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silversurfr77

Greedo question .... ANY number of his character dice?

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Allow me to solve this... 

 

dice in the set aside zone are not considered character dice 

 

For exemple, krennic's death trooper dice cannot be targetted by Isolation

 

 

I cant believe you all missed that basic ruling...

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Show me in the rules where it says that shuffling my deck must be done in such a way as to randomize the position of the cards. Show me in the rules where it says that I must roll my nice in such a way as to randomize the outcome of the roll.

But if you try to stack your deck while shuffling or roll dice so deliberately as to rig the outcome, you’ll be DQ’d from any tournament.

The OP and their friend got their JD in Rules Lawyering from Troll Universirty.

Good topic tho would read again.

Edited by KalEl814

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This thread went from funny loophole to a merry go round of semantics. 

Common sense says the die/dice used to build your team of characters is all you may use when his ability triggers. Does not need an errata. 

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12 hours ago, loup167 said:

Its funny how I provided a perfect answer and suddently no one cares 

Yeah ..... everyone knows the correct answer long before this was brought up but those of us that pulled multiple of him can dream we got the hot rare of the set rather than crap rare of the set.

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26 minutes ago, Mep said:

Yeah ..... everyone knows the correct answer long before this was brought up but those of us that pulled multiple of him can dream we got the hot rare of the set rather than crap rare of the set.

Greedo isn’t even remotely close to being the crap legendary/rare...

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On 1/18/2018 at 3:41 PM, silversurfr77 said:

I get that....  but i also play in tournaments, both for fun and a bit competitive. As you can see from some of the replies, I'm not the only one that thinks this is technically legal. 

With that said, I HATE errata, because every set that comes along, the list of corrections gets that much bigger. I played heroclix for about 7 years, and when that players guide got longer than the encyclopedia Britannica,  I couldn't take it any longer. If that is the future of this game, perhaps it's time to get out while I only have 10 Greedos :D

FFG has an easy route out of the errata pool's deep end - if they are smart.

All OP Prize support should be errata'd cards with the proper card text / points. Easy-peasy.

Will they do that? Probably not...

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1 hour ago, KryatDragon said:

Will they do that?

They certainly could, but it would probably be about 6 months before they do as they would probably have the Q2 kits already planned and under production.

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7 hours ago, RJM said:

Greedo isn’t even remotely close to being the crap legendary/rare...

I like Greedo and want to  have him in a deck but going by price.... he's near the bottom. It is what it is.

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Ok, so some questions on this:

While character dice are indeed any dice that match a card, Greedo say "his character dice."  This doesn't mean any old Greedo dice, it means the Character dice that match his card and are included in his character cost.  So the 1 or 2 Greedo dice you start the game with.  If you somehow managed to introduce a third Greedo dice into the game, it likely would not be His Character Dice, because it would be attached to some other card in play.

Second, I don't think the Set Aside Zone allows you to include any number of character dice just because you are playing those characters.  Greedo's ability is not like Krennic's or 7th Sis, it doesn't reference additional dice.  It references His Character dice:  See Above.

Finally, let's presume that you can stack your SAZ with Greedo dice.  Greedo's ability still doesn't let you bring those dice into play.  Because the dice in the SAZ are not HIS dice.  They are character dice, and they are Greedo character dice, but they are not His Character dice, because they are not the dice you get for the points cost of the character.  

The key word here is His.  Presumes a connection that is defined by the character cost you have chosen to play that character as.  If the ability said "roll any number of Greedo character dice," then the OP's idea would be fully legal.  

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On 1/21/2018 at 11:01 PM, Mep said:

I like Greedo and want to  have him in a deck but going by price.... he's near the bottom. It is what it is.

http://www.thechancecube.com/pricewatch/

Presently he's middle of the pack and the 11th most expensive card of the set by the Chance Cube and 8th most expensive Legendary in the set on EBay. So I'm pretty sure you aren't going by price, as the price is contradicting you.

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On 1/19/2018 at 3:22 PM, Whingewood said:

Yes, I understand that Greedo's ability has nothing to do with activating him.  I was using those parts of the rules reference to highlight what the game denotes as a character's dice:

Characters, page 5 Rule Reference:

"Each character has one or two dice that are rolled when that character is activated."

A character has one or two dice.  

 

Been away for a few days, but saw this was back to the top so i thought i'd re-read through and saw Whingewoods response. This sort of got me. 

This is problematic, and it shows where this bit of confusion comes from. Whingewood .... you're using the rules definition of CHARACTER to get an understanding of what CHARACTER DICE are. This is backwards and we don't need this, because the rules guide defines CHARACTER DICE separately. in my very first post i quoted it from the rules guide. 

CHARACTER DIE p. 20
A character die is a die that matches a character.

This is different than what you get defining what a CHARACTER is. They are both separate and different. a CHARACTER has 1 or 2 character dice. but CHARACTER DICE are ...... see above ..... a die that matches a character. Greedos ability does NOT reference THIS CHARACTERS (self-referential language) character dice. It references his CHARACTER DICE. ANY NUMBER of them in fact. This is an amazingly nuanced thing to pick up on ... but it DOES make a difference. 

using "his" instead of "GREEDO's" character dice is just semantics as its the difference between using a NOUN and a PRONOUN. However, per the rules, SELF-REFERENCING  

"SELF-REFERENTIAL EFFECTS p. 19
When a card’s ability text refers to its own card type, such as
“this upgrade” or “this character,” it refers to itself only, and
not to other copies (by title) of the card."

Greedos ability does not refer to a CARD TYPE ...... it refers to his CHARACTER DICE. And HIS is not self referential, because HIS does not refer to CHARACTER CARD. Again, it refers to his CHARACTER DICE. and as long as those DICE match him, him being Greedo, then any number can be rolled. 

as i said previously, for it to be self-referential, it would have to say "THIS CHARACTERS character dice, because per the rules guide, that is how self referential language works in this game. even if it DID say that, which it does NOT use the established language .... the next point would still remain. 

In this case however, the subject of the line is his CHARACTER DICE .... not THIS CHARACTER. 

 

this post got way longer than it was supposed to be ...... :S

 

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27 minutes ago, silversurfr77 said:

Been away for a few days, but saw this was back to the top so i thought i'd re-read through and saw Whingewoods response. This sort of got me. 

This is problematic, and it shows where this bit of confusion comes from. Whingewood .... you're using the rules definition of CHARACTER to get an understanding of what CHARACTER DICE are. This is backwards and we don't need this, because the rules guide defines CHARACTER DICE separately. in my very first post i quoted it from the rules guide. 

CHARACTER DIE p. 20
A character die is a die that matches a character.

This is different than what you get defining what a CHARACTER is. They are both separate and different. a CHARACTER has 1 or 2 character dice. but CHARACTER DICE are ...... see above ..... a die that matches a character. Greedos ability does NOT reference THIS CHARACTERS (self-referential language) character dice. It references his CHARACTER DICE. ANY NUMBER of them in fact. This is an amazingly nuanced thing to pick up on ... but it DOES make a difference. 

using "his" instead of "GREEDO's" character dice is just semantics as its the difference between using a NOUN and a PRONOUN. However, per the rules, SELF-REFERENCING  

"SELF-REFERENTIAL EFFECTS p. 19
When a card’s ability text refers to its own card type, such as
“this upgrade” or “this character,” it refers to itself only, and
not to other copies (by title) of the card."

Greedos ability does not refer to a CARD TYPE ...... it refers to his CHARACTER DICE. And HIS is not self referential, because HIS does not refer to CHARACTER CARD. Again, it refers to his CHARACTER DICE. and as long as those DICE match him, him being Greedo, then any number can be rolled. 

as i said previously, for it to be self-referential, it would have to say "THIS CHARACTERS character dice, because per the rules guide, that is how self referential language works in this game. even if it DID say that, which it does NOT use the established language .... the next point would still remain. 

In this case however, the subject of the line is his CHARACTER DICE .... not THIS CHARACTER. 

 

this post got way longer than it was supposed to be ...... :S

 

His in this instance is not semantics: It means the dice that are connected to the card by means of the character's points cost.  

While the RRG does not contain explicit language to guide you in this, you don't need it.  If you want to go that far, Greedo is not a real person, so nothing can be "his," meaning you don't get to do anything with the card's ability because there is no "his."  It's an inanimate card with no gender or identity to speak of.

This is rules lawyering at it's worst.  You're ignoring the rules you don't want to see in order to favor the rules you do want to see.

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kingbobb .... you're doing exactly what i just pointed out. i don't know how you get to "It means the dice that are connected to the card by means of the character's points cost" based on reading the ability. you are inferring intent, instead of reading the rules, which, by the way, say nothing of the sort. read the section again on self referential language. As i just pointed out ... its the difference between defining CHARACTER and CHARACTER DICE. 2 separate and different things. that's why they're both defined separately and differently. Whingewood's post helped me to see that. 

as far as favoring the rules you don't want to see .... why is everyone defining CHARACTER instead of CHARACTER DICE?  the subject of his ability are the CHARACTER DICE, which are not the same thing as CHARACTER. see the definitions. they're quite different. 

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28 minutes ago, silversurfr77 said:

kingbobb .... you're doing exactly what i just pointed out. i don't know how you get to "It means the dice that are connected to the card by means of the character's points cost" based on reading the ability. you are inferring intent, instead of reading the rules, which, by the way, say nothing of the sort. read the section again on self referential language. As i just pointed out ... its the difference between defining CHARACTER and CHARACTER DICE. 2 separate and different things. that's why they're both defined separately and differently. Whingewood's post helped me to see that. 

as far as favoring the rules you don't want to see .... why is everyone defining CHARACTER instead of CHARACTER DICE?  the subject of his ability are the CHARACTER DICE, which are not the same thing as CHARACTER. see the definitions. they're quite different. 

So, let's start with the definitions:  

Character, RRG p 6.  This is under the heading of Card Anatomy, so we know Characters have a card.  They also have dice...1 or 2...depending on the point value that you are playing that Character at.  Note the language used in Point Value(s):  There's a possessive tense used to refer to a character's dice, and that they get 1 or 2 depending on how you build your team.  Specifically, a Character's dice are the 1 or 2 dice associated with that character based on points value.  Whether the pronoun used is its/his/her/this, etc., the meaning is the same.  It doesn't mean every dice that matches that character in existence.

Character Die, RRG p20, in Terms.  Yes, here you find that a character die is a die that matches a character.  The second bullet serves to distinguish character dice from upgrade dice, as there is often confusion between the two.  

So here's the distinction:  Greedo's ability says, specifically, "his character dice."  Based on the language used on p6 of the RRG, that possessive tense specifically means the 1 or 2 character dice that go with that card, and are based on the point value you have included in your character team.  It specifically excludes all other Greedo dice in existence.  

It's like the Rifleman's Creed:  "This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine."  Only with character dice.

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On 2018-01-19 at 6:46 PM, loup167 said:

Allow me to solve this... 

 

dice in the set aside zone are not considered character dice 

 

For exemple, krennic's death trooper dice cannot be targetted by Isolation

 

 

I cant believe you all missed that basic ruling...

Let me quote myself.

A dice with Greedo face on it is not a character dice UNLESS it is Linked to a character card, exactly like in the official rulling on Krennic : the dice he gives with his skill is not a character dice even if it has a character face on it

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12 minutes ago, loup167 said:

Let me quote myself.

A dice with Greedo face on it is not a character dice UNLESS it is Linked to a character card, exactly like in the official rulling on Krennic : the dice he gives with his skill is not a character dice even if it has a character face on it

Where does this ruling come from?  I can't find it in the RRG, and if it's an email, that's sort of problematic, because it's only as official as the group you are with are willing to accept it as official.

The only thing I could see in the RRG supporting this is that since there is no card for the DT in play, it doesn't count as a character die.  But I don't see the RRG section on characters leading to that conclusion.

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6 hours ago, ScottieATF said:

http://www.thechancecube.com/pricewatch/

Presently he's middle of the pack and the 11th most expensive card of the set by the Chance Cube and 8th most expensive Legendary in the set on EBay. So I'm pretty sure you aren't going by price, as the price is contradicting you.

Was looking at miniature market pricing, pretty much near the bottom, like 11th out of 17th. So yeah, down in the bottom with the rest of the trash legends.  I feel he is under priced and Yoda is over priced but really, this game doesn't have much of a secondary market past a few months after a set comes out and people stop opening packs to sell. So not much time for prices to move.

At some point, you really need to find someone else to troll. Seriously, it is obnoxious.

Edited by Mep

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2 hours ago, kingbobb said:

Where does this ruling come from?  I can't find it in the RRG, and if it's an email, that's sort of problematic, because it's only as official as the group you are with are willing to accept it as official.

The only thing I could see in the RRG supporting this is that since there is no card for the DT in play, it doesn't count as a character die.  But I don't see the RRG section on characters leading to that conclusion.

It's more or less in the rules, try and follow the rules that add detail to the places a dice may be and how it moves about those places.

Character Dice in essence start the game on the character card they were purchased with and are rolled into the dice pool and return to their character card when used. The Death Trooper Dice that Krennic adds will be taken from the set-aside zone and return there when resolved, removed or at the end of the round.

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DICE (p4 Tournament Rules):
If a player includes any cards in his or her deck that require a die, he or she must have the die matching that card’s collector number for each copy of that card. A player must have the die—or two dice if they are using the elite version of the character—required for each character in his or her team. Players are not required to reveal a die to their opponent until the corresponding card is played during a game.

You are only allowed one or two Greedo dice, if you roll more I would just call a judge over and let him sort things out. In fact just having more would be against the rules.

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23 hours ago, silversurfr77 said:

...

"SELF-REFERENTIAL EFFECTS p. 19

When a card’s ability text refers to its own card type, such as
“this upgrade” or “this character,” it refers to itself only, and
not to other copies (by title) of the card."

Greedos ability does not refer to a CARD TYPE ...... it refers to his CHARACTER DICE. And HIS is not self referential, because HIS does not refer to CHARACTER CARD. Again, it refers to his CHARACTER DICE. and as long as those DICE match him, him being Greedo, then any number can be rolled. 

as i said previously, for it to be self-referential, it would have to say "THIS CHARACTERS character dice, because per the rules guide, that is how self referential language works in this game. even if it DID say that, which it does NOT use the established language .... the next point would still remain. 

In this case however, the subject of the line is his CHARACTER DICE .... not THIS CHARACTER. 

...

 

This is IMO very far fetched. If "his character dice" isn't self-referential then one would be able to use an opponent's dice, etc.

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