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beefcake4000

A few thoughts on the current value of Imperial ships

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1 hour ago, PT106 said:

I would respectfully disagree here, especially with the Sevens fleet title. It's going to have a different role, but its a valid one.

I doubt it. I’ve played this game since launch day and I have yet to see or meet anyone who runs a single GSD without Demolisher. The only time I have ever seen Insidious or a title-less GSD is on the second GSD. I expect that 7th Fleet will sit on the same level. It will almost never get picked over Demolisher. Demolisher is too good and too undercosted. 

 

Which sucks, because I think 7th Fleet is awesome for GSDs. Demolisher is just going to override it. 

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21 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I doubt it. I’ve played this game since launch day and I have yet to see or meet anyone who runs a single GSD without Demolisher.

I did at Worlds and it worked out for me just fine, so I feel that the potential is there.

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Just gotta say that I am having a blast playing my duel VSD list right now.  VSD I with dominator and a VSD II with warlord.  Multiple times people thought they were clever avoiding the font arc of dominator... then when that arc goes from 3 dice to 8 dice with XI7... boom goes the admonition.

Thats not to say it doesn’t have its weaknesses.  But its been my experience that most people underestimate the humble VSD I.

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9 hours ago, beefcake4000 said:
Hi all, I've assembled a few thoughts on the relative value of ships in our favourite game, interested to hear if people agree or not given their own experiences. Note this is from an Australian and we do everything backwards to the rest of you, don't even rate Reikan aces as a super build. 
 

Beautiful ships there beefy!

After reading, and my own experiences, I'm really amazed at the value of almost all of the Empire's ships.  Right now, as far as value goes, only the Interdictor is a bit overpriced.

Every other ship gives you something that you want/need for a fair price.

ISD - Large all-rounder. Kills everything.

VSD - Defend a position while sending squads. Has been buffed in a huge way over the last few waves. (And I've played it successfully since Wave 0 darn it.)

Gladiator - Still the best little hitter in the game with Demo.  Without, a great little ship that people don't use enough.

Raider - Winner in the antisquad olympics.  The ultimate glass shotgun.

Arquitens - a tougher than you think long range chucker.

Quasar - You want squads?  I'll give you squads on the cheap!

Gozanti - I'm a little bastard! (Beefcake has 5 of them!?)

Interdictor - total board control may be possible, but it comes at a steep price.

I seriously would give them all 5/5 minus the Interdictor right now.  I'd set that at 3/5 right now.  All of these however, can be 5/5 ships in the correct build.

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1 hour ago, PT106 said:

I did at Worlds and it worked out for me just fine, so I feel that the potential is there.

I guess I’m not saying a naked GSD isn’t good or that Insidious isn’t good. I’m saying that any player who doesn’t take Demolisher on their first GSD has voluntarily  applied a handicap to their fleet. 

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12 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I guess I’m not saying a naked GSD isn’t good or that Insidious isn’t good. I’m saying that any player who doesn’t take Demolisher on their first GSD has voluntarily  applied a handicap to their fleet. 

I understand the point and I strongly disagree with it. I feel that the assumption that adding Demolisher title on the GSD is the only correct play is a mistake as it limits one's fleet building options. There are GSD roles where having Demolisher title is definitely not worth even 5 points (Essentially having Demolisher locks one into playing the ship and the fleet in a particular way, which may not be optimal)

Edited by PT106

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3 hours ago, geek19 said:

They're good ships, Bront.

If so I sure haven't seen it.

3 hours ago, PT106 said:

I would respectfully disagree here, especially with the Sevens fleet title. It's going to have a different role, but its a valid one.

I agree... one of the things you can do with multiple GSDs is take a handful of them (2-3) and with engine techs, use them to rush a target and attack it with double arcs on top of typical upgrades. This wave certainly, I'd like to explore running GSD multiples with the new generic upgrades to take fleet-wide. Wide Area Barrage, fired from multiple GSDs, what can it do?

Demo is great but I agree that I'd like to see more things to help non-Demo GSDs. 7th fleet can also help the VSDs on the protection angle, but exhausting another for one point of damage reduction doesn't sound as awesome as it needs to be.

Edited by Norsehound

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54 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I understand the point and I strongly disagree with it. I feel that the assumption that adding Demolisher title on the GSD is the only correct play is a mistake as it limits one's fleet building options. There are GSD roles where having Demolisher title is definitely not worth even 5 points (Essentially having Demolisher locks one into playing the ship and the fleet in a particular way, which may not be optimal)

Maybe you have a role for GSD that I haven’t thought of. I’d love and excuse to take Insidious or a 7th Fleet GSD. I try building various mechanics with GSD and every time it seems like Demo is just bacon on top.

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21 minutes ago, geek19 said:

@Snipafist has won 2 Adepticon tournaments with them. When piloted well they are the DEVIL.

I'll need to study a tournament report I've found of snip's to get some details, but does anyone have a table recording or play-by-play so I can be convinced of the Raider's "proper" use?

I can only speak to my personal experiences with this craft flown by me and others. It is easily destroyed when it encounters fighter-bombers, it only lives and functions by having first-last activations and being an ambush craft. Between the patrol games yesterday and two weeks ago, and trying Raiders to complement my ARQ battery, the Raider disappoints. Snip may have them down because of practiced strategy, but the fact is, it's a hard craft to use. Much harder than many of the Rebel ships, and much harder than the ships you'd often find in most Imperial lists (ISDs, Demolisher). If there is an 'ideal' way to run it, it's not obvious and requires a ton of practice to understand how it works.

 

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7 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

It is easily destroyed when it encounters fighter-bombers

 

 

Bombers like b wings or fighter bombers like x wings? Just trying to clarify your statement

7 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

it only lives and functions by having first-last activations and being an ambush craft.

I....don't see an issue with this? Sorry. Is this bad, being an ambush craft? Just not understanding what you mean.

7 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Snip may have them down because of practiced strategy, but the fact is, it's a hard craft to use.

 

Agreed, fully.

7 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

If there is an 'ideal' way to run it, it requires a ton of practice to understand how it works.

Yup, full agreement here. But once you get that practice in, they can be DEADLY.

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26 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Maybe you have a role for GSD that I haven’t thought of. I’d love and excuse to take Insidious or a 7th Fleet GSD. I try building various mechanics with GSD and every time it seems like Demo is just bacon on top.

The role that worked out for me was a support AS ship/healer on ISD flank. Essentially GSD2 with Projection Experts that flies near ISD and feeds it shields/does AS shots. The ship is cheap enough to be provided as a sacrificial lamb and at the same time threatening enough for someone being forced to fly into a close range to dodge ISD front arc. 7th fleet title synergizes with this role perfectly.

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15 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I'll need to study a tournament report I've found of snip's to get some details, but does anyone have a table recording or play-by-play so I can be convinced of the Raider's "proper" use?

I can only speak to my personal experiences with this craft flown by me and others. It is easily destroyed when it encounters fighter-bombers, it only lives and functions by having first-last activations and being an ambush craft. Between the patrol games yesterday and two weeks ago, and trying Raiders to complement my ARQ battery, the Raider disappoints. Snip may have them down because of practiced strategy, but the fact is, it's a hard craft to use. Much harder than many of the Rebel ships, and much harder than the ships you'd often find in most Imperial lists (ISDs, Demolisher). If there is an 'ideal' way to run it, it's not obvious and requires a ton of practice to understand how it works.

I'm sure I've said this before, but Raiders appreciate getting first+last but they don't need it. What they need is at least activation parity or preferably activation superiority so they can show up somewhere only once their landing zone has cooled down. They need to be played conservatively until it's time to do something reckless (pouncing on something, posting up in an area an enemy was going to go, step on the gas to GTFO, etc.) and starting them off at speed 2 is the correct move 95% of the time.

You can play Raiders without activation parity but they don't really get a chance to shine that way. At best they'll be okay picket ships when used that way.

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1 minute ago, Snipafist said:

Raiders appreciate getting first+last but they don't need it. What they need is at least activation parity or preferably activation superiority so they can show up somewhere only once their landing zone has cooled down

This. The most important advice about playing raiders.

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2 minutes ago, PT106 said:

This. The most important advice about playing raiders.

Raiders are by far the toughest ship to handle.  They can serve multiple roles, which adds to the difficulty in their mastery.

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We tend to hold them back a bit. Once the big guys start firing, landing a Raider in means they can ignore your Raider and focus your big one down or kill the raider and give your big one breathing room. 

 

As a squad killer, we have never liked them in a squadron free list. A couple of squads, just enough to eat shots for a turn. Allow the raider to arrive untouched and put out the hate. Alternatively, we use its flak opportunistically, to turn the tide of a squad fight.

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1 minute ago, Church14 said:

As a squad killer, we have never liked them in a squadron free list. A couple of squads, just enough to eat shots for a turn. Allow the raider to arrive untouched and put out the hate. 

This this this this AKA why I hate them

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53 minutes ago, PT106 said:

In a squadron free list they're usually playing a different role. If they're bombing your raider, they aren't bombing your ISD! ;)

I'm really curious if squadless Imperial fleets are going to get any fun use from a Raider with Instigator (engages squads title) with Tua, Early Warning System, Ordnance Experts, and Flechettes. If you can time it right, it lets you lock down a fair number of squads for quite some time (as you pin them in place at distance 1 of your obstructed arc and then keep flakking them and making them sleepy when necessary with Flechettes). You're not going to be able to keep it up forever unless your opponent blunders right into it, but it might be worth the 64 points to buy a turn or two (or three?) of safety for the rest of your fleet.

Edited by Snipafist

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8 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I'm really curious if squadless Imperial fleets are going to get any fun use from a Raider with Instigator (engages squads title) with Tua, Early Warning System, Ordnance Experts, and Flechettes. If you can time it right, it lets you lock down a fair number of squads for quite some time (as you pin them in place at distance 1 of your obstructed arc and then keep flakking them and making them sleepy when necessary with Flechettes). You're not going to be able to keep it up forever unless your opponent blunders right into it, but it might be worth the 64 points to buy a turn or two (or three?) of safety for the rest of your fleet.

I'm not sure if it's going to be worth the points. I think its going to have issues similar to Tua/ECM Gozanti - you're paying 50% premium on a chassis that is still pretty fragile. I would expect a Raider equipped like this to be prioritized and to die fast from ships before it can get it's investment worth (or to be dead points vs a squadron-light matchup)

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14 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

You're not going to be able to keep it up forever unless your opponent blunders right into it, but it might be worth the 64 points to buy a turn or two (or three?) of safety for the rest of your fleet.

64 points = 8 TIE squadrons. I know which of those options I prefer for sheer maneuverability, and a lower likelihood of dying to ships. That said, it sounds like a cool way to support fighters / a delightful way to get a table flip from your opponent. :D

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8 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I'm not sure if it's going to be worth the points. I think its going to have issues similar to Tua/ECM Gozanti - you're paying 50% premium on a chassis that is still pretty fragile. I would expect a Raider equipped like this to be prioritized and to die fast from ships before it can get it's investment worth (or to be dead points vs a squadron-light matchup)

Oh it's jank for certain and I don't have high hopes for it, but if you were bringing a Raider anyways... maybe. Probably not, but maybe.

3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

64 points = 8 TIE squadrons. I know which of those options I prefer for sheer maneuverability, and a lower likelihood of dying to ships. That said, it sounds like a cool way to support fighters / a delightful way to get a table flip from your opponent. :D

The 8 TIE squadrons aren't a ship activation and require other ships to activate them. Some fleets can handle bossing around 8 TIEs, some can't.

If I'm running heavier Imperial where my big triangles don't mind yelling at squads now and then, 8 TIE squadrons have been solid for deployments and getting their points worth in just causing problems for enemy squads, though.

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19 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I'm really curious if squadless Imperial fleets are going to get any fun use from a Raider with Instigator (engages squads title) with Tua, Early Warning System, Ordnance Experts, and Flechettes. If you can time it right, it lets you lock down a fair number of squads for quite some time (as you pin them in place at distance 1 of your obstructed arc and then keep flakking them and making them sleepy when necessary with Flechettes). You're not going to be able to keep it up forever unless your opponent blunders right into it, but it might be worth the 64 points to buy a turn or two (or three?) of safety for the rest of your fleet.

Im skeptical about EWS in ships with small arcs.

As for the raider I'll concede there's probably an ideal way to play with it that I just can't see. I've tried playing it conservatively, but that also got them killed when they couldn't kill massed y/x wings fast enough for thier BCC norra combinations to obliterate them. Fighters are too reactive on deployment.

If there's a precise way raiders have to be played to work well, I'm gonna have to see a play through and understand what's going on.

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