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Velvetelvis

I taught 6 new players the other day ,they had a lot of fun! But I can't sell this game anymore.

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Six brand new players at a board game night.

Each of which would have easily bought into this game in the hundreds of dollars no problem.

But I couldn' do it.for the first time in 4 years,  I couldn't find the moral strength to recommend this game to them.

I will not be responsible for that amount of money being spent just to have them enter this world and it sucks.it really sucks. I want people to have fun.

Those of us who have been here for the long haul can deal with it.we shall bemoan the state of affairs and still carry on.

But how in any way do we in good conscious tell people to buy into a game that's been getting so far from it' roots?

My own spending has droppd to near zero on this game. I used to happily gobble up new waves. Today it struck me that for at least a year (I think the k wing is the last rebel ship I bought).

Am I excited to play ? Absolutely. I' m super passionate about this game. 

I wish the people making it were as passionate as they used to be.As cautious and mindful as they used to claim in interviews.

 Look at your collections...the ships you want to play have between 1 and 3 upgrade card slots.

Now look at what's on tables, 2 cards with what...15-16 upgrades in play?

When errata releases have people actually taking hole punches to there cards to make them right ,there's a problem. 

 

 

 

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I agree the game does have some problems with accretion and powercreep. At first one of the biggest draws is for a miniature game it was the most affordable when compared to the likes of Warmachine-Hordes and Warhammer 40,000.

But yeah for a miniature game still in print format FFG needs to remedy the need to punch out cards for tournaments. At least make Alt art cards legal, the most common advice is to sleeve them with the original card that has been hole punched or marked to let you know it has been changed. Or at the very least have an official list builder that is updated consistently with the FAQs and wave releases. Since they will have the inside information we wont't have to wait on SB to update, but then again that is bringing up TOME flashbacks.

Edited by Marinealver

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I continue to recommend the game to people.  I started in Wave 3.  It is true that the game has fundamentally changed since the early days.  It has matured from a beer and pretzels game with a relatively low entry cost into more of a full fledged war game with a dense rules document and substantial investment required for entry.

I continue to recommend the game because competitive play is only one format.  There are many, many ways to enjoy X-wing.  Epic, missions, integrating it into RPG's, and just playing with friends around the kitchen table.  I actually was not a fan of the meta even back in wave 3, since it seemed downright Napoleonic to just march blocks of TIE fighters at each other.

 

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Maybe that is the answer.  I suppose my old " just buy your favorite ship and have fun with it" is the correct call.

When I get the inevitable" hey I saw this YouTube video  showing what looked like a sports event or tournament was going on,what's that about?".

And I have to be honest and respond that "THAT is the game company pretending as if the product translates well as a competitive game.you don'  want any part of that particular sb1t show.save your money".

 

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12 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I continue to recommend the game to people.  I started in Wave 3.  It is true that the game has fundamentally changed since the early days.  It has matured from a beer and pretzels game with a relatively low entry cost into more of a full fledged war game with a dense rules document and substantial investment required for entry.

I continue to recommend the game because competitive play is only one format.  There are many, many ways to enjoy X-wing.  Epic, missions, integrating it into RPG's, and just playing with friends around the kitchen table.  I actually was not a fan of the meta even back in wave 3, since it seemed downright Napoleonic to just march blocks of TIE fighters at each other.

 

Yeah, Wave 3 was a traffic jam. The whole Cluster in the center reminded me more of 40K than a flight path game (granted this is where B-wings started to shine).

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Let them make their own decision. You may not like it cause you are an 'old timer' and want the game to go back to Bwings and Tie Fighters, but many people around here just got into it, maybe 6 months-1year ago and are playing about 3-4 times a week now and going to regionals and systems opens. They are passionate about it and making podcasts, running local events, and growing the community. They actually are getting me to play more because I know they are gonna be at the LGS on certain nights, so I dont have to worry if someone is going to be there or not.

The community in Xwing is what makes it great, not nerfs or FAQs. Play casually however you want with any rules you want and this game is absolutely fantastic. We run local tourneys with house rules, or special formats around here and its a great time. If we dont want to play against bomb cheese or TLTs we nerf them ourselves. LGS tourneys here have dozens of prizes to win, like an alt art card for rolling 3 or more natty blank green dice and your ship dies, or kill someone by tractor beaming them on an obstacle. A beginner can come to this tournament and walk away with more prize loot than the actual winner. Its fun times for all.

Why take enjoyment away from people because of your own sour grapes? The only "downer" for Xwing is the higher end competitive environment if you let it get to you.

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54 minutes ago, wurms said:

Let them make their own decision. You may not like it cause you are an 'old timer' and want the game to go back to Bwings and Tie Fighters, but many people around here just got into it, maybe 6 months-1year ago and are playing about 3-4 times a week now and going to regionals and systems opens. They are passionate about it and making podcasts, running local events, and growing the community. They actually are getting me to play more because I know they are gonna be at the LGS on certain nights, so I dont have to worry if someone is going to be there or not.

The community in Xwing is what makes it great, not nerfs or FAQs. Play casually however you want with any rules you want and this game is absolutely fantastic. We run local tourneys with house rules, or special formats around here and its a great time. If we dont want to play against bomb cheese or TLTs we nerf them ourselves. LGS tourneys here have dozens of prizes to win, like an alt art card for rolling 3 or more natty blank green dice and your ship dies, or kill someone by tractor beaming them on an obstacle. A beginner can come to this tournament and walk away with more prize loot than the actual winner. Its fun times for all.

Why take enjoyment away from people because of your own sour grapes? The only "downer" for Xwing is the higher end competitive environment if you let it get to you.

You cant dismiss the sentiments of the vast majority of casual players because the tiny minority of tournament players think the games fine. 

i loved the game, spent well over a grand on it, made scratch built ships and obstacles, a custom faction, the whole deal.  and you know what? im selling most of my collection because im disgusted by FFGs policy and design. 2 friends and I fixed several of the games major problems with a couple house rules and custom cards in a shockingly short period of time. FFG could do a better job at will, but they dont and wont... care to guess why? because if your old ships were good you wouldnt buy new ships, hence powercreep.  i expect some base level greed, but the current game is stupid

 

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2 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Maybe that is the answer.  I suppose my old " just buy your favorite ship and have fun with it" is the correct call.

When I get the inevitable" hey I saw this YouTube video  showing what looked like a sports event or tournament was going on,what's that about?".

And I have to be honest and respond that "THAT is the game company pretending as if the product translates well as a competitive game.you don'  want any part of that particular sb1t show.save your money".

 

Or send them to VASSAL where they can see for themselves wether this style of play appeals to them (enough to drop a metric ton of money). Because competetive X-Wing can be a lot of fun, but only if you let go of the desire to play what you prefer.

Also foster a casual community that proxies cards and talks about what kind of list they bring before game night.

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Velvetis...stick to Casual Play and avoid competitive builds. X Wing is one of the best games in the market, Easy to Play section.

IMHO Cinematic is the best way for you. Play scenarios. Fix your game. This game is really a simple one. Intuitive and fast. The conflict arises when one Competitive minded player plays with a Star Wars fan who is not a Pro. Think about per example swimming.

I am middle aged. Overweight. Swimming is highly recomended for me. But I can not and will not swim vs a 20 years old slim athlete. But swimming is OK. The sport is not the problem.

X Wing is super fun. And not a game for the wealthy only. Near Infinite replay value. If you invest lets say 150 euros you can decorate your shelves with circa 15 - 18 ships. 

So do not despair. Fly Casual. Fly with friends. Fly with SW fans. Let the Pros have fun flying Tournament style.

Simply jump to the pool and relax swimming as the sun arises.

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For as long as I've been paying (since wave 6), the game hasn't fundamentally changed. There still are dominating builds, some people still find them unfun and you still need to drop a ton of $ for ships you don't want to fly just to get the cards.

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2 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I continue to recommend the game to people.  I started in Wave 3.  It is true that the game has fundamentally changed since the early days.  It has matured from a beer and pretzels game with a relatively low entry cost into more of a full fledged war game with a dense rules document and substantial investment required for entry.

I continue to recommend the game because competitive play is only one format.  There are many, many ways to enjoy X-wing.  Epic, missions, integrating it into RPG's, and just playing with friends around the kitchen table.  I actually was not a fan of the meta even back in wave 3, since it seemed downright Napoleonic to just march blocks of TIE fighters at each other.

 

That exactly I said when I do initiation game for news players ! They have so much more format to do with xwing and with custom format like 77+, top gun, furball we have enough tools to play.

 

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Most people are casual players -- absolutely recommend the game and recommend they pick up what they like to see and what they think is fun.

There's no reason to let frustration with power creep and problems that really only impact competitive play get in the way of your enjoyment of the game, unless the only enjoyment you get is from winning in competitive play.

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22 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Maybe that is the answer.  I suppose my old " just buy your favorite ship and have fun with it" is the correct call.

When I get the inevitable" hey I saw this YouTube video  showing what looked like a sports event or tournament was going on,what's that about?".

And I have to be honest and respond that "THAT is the game company pretending as if the product translates well as a competitive game.you don'  want any part of that particular sb1t show.save your money".

 

Try and be strictly objective and leave your attitude toward competitive play packed away. As others have said "Fly Casual". There are far more for fun players than there are competitive players. 

If I was just starting out and read some of these threads, I think I would be hard pressed to buy into the game. A lot of b****ing about the META, complaints about the devs, cards not in the ex pacs that can use them, yadda yadda yadda. Here I stand, four years into the game with everything that's been released and having fun. I have no delusions about playing and winning in anything above a store tournament. I play at least twice a week. One night with my oldest friend, who I brought into the game and one night at the FLGS. 

The next time you introduce some younglings to this game the only warning I would give them is "This game can be addicting and can hurt your wallet". If they have the inclination, ability and deep pockets, act as a mentor for their journey to competitive play. Otherwise just enjoy the fact you have some new players and maybe some new friends to play this game with.

Edited by Stoneface
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I'd recommend it, but as with ANYTHING (not pertaining to your own work ofc ;) )you gotta be ready to be honest about its shortcomings

This includes pointing them out (the titular ******* ship is kinda trash outside Poe and Jess) while not going overboard (x7s, alpha classes and wookies don't need that many upgrades)

Also, Encouraging proxies (for upgrade cards SPECIFICALLY) at anything short of sanctioned events goes A LONG WAY to settling financial issues. 

So I always recommend but with caveats same as any game ever (5th Ed 40k worst of all where you just have to admit the GW pushes skewed rules to sell new models)

Finally, erratas are nothing new and it is laughable to think it's an xwing only phenomenon. Make sure new players know about them and accept them for making the game a far better experience than it would otherwise have been. 

Seriously, xwing doesn't have DIDDLY on warmachine mkii epic Asphyxious. Bastard took 3 explicit hits to his ability simply to become "amazing" instead of "utterly game breaking"

Edited by ficklegreendice

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@Velvetelvis - I see and actually understand your dilemma. A passionate Xwing player, enjoys the tournament scene and casual, but a new player walks in and wants to throw money at it... And they ask your experienced opinion.

I admit, my opinion has often been, if you're getting in just to have fun buy your favourite ship from the movies. If you're thinking about competitive, put that TIE Punisher back on the shelf and here, fly mine first.

As far as rules go, Xwing still has a very small rule book. Even if we add the errata to the book, compare it to other miniature games. Battletech has a tome called Total Warfare, plus extra books for optional rules. I'm testing out Infinity to see if I like it, 250+ page rule book. Xwing is, at its heart, a deceptively simple game to learn but tough to master. It's a good game still.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the game, but I do try to figure out which of the two paths the player wants to travel. I too am cautious about recommending the grand tournament scene because fun there isn't as easily defined as two friends putting ships on the table.

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7 minutes ago, faceyfood said:

Just sick of the constant complaining. IMO that is the only problem with this fantastic game.

Welcome to the forums. Where people from all over the world come together to complain in one big noisy mess. You'll get used to it in a month or two... Or you'll have a psychotic break.

Edited by LagJanson

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One of the strengths of the game is it's appeal to multiple personality types. Like the other popular tabletop wargames, people play from some combination of love of the source material, enjoyment of tangible games, or enjoyment of strategic problem solving.

Some folks play high stakes poker and blackjack. Others play penny poker with friends over beer and pretzels.

Sure, it won't happen every time, but my goal is to say "yes" when someone asks "Did you have a good time?" I play against a tournament list this past Thursday and lost handily. I did kill my first gunboat and the other guy only got one harpoon shot off. I drove in hard, made some mistakes, and got a bit of that feeling of space ships dogfighting amidst the asteroids. My take away was that I need work on my flying to survive against the whole crazy X-wing community family.

P.S. That new, unopened TIE Silencer may be going back to the FLGS. I just don't look forward to flying it.

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I get it too, but this game is fantastic. Tell em to come on and play. 95% is casual; even local competitive games are fun no matter the outcome; only a few tech and painstakingly practice to win the top tables. 

Punishers, X-Wings, TIE fighters, generic Phantoms, Sycks, etc. are all fun; it’s a game, right?

Oh, and @faceyfood, this is a forum, by definition a place to find out about the new hotness, new cards, squads, paint schemes and that’s only half of it; the other half is to scream into the void, let it out, it’s healthy mate. If you’re not allowing anything negative to ever be said in a relationship, then nothing positive will come of it ?

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17 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

@Velvetelvis: I think you are letting this weigh upon you too heavily.  Be honest with people.  If they still want to play the game in its current form, then that is fine.  Perhaps they will just play HotAC.  It is really up to them.

Echoing @Pewpewpew BOOM and @wurms here.  You introduced them to the game, they had fun, not seeing the problem here.  Some might like to play a casual game now and again, some might take the collector's approach, some might go ultra competitive and travel for all the local tournaments.  How deep they decide to jump down the rabbit hole shouldn't really be your concern if they're enjoying themselves.

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