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Tie Punisher was punished once again

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What the ****...

Quickest turnaround time they ever had with a FAQ, nerfing one of the most toxic card interactions in the game, and we’re complaining that an already dead ship is now more dead? That must be one thankless job...

Listen, if you wanna play trajectory simulator Deathtain at game night, no ones gonna stop you. He’s still just very mediocre. Heck, if it were me you could play it at Regionals and I still wouldn’t stop ya. 

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1 minute ago, Ailowynn said:

What the ****...

Quickest turnaround time they ever had with a FAQ, nerfing one of the most toxic card interactions in the game, and we’re complaining that an already dead ship is now more dead? That must be one thankless job...

Listen, if you wanna play trajectory simulator Deathtain at game night, no ones gonna stop you. He’s still just very mediocre. Heck, if it were me you could play it at Regionals and I still wouldn’t stop ya. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

What the ****...

Quickest turnaround time they ever had with a FAQ, nerfing one of the most toxic card interactions in the game, and we’re complaining that an already dead ship is now more dead? That must be one thankless job...

Listen, if you wanna play trajectory simulator Deathtain at game night, no ones gonna stop you. He’s still just very mediocre. Heck, if it were me you could play it at Regionals and I still wouldn’t stop ya. 

The nerfing was quick and awesome. This thread isn't about the great job they did on that fast FAQ. Nor is it pulling thankfulness.

So this thread to you defines the designers in the OP and posters eyes as having "one thankless job"? Well, in the case of the Punisher, yes. They never got a thanks for it nor deserved one; they know this.

In contrast, I think the OP and others have eloquently made the point that Trajectory Stimulator could have been designed and written as simply dropping a bomb with the 5 straight template in lieu of making a new mechanic of Launch which could have in turn done two things: 1) simplify the game and keep it consistent, and 2) allowed an under-powered ship (the Punisher) to get it's best ship to use his ability (barrel rool) after a TS bomb drop.

It's not an unreasonable question. In fact, it is not only quite an obvious one, but a clearly healthy one to boot.

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56 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

 

Not really an FFG design. It exsisted in only one Star Wars video game, SW: Galactic Battlegrounds as the Tie Interdictor. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/IT_Interdictor_starfighter

 

The Punisher just needs a (free) title that gives you reload on your action bar and lets you reload after a boost or something like that. Maybe a title that lets you reload bombs :)

The thing is:

  • The TIE Punisher isn't currently good (no-one's disputing this)
  • The TIE Punisher should be made better
  • The TIE Punisher shouldn't be made better in a way which either turns it into a TIE Bomber (by making it cheaper) or Alpha Star-Wing (by giving it Reload/Reposition shenanigans). Don't ignore the TIE/sf (upgrade-based action economy), either.
  • It should be the king of the ordnance fight, but not the dogfight or the hit-and-run raid. Its job was to launch from a carrier, make an attack run through the heaviest defensive fire imaginable, and launch all the ordnance to pulverise its target.
  • I would strongly, strongly suggest sticking with its current massive ordnance capacity and allowing it to 'burn through' its ordnance loadout faster.

 

  • Current things which might be good for a heavy ordnance strike boat which no imperial ship (or even no ship in the game) has:
    • The ability to fire multiple [missile] or [torpedo] upgrades in one combat phase
    • Multiple systems upgrade slots (FCS & Accuracy Corrector for clusters a-go-go, advanced sensors/trajectory simulator for bombs, enhanced scopes/minefield mapper for mines, etc)
    • The ability to generate a Locked-forward Reinforce token (much less scary than an auzituck as it's protecting only the forward quarter)

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36 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

What the ****...

Quickest turnaround time they ever had with a FAQ, nerfing one of the most toxic card interactions in the game, and we’re complaining that an already dead ship is now more dead? That must be one thankless job...

Listen, if you wanna play trajectory simulator Deathtain at game night, no ones gonna stop you. He’s still just very mediocre. Heck, if it were me you could play it at Regionals and I still wouldn’t stop ya. 

My thoughts exactly.  No one likes the bomb meta, now we're mad the Punisher can't bomb??

21 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:
  • Current things which might be good for a heavy ordnance strike boat which no imperial ship (or even no ship in the game) has:
    • The ability to fire multiple [missile] or [torpedo] upgrades in one combat phase
    • Multiple systems upgrade slots (FCS & Accuracy Corrector for clusters a-go-go, advanced sensors/trajectory simulator for bombs, enhanced scopes/minefield mapper for mines, etc)
    • The ability to generate a Locked-forward Reinforce token (much less scary than an auzituck as it's protecting only the forward quarter)

This.  Reload has been done.  What could make Punishers special is they can do something no other ship can do.  Having enough ordnance isn't the problem.  It's getting it used before dying.

latest?cb=20160807232716

And maybe in the aces pack that makes this happen they can give Punishers deflective plating or an ace like Nym--who ignores his own bombs.

And IMHO this is the second time they killed the Punisher.  Because the ship would have been worth it if it could have Minefield Mapper mapped 4 bombs.  Which would be better than the current bomb meta, because you know where the are from the get go.  And might have made that card worth something, since obviously no one is playing it.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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i have no idea why you would WANT him to have trajectory.

He is far, far, FAR superior with adv sensors. yeah its 2pts more, big freakin' deal it gives him a focus pre-bump/red move and it lets you twist your bomb placements with pre-boosts.
TrajSim would smack himself with it unless he did a 1fwd (which leads him to be jousted out most of the time) or 3Turn away (no shot).

I run Deathrain with LWF/Unguided/AdvSensor/Bombletts a LOT and there is almost never, ever a situation where i wish i had trajsim because i almost always need to do a 4K to get a shot off AND the bomb or i need to twist that bomb to the side a bit. The 5fwd would help in exactly 1 situation -> the initial joust. Beyond that, pre-boost is way better.

Edited by Vineheart01

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8 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

i have no idea why you would WANT him to have trajectory.

He is far, far, FAR superior with adv sensors. yeah its 2pts more, big freakin' deal it gives him a focus pre-bump/red move and it lets you twist your bomb placements with pre-boosts.
TrajSim would smack himself with it unless he did a 1fwd (which leads him to be jousted out most of the time) or 3Turn away (no shot).

I run Deathrain with LWF/Unguided/AdvSensor/Bombletts a LOT and there is almost never, ever a situation where i wish i had trajsim because i almost always need to do a 4K to get a shot off AND the bomb or i need to twist that bomb to the side a bit. The 5fwd would help in exactly 1 situation -> the initial joust. Beyond that, pre-boost is way better.

Sure, I agree, but you have to admit it would be great as a potential threat and board area denial and control right? It's not the fact that Nym always got the TS bomb right where he wanted it, it was the fact that this Nymranda list made a massive impact on list-building due not only to the OP-ness of the two ships, but in how it warped the s**t out of list-building if you wanted to plan for wins. TS is a meta warping device as it destroys board-state agency when planning even back to the "which ships to take" list genesis. Add to TS TLTs, Regen, and PS, and h**l, you best just take that list and set up for the best mirror match tweaks. Would it have helped the Punisher? Probably not, but tools that are an option are far better than ones that aren't.

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only reason that list made TrajSim a problem was because of Genius - Nym was capable of moving it where he needed it, Deathrain cant do that, he either AdvSensor boosts or just settles with his current facing.

Genius no longer works with TrajSim, so that fang has been pulled from TrajSim's mouth. Without Genius, i dont see it being very useful.

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25 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The ability to fire multiple [missile] or [torpedo] upgrades in one combat phase

I wouldn't want to allow it to fire multiple missiles at that same target. That would lead to even more massive alpha strike lists that while quite possibly not actually a winning list would be rather meta warping.

Having said that I agree with the idea of somehow leveraging its massive amount of ordnance

Something like -

  • Title - After making attack with an M or T secondary weapon you may make another attack with an M or T secondary weapon at another ship within R1 of the original target. You may ignore any Attack [Target Lock] requirements for this attack
  • Title - When attacking with an M or T secondary weapon you may discard an M or T secondary weapon of the same name to acquire a target lock on the defender (basically you spend 2 to make all the discard TL ordnance not discard)
  • Title - If you miss with an M or T secondary weapon attack you may discard an M or T secondary weapon of the same name to have the attack be considered a hit (basically you spend 2 to make the secondary effects like ion or harpoon but not the damage always hit)
  • Title - It you hit with an M or T secondary weapon attack you may discard an M or T secondary weapon of the same name to assign a jam token to the defender (basically you spend 2 to make the missile also a scrambler and finally have a use for those cool raspberry jam tokens I have)
  • Title - You may attack enemy ships that you have a TL on outside of your primary firing arc with M or T secondary weapons. You roll one less red dice during this attack
  • Title - When you are dealt a face up damage card you may discard an equipped M, T, or B card to discard the damage card before it takes effect

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2 hours ago, GeneralBergfrühling said:

Canon-wise the Tie Punisher should be able to launch ordnance from all four tubes at a time. it is what it is. The firepower of four regular Tie Bombers in one single ship. The FFG game design here is a mere joke, sorry for that.

I myself try to make lists including my two Tie Punishers that isn't a autoloss - but every time I manage to optimize them out. They are just too weak for too much points.

 

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The thing is:

  • The TIE Punisher isn't currently good (no-one's disputing this)
  • The TIE Punisher should be made better
  • The TIE Punisher shouldn't be made better in a way which either turns it into a TIE Bomber (by making it cheaper) or Alpha Star-Wing (by giving it Reload/Reposition shenanigans). Don't ignore the TIE/sf (upgrade-based action economy), either.
  • It should be the king of the ordnance fight, but not the dogfight or the hit-and-run raid. Its job was to launch from a carrier, make an attack run through the heaviest defensive fire imaginable, and launch all the ordnance to pulverise its target.
  • I would strongly, strongly suggest sticking with its current massive ordnance capacity and allowing it to 'burn through' its ordnance loadout faster.

 

  • Current things which might be good for a heavy ordnance strike boat which no imperial ship (or even no ship in the game) has:
    • The ability to fire multiple [missile] or [torpedo] upgrades in one combat phase
    • Multiple systems upgrade slots (FCS & Accuracy Corrector for clusters a-go-go, advanced sensors/trajectory simulator for bombs, enhanced scopes/minefield mapper for mines, etc)
    • The ability to generate a Locked-forward Reinforce token (much less scary than an auzituck as it's protecting only the forward quarter)

TIE/IT
TIE Punisher only. Title.


When attacking with a [missile] or [torpedo] weapon, you may roll 1 additional attack dice
Your upgrade bar gains the [system] slot

0 pts

Assault Deflector Shields
TIE Punisher only.


During the activation phase, if you have any shields, you may place a Reinforce token on your ship.

 

System

2 pts

 



 

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My quick-and-dirty Punisher-fix would be a title that gives you the option to drop 2 bombs in a single turn (the first using the 3 template) and ignore 1 bomb per turn. Then take away its attack action in the combat round if it double-drops.

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1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

Yeah i'd really rather not give the punisher a double-tap. Either force it to split-fire or only let it roll +1 die rather than attack again.

I'd rather see a punisher fix be related to maneuvering or defense, not offense.

I would like the 2-shot, but agree that split fire is best.

In fact, the lore on the ship specifies the ship has Twin Linked Ordnance Dispensers.

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

I wouldn't want to allow it to fire multiple missiles at that same target. That would lead to even more massive alpha strike lists that while quite possibly not actually a winning list would be rather meta warping.

Having said that I agree with the idea of somehow leveraging its massive amount of ordnance

Something like -

  • Title - After making attack with an M or T secondary weapon you may make another attack with an M or T secondary weapon at another ship within R1 of the original target. You may ignore any Attack [Target Lock] requirements for this attack 
  • Title - When attacking with an M or T secondary weapon you may discard an M or T secondary weapon of the same name to acquire a target lock on the defender (basically you spend 2 to make all the discard TL ordnance not discard)
  • Title - If you miss with an M or T secondary weapon attack you may discard an M or T secondary weapon of the same name to have the attack be considered a hit (basically you spend 2 to make the secondary effects like ion or harpoon but not the damage always hit)
  • Title - It you hit with an M or T secondary weapon attack you may discard an M or T secondary weapon of the same name to assign a jam token to the defender (basically you spend 2 to make the missile also a scrambler and finally have a use for those cool raspberry jam tokens I have)
  • Title - You may attack enemy ships that you have a TL on outside of your primary firing arc with M or T secondary weapons. You roll one less red dice during this attack
  • Title - When you are dealt a face up damage card you may discard an equipped M, T, or B card to discard the damage card before it takes effect

I like the first idea, but would expand it to R2.

I also like to out of arc idea.  Maybe make it a mod, which kills chips, so then maybe don't worry about one less die.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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Linked Silos (Title, TIE Punisher only, 0 points) - When attacking with a [torp] or [missile] secondary weapon, you may discard up to two other [torp] or [missile] upgrade cards to add 1 attack die per upgrade card discarded.  When dropping a [bomb] upgrade card, you may drop a second bomb of the same type using the 4-straight template.  This second drop does not require you to discard another [bomb] upgrade card.

That seems fun and powerful, but not too powerful.

I still think the simplest fix is a title exactly matching the Vaksai title.

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7 hours ago, Jo Jo said:

I'm kind of fine with the Tie Punisher not seeing the light of day. The Tie Bomber on the other hand :(

I’ve tried to make a couple bomber builds. I even made an ace build to run with some other imperial aces. Nothing. It sucks even harder because they already did a bomber fix so it’s not going to really get fixed again. Such a good looking tie, and I love that it’s largely distinct from the different wings on a pod ties. 

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6 hours ago, Steelgunner said:

To my dearest, sweet FFG,

Please release an aces/veterans pack with a Punisher fix. I want to give you more money, but can't until you show them some love.

Sincerly,

  One of your many schnookieookums. :wub:

i guarantee you’ll give FFG more money before the Punisher fix is issued. 

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