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sozin

Tragedy Stimulation: a Cautionary Tale

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I'm a newish player (started last january), but I'm super torn on this issue.  I'd prefer this interaction to not exist, but you really can't have judges ruling that things don't work just because they are unpopular.  I'm ok with the ffg regional ruling (I'll be there) because there was advanced notice.  But it does set a terrible precedence.   I've played a lot of other games competitively, and I've never seen anything like this.

Thanks, btw, for all that you do for the community.

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Thank you for posting this Sozin. I wish FFG had a fraction of this transparency.

I understand the temptation to use a seemingly obvious band-aid solution to fix a glaring problem. I can see that the genius/trag sim combo needs to go asap to preserve the game. But I respect the TOs who are rejecting half-measures and forcing FFG to take responsibility for this mess instead of accepting a system where TOs are now supposed to abandon the objectivity of RAW and implement their own backdoor FAQs to make up for FFG's colossal failure to communicate with its community. 

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I love X-Wing. I like playing competitivley, and taking my fun seriously. 

But dude. There comes a time when you have to realize it is Just A Game. This drama is far worse than any superlist shenanigans. 

The saddest part of all this, is that I used to say that the X-Wing community is better than (I'm not going to name names here. You can guess a couple, I'm sure)

I can't say that anymore.

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@sozin I'm proud of you. You are a sensible man after all and sometimes emotion gets the better of us. Now if you could only convince the rest of the x-wing celebrities (krayts and the rest of s&v) to have some sense you could be the saviour of x-wing!

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A post like this shows a **** of a lot of good grace, well done for writing it. The fact remains though that your initial impulse was the right one. The TOs and Judges refusing to follow the game designers lead are flat-out wrong. I dont understand the mindset of people who can't see that. It's disappointing that the issue is dividing the community, and hopefully it can get resolved sooner rather than later.

In the meantime, it's up to players and local communities to set an example. Those with the means to do so should choose not to attend tournaments who are ruling it wrong and allowing Genius and TS to work together, and make it clear to store owners and TOs that that is why you're choosing not to go. Refuse to play against it in more casual settings. Make it clear to those that choose to cheat (and we all know it's cheating in all but the most technical sense at this point) that it's not acceptable. We can't completely eliminate it at higher level events, but we can shame people enough to largely stamp this out everywhere else if we decide to do so.

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How on earth did FFG miss the interaction in the first place? I mean, there's a set number of cards TS can work with...

As a player, I'm happy with either ruling, even if it's inconsistent between events so long as it's made clear significantly prior to individual events. The list is broke either way, so it's pretty irrelevant to the meta of the event.

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18 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I don't understand why FFG is getting a free pass / shrug from all of the people shaming the TOs and the community. 

Why not direct all this public shaming at the people who actually have the power to change the rules? Or better yet, their bosses?

We have been doing that for **** rules and unclear cards for a really long time. What did it get us?

Responses like: "FFG Forums are full of whining", or just the general lack of communication we have now.
 

I think we understand that the flaw is not with the TO-s, but at least we can get them to react. FFG (seemingly) doesn't give a crap.

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25 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I don't understand why FFG is getting a free pass / shrug from all of the people shaming the TOs and the community. 

Why not direct all this public shaming at the people who actually have the power to change the rules? Or better yet, their bosses?


 Because FFG acted on this with lightning speed, by their standards. Within a week or two of this interaction becoming a problem they told us it didn't work. The people who are ignoring that ruling are the problem now. FFG have done their part, as much as they can within the constraints they are acting under.

 

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Sozin,

I am a big fan of your work on the scum and villainy podcast and working on list juggler. I have read a number of you posts here and generally agree with a lot of what you say.

I do believe you were wrong on this though. Don't get me wrong I prefer RAI to RAW on this, but its not the judge Illuminati's job within the community to change the rules (even when they are causing issues like this), thats FFG's job. Yes they are respected leaders of the rules community, but that's because they are good at what they do, and people trust them to interpret RAW. If they were to rule in favour of RAI it would harm that and could hurt their position in the community.

I respect the way you have acknowledged your error and hope that you can patch things up with the judges. We all make mistakes, particularly when we feel passionate about a topic. 

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Apology accepted, Captain Needa.

Really, now ... as worked up as everyone is about this tempest in a teacup, everyone could stand to step back, take a few deep breaths, realize that we're arguing about rules for making pew-pew noises with plastic spaceships, acknowledge that it will take some time to blow over, and then go out and have some fun with the parts of the game we enjoy and just ignore for a time what we don't.

I appreciate @sozin being big enough to publicly acknowledge stepping over the line, letting emotions get the best of him, and doing something he regrets. The rest of us can hopefully learn something from it.

Plus, you know, Darth Vader quote FTW!

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@sozin, regardless the readers stance, that is a standup post, mad props.

I agree wholeheartedly, RAI is logical and quite good for the game short-term; RAW is simply playing it safe and putting its money in for the game, long-term. Getting decisions from a multi-layered corporate structure is akin to moving a container ship in port; it cannot be piloted by the small tug, but it can be gently pushed, greatly increasing its turn radius as its labourus engines move at their consistent tepid near-dock pace. Frustrating this is to be sure. But perhaps you, Chris and Iain gave real legs to the conflict in your minority aggressive stances and interests; thus, in turn, gave the hulking ship that small, controlled push it needs.

...my money’s on that.

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X-Wing Judge/TO Illuminati? What ridiculous madness is that? Fake news.

Seriously though, making a call that even i don't like was not easy. I'm sure we'll have a definitive answer eventually and i hope this chaos has pushed it to be a bit faster. I'm sure they're not happy of the mess they've made.

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Sozin,

 

Firstly, I want to say how much I your passion and dedication to this game we love...

Secondly, I equally applaud you for your willingness to publicly humiliate yourself in pursuit of "doing the right thing"...

Unfortunately, this entire thing... that judgments from FFG have to be weighed against Rules as Written... is even an issue (or at least, such a BIG issue...) just showcases for me a bigger problem.  That problem, IMO, is the power-creep that has taken over this game, which I directly attribute to several factors...

1. Customer demand for new products at a rate that challenges FFG when it comes to producing the best product in pursuit of the best game...

2. FFG's  willingness/need to commercialize on that consumer demand at the expense of play-testing (to eliminate power-creep and the need for FAQs that explain, correct and often contradict the Rules as Written...

3. The continued over-emphasis on tournaments and tournament-style play.  Each wave that comes out seems to push the game further into its own self-justified world "X-Wing: the Game" and further away from a way to experience Star Wars.  To me, the game has become a victim of its own success, and we (the dedicated fan base /consumers) are just as much at fault as FFG.

I used to enjoy tournaments as much as I did casual play, Epic, etc...  But every day and in every way, my desire to be part of that scene has been beaten out of me.  It saddens me a bit, that I no longer enjoy that aspect of the came, but I guess we all reap what we sew.  

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It's often all too easy to become over-passionate about something. 

It's a sign of maturity to recognise that - even if after the fact. 

It's depth of character that shows through when you apologise if your excesses have caused harm. 

 

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5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

I don't understand why FFG is getting a free pass / shrug from all of the people shaming the TOs and the community. 

Why not direct all this public shaming at the people who actually have the power to change the rules? Or better yet, their bosses?

Because being an ******* doesn't get better by changing the target.

I applaud the OP for his public apology, and must reiterate that

IT'S.  A.  GAME.

And it's a beautiful game that sooooooooooooo many people play without all the meta angst.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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6 hours ago, Koing907 said:

I love X-Wing. I like playing competitivley, and taking my fun seriously. 

But dude. There comes a time when you have to realize it is Just A Game. This drama is far worse than any superlist shenanigans. 

The saddest part of all this, is that I used to say that the X-Wing community is better than (I'm not going to name names here. You can guess a couple, I'm sure)

I can't say that anymore.

^^^^THIS

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1 hour ago, Chris Maes said:

1. Customer demand for new products at a rate that challenges FFG when it comes to producing the best product in pursuit of the best game...

2. FFG's  willingness/need to commercialize on that consumer demand at the expense of play-testing (to eliminate power-creep and the need for FAQs that explain, correct and often contradict the Rules as Written...

3. The continued over-emphasis on tournaments and tournament-style play.  Each wave that comes out seems to push the game further into its own self-justified world "X-Wing: the Game" and further away from a way to experience Star Wars.  To me, the game has become a victim of its own success, and we (the dedicated fan base /consumers) are just as much at fault as FFG.

1 and 2 can be easily solved while avoiding 3 by focusing on the narrative of X-Wing for a year or two.  There is a plethora of Star Wars flavor that can be added to the game (Blue Squadron X-Wings, Phoenix Squadron A-Wings, Hera in an A-Wing and X-Wing, Scythe Squadron, etc. etc. etc.) that would not be hard to playtest because it does not push the envelope but could inject some desperately needed Star Wars into the game.

Players would buy it because they love Star Wars.  FFG could get their releases.  And they could avoid The Dark Side of tournament-first design.

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@sozin I can understand your desire for order and acknowledging that your approach was wrong is a big thing to admit to yourself and to the community openly. Having this kind of discourse is part of this great game showing its age and growth over the years and the community doing its best to adapt. To admit having taken the wrong approach and then attempting to make amends publicly is why this community is still a great gaming community. To err is human; to never admit a mistake is some next level Sith crap.  

 

  The need to follow the correct wording of the rules (RAW), and apply them correctly, increases with the higher tier of playing. The top tier sets the bar on a ruling and then everyone else usually follows that. Keeping rules consistent, even if they are bad for the game, are actually a good thing. It stops the random decision making that can disrupt and upend any organized tournament structure. Any T.O. that makes their own ruling based on how they feel is at risk of being personally blamed for that ruling. However, if a judge rules RAW, then it is the rule that is to be blamed, and can be petitioned to be changed. 

  RAW is how we need to interpret cards and RAI is the designers intent that didn't come across in the right way, and that does happen. This game has grown to have so many pilot abilities and upgrade cards now that it is now extremely difficult to see how all these parts interact in the subset when trying to evaluate against the whole.

 

 

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6 hours ago, MacchuWA said:

A post like this shows a **** of a lot of good grace, well done for writing it. The fact remains though that your initial impulse was the right one. The TOs and Judges refusing to follow the game designers lead are flat-out wrong. I dont understand the mindset of people who can't see that. It's disappointing that the issue is dividing the community, and hopefully it can get resolved sooner rather than later.

1. RAW, the interaction works. The terms on the cards are clear and easy to understand. Which is why everybody was using it that way.

2. The designers haven't said anything. The resistance is to playing a game of Rules Telephone over rumors that may or may not be true.

3. I think RAI is better for the meta than RAW, but I don't think this is the way to go about getting it implemented. If an individual TO will sack up and ban the interaction until a FAQ drops, I can respect that. Saying it's because X designer said something to someone and someone else says so is shady and confusing for the community.

 

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7 hours ago, Koing907 said:

I love X-Wing. I like playing competitivley, and taking my fun seriously. 

But dude. There comes a time when you have to realize it is Just A Game. This drama is far worse than any superlist shenanigans. 

The saddest part of all this, is that I used to say that the X-Wing community is better than (I'm not going to name names here. You can guess a couple, I'm sure)

I can't say that anymore.

Re: "Just A Game": when you combine community, sunk financial cost, time investment, family points spent, and other factors (for me, for example, a lot of software written), it sort of becomes ... something a little more, I guess? 

I've played a lot of chess in my life -- travelled for it, played Gary Kasparov once (lost), made enough one year to claim it on my taxes, won a youth state championship, have big library of books, do tactics puzzles every day on chess.com, made friends all over the world because of it, got mad when Deep Blue beat Gary ... and while chess technically, is, just a game, for me its way more than that.  It's part of who I am now. And while it sounds dorky and cheesy, I have some of that with X-Wing as well. Not as much as with chess, but some. 

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57 minutes ago, sozin said:

Re: "Just A Game": when you combine community, sunk financial cost, time investment, family points spent, and other factors (for me, for example, a lot of software written), it sort of becomes ... something a little more, I guess? 

I've played a lot of chess in my life -- travelled for it, played Gary Kasparov once (lost), made enough one year to claim it on my taxes, won a youth state championship, have big library of books, do tactics puzzles every day on chess.com, made friends all over the world because of it, got mad when Deep Blue beat Gary ... and while chess technically, is, just a game, for me its way more than that.  It's part of who I am now. And while it sounds dorky and cheesy, I have some of that with X-Wing as well. Not as much as with chess, but some. 

Exactly, this is the way I feel about Star Wars in general, as well as my main hobby of role-playing.

These aren't *just* things, games, movies or books... these are the things that, in essence, give meaning to our toil on this little blue speck in the vast emptiness of space. We put love, passion and effort into our hobbies, of course we are passionate about them. And there is nothing dorky about that.

Passion is not something many people can feel for *things*, but I believe those who can, are richer for it.

 

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