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No ship that small has a cloaking device... but wait!

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1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

Well, obviously ships smaller or larger than the Falcon can do it. It's just that size that is impossible to cloak.

but the admiral says: ''that small'' which indicates that small ships in general are too small

Edited by Wookiee_Slayer

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5 minutes ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

but the admiral says: ''that small'' which indicates that small ships in general are too small

Oh, it makes no sense. But we have the illicit and Phantoms, so *shrugs*

6 minutes ago, Polda said:

Or shape.

It's the off set cockpit. Gotta be.

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10 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Oh, it makes no sense. But we have the illicit and Phantoms, so *shrugs*

It's the off set cockpit. Gotta be.

Officers are probably on a "need-to-know" basis. Maybe he just has no idea the Phantom exists. It is also a big galaxy, I probably wouldn't believe a story about a scummy pirate with a ship that can cloak.

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2 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Why would you take an imperial officer's word for what's possible with illicit upgrades?

I've always interpreted his line that way. He doesn't know of any ships that small with a cloaking device. It's one of those great worldbuilding things from ESB that shouldn't be universalized. One officer says it, therefore it's true for the whole galaxy. Boba Fett looks cool, so there must be a whole planet full of Boba Fetts somewhere

And it's like there's no way to know how many chameleons are in your house.

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56 minutes ago, DagobahDave said:

I've always interpreted his line that way. He doesn't know of any ships that small with a cloaking device. It's one of those great worldbuilding things from ESB that shouldn't be universalized. One officer says it, therefore it's true for the whole galaxy. Boba Fett looks cool, so there must be a whole planet full of Boba Fetts somewhere

And it's like there's no way to know how many chameleons are in your house.

I agree about Boba Fett, but the context is different between the two examples. One is a line meant to be universal, and then contradicted. The other is something clearly unique, and then turned universal.

The thing is, the Millennium Falcon doesn't have a cloaking device. The point of that scene is that Han is clever enough to make people wonder if he has something he can't even have. If the officer is just ignorant and cloaking devices are something the Millennium Falcon could have, then it diminishes Han's cleverness, and arguably makes him stupid too (for not getting his hands on a cloaking device). In a way, it's a "Han shot first" situation, where it's not about him being a step ahead anymore and instead someone else just being incompetent.

The TIE Phantom is an exception I'm okay with though. Not simply because I grew up with it, but because it was an exception. The officer in this scene could even know about the TIE Phantom, and still be thinking "well, that ship can't have a cloaking device, because the only small ship that has one is our own experimental one, and we're the only ones with the budget and tech to even get that far".

Edited by Jokubas

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4 hours ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

CloakingDevice ...

(1:22 -1:30)

So the millenium falcon is too smal for a cloaking device but the upgrade is small only... very weird!

(probably has to do with game mechanics more than lore)

That was 30 years ago. Technology is always advancing. 

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It is less that it is physically impossible and more that cloaking devices on small ships are very rare. the Scimitar from Ep1 had one, and it is a bit smaller than the Falcon, but it was supposed to be a one-off variant in both legends and Canon. The Stealth ship (and the later Carrion Spike based on it) was introduced with the description that "ships this small don't usually have cloaking devices", suggesting that cloaks usually are found on ships frigate sized and up. Canon also puts a Cloak on the Banshee (also smaller than the falcon)

presumably when groups go in for cloaking, they tend to stick them on big ships, for maximum combat effectiveness, and systems for small craft and fighters are not widespread enough to be widely known.

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I mean, we're talking about a guy who thought it would be a good idea to go apologize to Darth Vader in person for not being able to catch a ship that was practically already in their hangar and literally within tractor beam range. And this is a man who rose in prominence in the Imperial Navy until he was commanding a capital ship in escorting Vader's flagship. If he (and Ozzel for that matter) is the cream that rises to the top of Imperial officers, maybe Han was totally justified in rolling the dice on the matter.

Of course, as mentioned previously in this thread, we have to consider the EXACT phrasing of poor Needa when he made the comment. He didn't say 'that ship is too small to have a cloaking device' or something similar, he said 'no ship that small'. Now, that leaves JUUUUUST enough wiggle room for an explanation. If I ask you how big the last fish you caught was and you say 'the fish was that big' with your hands held apart as a frame of reference, that does not imply that every fish that you've ever caught is that big or bigger. You could just as easily keep your hands at the same distance and say 'that small' and the frame of reference would not change.

Needa considered the Falcon to be a small ship, so his perspective in the statement would have been to use the term small in his phrasing. It does not automatically imply that no ship that he considers small can have a cloaking device, just something the size of the Falcon. And it potentially makes sense. Fighters and freighters don't have the giant reactors that frigates and cruisers have. They certainly don't have the miniature suns of an ISD. When you compare ships of different sizes, the issue of scale comes into play. You can't just make a ship twice as big and weld twice as many engines on it and expect it to go just as fast, everything else grows as well, increasing the mass of the ship in a non-linear fashion.

X-Wings and TIE Fighters can zoom around with engines taking up a fraction of their size, the Falcon's takes up the whole back of the ship and it can't outrun the TIE Fighters whose engines are a fraction of its relative size. Now let us apply this to cloaking devices. A cloaking device that could cloak a Phantom (or Scum ship for that matter) would not cloak the Falcon. Two devices probably wouldn't even do the trick. Likely, you'd need 3-4 devices to ensure that the surface area of the Falcon was covered enough to avoid enemy sensors.

Now, given that the energy demands of the engines and deflectors likely take up the vast majority of the Falcon's power output, how much would these things suffer if it had to draw on 4X the power of a single cloak to turn invisible? It would be tantamount to the early years of submarine warfare, where the boats were rather swift while surfaced but slowed to an absolute crawl when submerged. The only reason they sacrificed that speed was because it gave them a measure of invulnerability. But once the speedier surface ships figured out how to counter that submersion with weapons like depth charges and sonar, the submarine rapidly found itself on the defensive as it could not maneuver itself fast enough to evade the ships nor get far enough away to be able to effectively use torpedoes.

The Falcon therefore occupies a hole in the size of ships in between fighters like the TIE Phantom and corvettes like the Carrion Spike.

Or at least that's the normal twisting and turning that we have to do with Star Wars lore to ensure everything makes 'sense'.

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7 hours ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

CloakingDevice ...

(1:22 -1:30)

So the millenium falcon is too smal for a cloaking device but the upgrade is small only... very weird!

(probably has to do with game mechanics more than lore)

That quote has been used since the anouncement of Wave 4.

As for small ship only much like barrel roll they haven't exactly played around with decloaking movements for large based ships. All decloaking moves have been for small base. Unitll they change decloakign for large ships like they did with barrel roll actions large ships will not be getting cloaking action.

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8 hours ago, Jokubas said:

The thing is, the Millennium Falcon doesn't have a cloaking device. The point of that scene is that Han is clever enough to make people wonder if he has something he can't even have. If the officer is just ignorant and cloaking devices are something the Millennium Falcon could have, then it diminishes Han's cleverness, and arguably makes him stupid too (for not getting his hands on a cloaking device). In a way, it's a "Han shot first" situation, where it's not about him being a step ahead anymore and instead someone else just being incompetent.

The TIE Phantom is an exception I'm okay with though. Not simply because I grew up with it, but because it was an exception. The officer in this scene could even know about the TIE Phantom, and still be thinking "well, that ship can't have a cloaking device, because the only small ship that has one is our own experimental one, and we're the only ones with the budget and tech to even get that far".

Alternative explanation: it's not the size of the ship, per se, but rather it's overall value/cost.

IE., you are walking along a road and hear this massive bass thumping as from subwoofers the size of wagon wheels, but it stops before you turn to look around...and you see a simple bicycle passing by and nothing else.  Some time after it turns the corner, you hear the same sound off in the distance in that general direction.  You incredulously state 'pfft, nah - no bicycle has a powered speaker system attached!  How ridiculous...'  Does that mean it's LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE for someone to attach a speaker system to a bicycle?  Of course not.  Just that it is so unlikely, and surely you would have noticed it, that this it appears impossibly unlikely in this specific situation.

Same situation, here - they are chasing a tramp freighter, of no particular value, "a piece of junk", most commonly seen hauling small amounts of random debris or a small number of uncomplaining (or not) budget passengers around the outer rim.  So the idea that it might be toting a piece of equipment worth more than an entire Star Destroyer?

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This is why I love this community :D . Always in for a good discussion on something that is undoubtebly unnessicary and staying friendly nontheless. 

Anyway I suppose you all are right with the exception of those who said that the imperials can't be trusted :P .

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An equally canonical source - The Clone Wars - has a Falcon-sized ship cloaking, but is had so many drawbacks that it was truly impractical in any kind of dogfight.

TIE Phantoms had the resources of an Empire behind them - including scientific prowess, and only a handful were actually made due to their unique crystal-based system. Thrawn's cloaking system was a revived relic, impractical for all intents and purposes.

The Falcon has a profile that's pretty much the pposite of what you want for stealth technology - a pancake that maximises its surface area in relation to its volume, from a majority of directions.

So, perhaps what the officer was really saying was, 'No ship that small has a cloaking device that we can't still detect'.

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