn't necessarily help it survive the initial engagement, but it would mean that if you can get a couple shots off you'll have a bit more of a chance (risk/reward).

or maybe:

Blaze of Glory

TIE Only

When you would be destroyed, if you have not made an attack this turn, you may instead make an attack with a Primary or Secondary weapon.  Then destroy this ship.

 

 

I like.  Makes them more long-lasting, but only if you're good enough to get shots with them.

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I am happy to see that there is some love for the TIE Punisher by the community.

Right now, any other imperial ship performs better for the points you would invest in the Punisher. There is no special trick you need to have or you want to have. The other factions can bomb better and their ships have more firepower or even PWT - so ne need to load both - missiles and bombs; as you would do with the Punisher.

I see good ideas here flowing around to make this ship a decent one.

 

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