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Rolotamasi

Fly what is good or what you like? A soliloquy on the death of Soontir Fel.

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So I know the old adage fly what you like, then you will get good at it.  Unfortunately not everything you like is going to be good.  I'm looking at you TIE Punishers.

But on a specific level what to do with ole Soontir Fel?  I like him.  Much like Doctor Who, he was my first ship and will always be my favorite.  But in this current meta I don't think he has a place.  No shields.  Only 3 hull.  Sure I know you can outmaneuver the bombs, but a good simulated trajectory and not even Palp-able greens will save him.  Then there is his PS.  At 9 he was fine, but in today's age you almost need 11.  He can do this, but then he has no reliable way to proc his ability.  PTL has been stapled to every single Fel out there, I'm surprised FFG hasn't printed a cool double card ala R2D2 and integrated astromech.

So, am I wrong?  Is there room for PS11 Fel?  Can his survive with his 35 point "staple" build?  At 34 (with targeting computer instead of stealth device) he can fit in a triple harpoon list.  But let's be honest, is it better than QD, prob not. 

Thoughts?

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I can not talk about Soontir in competitive play. Only from a casual perspective. On our tables Interceptor Aces are OK. Not only OK, above average. Simply, we play Cinematic and quite far from today's Meta. 

Bombs. They are great. Very funny. Even better if you play with Face Down ordnance and bomb cards. But we play Dogfight games. Not Minelayer games. So only a limited number of this devices on the table.

PS race. Not a big problem if you play Cinematic. Perhaps we are a bunch of primitives who reject new ways of enjoying X Wing. Living Cards Game etc. If you see Vader on our table you will see one the Galaxy's Finest. Or Soontir. Or Solo. No new supercool Pilot PS 9 plus VI vs Vader. 

If you play Cinematic in quite large tables (4×4, 4x6), limited number of bombs and limited PS race, Interceptor Aces are... Aces.

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It really depends. Are you looking to make cuts at tournaments? Then I'd say no, he's not usable in the current meta. For local game nights, bring him all you want. It's an unfortunate nature of this game in the fact things will always be imbalanced.

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I flew Soontir when he was "bad" last summer at store champs, top 4'd with him and RAC with 30+ in attendance.  I'm flying him now with Dark Curse and Kylo, and doing okay (don't know if this list is cut worthy or not).  I think the only imperial "ace" without a place right now is Whisper.  Of all of them, she NEEDS to be highest PS to either get cloaked or arcdodge.  PS10 bombs, TLT's, missles means she's completely out, even with how quick she is.  She's just a lot tougher to fly and much more unforgiving.  Fel?  PSSSHHHH.  He's always got a place!  Just needs the right pairings.  I think this is the first time I've seen something other than PTL show up in a top cut.  I guess list juggler doesn't have it, but him and Kylo at ps11 is actually pretty awesome and really harkens back to the arcdodging you love. 

I saw a list recently on here with RAC/Predator/Rebel Captive/ and some more anti-nymranda stuff, paired with Fel.  Go get 'em!

Edit:  in answer to the OP's question, 34 point Fel without a PS bid is most definitely NOT better than QD.  But 35 point stealth device fel with Palp Backup can shrug off plenty of harpoons!  You don't actually need PS11 for Fel when he's tokened up.  Mainly because I haven't seen kimogilas at PS10 chasing him, nor have I seen Carnor Jax in awhile (I blame expertise and FCS)  Competitively, you need a blocker to arrange things for Fel if he's got TC.  Otherwise, just go fly around and be a major nuisance.  I'd think VI Fel would like Palp in a coordinating Upsilon, Stridan maybe?  3rd ship would have to be either a striker or maybe you have points for Omega Leader. 

Edited by jonnyd

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I also remember Soontir winning something big not too long ago. Like...November. I’ll try to find the tourney. 

Edit—it was a System Open! Just, ya know...not the biggest system open. 30 players. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3723

Edit 2—just saw something over on Reddit, @Starslinger72 mentioned that Soontir, Kylo, and an 18-point bid just went 5-1 in hyperspace quals at PAX so...there’s that?

Edited by Ailowynn

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Soontir Fel always suffered this problem, it was just less noticeable in wave 2 and 3.  Even back in the day Fel wasn't winning much tournaments.  He always suffered from a "whoops" factor.  5 games in a tournament and he can solo the list.  and then one game range three behind a rock you just blank out your dice and die unceremoniously.  The other problem with Soontir is that his damage output is pretty anemic.  He has to save those tokens to live so he doesn't do much damage, he was just impossible to get fully modded shots on because he was so maneuverable.  Now fully modded shots are easy, bombs at higher PS are out there with perfect knowledge of the board state.  You take him to a tournament, you will win some games.  Auzitucks won't be able to touch them and he can whittle damage through the back end when he is not being shot at.  He can even be in lists to beat Nym Myranda or triple boats and Quickdraw.  It is just going to be a very up hill battle because all of Soontir's strength has been negated.  He is still highly maneuverable but you have to fly a perfect game.  Not many can do that.  

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6 minutes ago, thestggrwng said:

and then one game range three behind a rock you just blank out your dice and die unceremoniously.

And then he got Palp and Autothrusters to mitigate that RNG and just became fantastically efficient. He was a good jouster, let alone an ace. 

Now, obviously, he’s less strong. In regards to the OP...fly what you like, but find a way to make it good. That means starting with ship you enjoy and optimizing the build as much as possible. Soontir with VI, Shield, and Autothrusters is worth trying out. So is PtL, shield, targeting comp. Or if you can’t build him to counter bombs, include other counters in your list. Like a Decimator. Be flexible. Maybe Soontir will work, and maybe he won’t. Try out some possibilities, and find out if you’re making trade-offs, or just sacrifices. 

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For me, flying what is good beats flying what I like. I.have little fun getting trashed, even if I like what I'm flying. That being said, ever since I started playing I've been able to find an S or at least A tier squad I've liked.

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2 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

And then he got Palp and Autothrusters to mitigate that RNG and just became fantastically efficient. He was a good jouster, let alone an ace. 

Now, obviously, he’s less strong. In regards to the OP...fly what you like, but find a way to make it good. That means starting with ship you enjoy and optimizing the build as much as possible. Soontir with VI, Shield, and Autothrusters is worth trying out. So is PtL, shield, targeting comp. Or if you can’t build him to counter bombs, include other counters in your list. Like a Decimator. Be flexible. Maybe Soontir will work, and maybe he won’t. Try out some possibilities, and find out if you’re making trade-offs, or just sacrifices. 

No he still suffered from the whoops factor.  The other problem was turrets were no everywhere.  The first shot into him, he could make miss no matter what.  It was that second shot where he could just blank out and die.

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9 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

I also remember Soontir winning something big not too long ago. Like...November. I’ll try to find the tourney. 

Edit—it was a System Open! Just, ya know...not the biggest system open. 30 players. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3723

Edit 2—just saw something over on Reddit, @Starslinger72 mentioned that Soontir, Kylo, and an 18-point bid just went 5-1 in hyperspace quals at PAX so...there’s that?

That's not a system open. Brazil is iirc not in the list of supported countries for X-Wing either. List Juggler has currently listed several tourneys as system open which are not system opens. :-)
That being said, Soontir did got his first or second national win ever in November when De Boer took him with QuickDraw and a classic OGP-Palp Shuttle into victory. 
IIRC has Duncan Howard done some work in some regionals with Soontir as well afterwards. 

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I fly really bad Imperial lists because I like the theme of swarming. I have much more fun trying these lists out rather than trying the best Imperial meta (I really don't like Quickdraw, for instance). But Vader, some TIES (traded/bought more of the blue ones to make my set match), maybe a Bomber or Gunboat, and I can pull of a few kills even if I lose in the end.

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6 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

And now you see . . . what is good will always triumph because fun is dumb.

Your philosophy is skewed. A bad day at X-wing is better than a good day doing anything else. Only one thing trumps X-wing.:D

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6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

There are 2 options already and still you need a repaint?? ;)

I avoid the meta like the plague, so I guess I never fly what is good.  It must work: I'm always having fun.

Yeah, I wanted something with a little more panache.

You have the right idea. If it's not fun, it's not worth playing. Winning is just the cherry on top of the sundae. 

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I flew 3 T70s for a long time when I started the game, and I lost almost every game. But I flew them because they're x-wings and I like having a squadron of the same ship. I didn't really get the idea of having ships that would never be seen together in 'real life' Star Wars. My background is in games where the story happening on the table is 90% of the thing. 

Eventually I learned about things like action economy and how things that seem unbeatable really aren't unbeatable. I remember one game where I almost took down Dengar/Tel with the x-wings, and another one where I outflew a Shadowcaster list but just failed on the last dice roll. So I started to learn that things weren't hopeless!

It depends on your group and local meta etc, but I feel more comfortable now I'm aware of what are the current most common danger-lists. Then at least if I want to pick 3 x-wings or an A-Wing swarm I know what I'll need to come up against. 

I assume every player goes through the "wow, a great game about dogfighting aces!", "oh crap, this game is impossible and not like that at all", "erm, actually maybe I can still have fun anyway".

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