Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ozmodon

Neutral character question?

Recommended Posts

If I have a neutral character can I run hero or villain cards with that character ? I'm talking about the new yellow neutral character. What page of the rulebook explains it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It can be pair with a hero or villain and the affiliated char gives you access to their affiliated cards. If you are just running Jawas..... umm you get only gray neut cards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It states that hero cards cannot be with villian  and the neutral characters can be in either deck but no where does it say that if a yellow neutral character is put  in a deck with a Red Hero Character  that  the yellow characters affiliation is magically changed something other than neutral. It only states that he can no longer put villain cards in the deck because it is with paired with a hero.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see that it may seem logical that a neutral character paired with a villain or hero  would be Hero or Villian but I'm not seeing anywhere where that is the case. The best I can tell by the rules it still remains neutral. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really trying to understand this. The words in red say, Neutral characters can be on any team. And it says, . If a team has all neutral characters, its deck 
cannot contain hero or villain cards. I'm not seeing that putting a neutral yellow character in with a Red Hero entitles him to Yellow Hero cards. The Yellow character  is still only neutral.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only requirement in the rule book for deck building is a color match. It doesn’t mention a color + faction match, so I would say adding a neutral yellow to a blue hero gives you access to yellow hero cards as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's FFG, the rules are incomplete. I would say once you have a hero character, you get hero cards, just like you get hero grey cards for having a hero character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The neutral character doesn't become a hero.  He's neutral and can be used with cards of the other factions just like a neutral upgrade can be used with characters of other factions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So we are going with it feels good vs as written  then? Trust me I'm not trying to be difficult and I definitely do not want to make the game more difficult than it already is becoming. I get that neutral cards can be in any deck. I'm just not seeing where that allows them access to more than what they are. Where I play it's  about a 50/50 split either way as to how this should work.  Until it gets in the FAQ  I guess we will go with the rule of, Guilt By Association.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

So we are going with it feels good vs as written  then? Trust me I'm not trying to be difficult and I definitely do not want to make the game more difficult than it already is becoming. I get that neutral cards can be in any deck. I'm just not seeing where that allows them access to more than what they are. Where I play it's  about a 50/50 split either way as to how this should work.  Until it gets in the FAQ  I guess we will go with the rule of, Guilt By Association.

The rulebook doesn’t specifically spell this out, but it is pretty clear. Having a Hero or Villain character makes your deck hero or villain. Having a color lets you include that color in your deck. It never mentions a color + faction match requirement. Page 12 of the RRG has these as two different rule points where color match does not mention faction at all. Thinking you need a color + faction match is a leap that just isn’t spelled out in the rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, gokubb said:

The rulebook doesn’t specifically spell this out, but it is pretty clear. Having a Hero or Villain character makes your deck hero or villain. Having a color lets you include that color in your deck. It never mentions a color + faction match requirement. Page 12 of the RRG has these as two different rule points where color match does not mention faction at all. Thinking you need a color + faction match is a leap that just isn’t spelled out in the rules.

I like the way you put that

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a math professor IRL.  When using standard logic, an "if, then" statement is only False when the "if" part is TRUE and the "then" part is False.  In other words, those are the only cases where you cannot do something when deckbuilding are when you would try to build a deck that satisfies the "if' part of one of the "if, then" statements and doesn't satisfy the "then" part of the statement.   The deckbuilding guidelines for "side" (hero/neutral/villain) and color (blue/red/yellow/grey) do not overlap anywhere in terms of restrictions so you can't make any statements that impose additional restrictions combining side and color.

 

Here are the relevant entries for this example where you build a team with a Red Hero Character and a Yellow Neutral using the RRG, p. 12 on building a deck.'

 

In regards to using hero, neutral and villain cards, there is no reference to color so that doesn't apply here.  All that matters is your team has a hero character and a villain character.

"If a teams has hero characters, its deck cannot include villain cards."

Your team has a hero character, therefore the "if" part is true and you have to also follow the "then" part.   This gives you a restriction is you cannot use villain cards, this means you CAN use any non-villain card, which at this point means hero or neutral.

 

"If a team has villain characters, its deck cannot include hero cards".

Your team has no villain characters.  Since the "if part" of this statement is false, there are no other restrictions you have to follow.

 

"If a team has only neutral characters, its deck cannot contain hero cards or villain cards."

Your team has a hero character.  Since the "if" part of this statement is false, there are no other restrictions you have to follow.

 

"Neutral cards can be included in any deck"

This is actually redundant based on the first three statements, but it's there and since you  are playing you can include neutral cards.

 

 

So putting these three statements together in regards to hero, neutral and villain cards - a deck containing a hero character and neutral character, can use hero and neutral cards.  Color doesn't come into play with this restriction.

 

Now go to color deckbuilding restrictions.  Notice they don't mention hero, villain or neutral at all so you can't add that aspect as a restriction.

"Blue, red and yellow cards can only be included in the deck if the team includes a character of the matching color" 

Your team has red and yellow characters, therefore you can include red or yellow cards. 

"Grey cards can be included in any deck."

You are playing so you can include grey cards.

 

So putting these together you are entitled to use red, yellow or grey cards.   "side" doesn't come into play with this restriction.

 

So the basic question you asked was if you have a red hero character and yellow neutral character, can you use yellow hero cards? 

 

The answer is YES because it meets the criteria I outlined above.

 

By the "side" restriction you are allowed to use hero and villain cards with no other restrictions.

By the "color" restriction you are allowed to use red, yellow and grey cards with no other restrictions

 

A Yellow hero card meets both of these conditions because you are allowed to use hero cards and yellow cards.

 

 

I

 

 

 

 

Edited by yodaman1971

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, yodaman1971 said:

I'm a math professor IRL.  When using standard logic, an "if, then" statement is only False when the "if" part is TRUE and the "then" part is False.  In other words, those are the only cases where you cannot do something when deckbuilding are when you would try to build a deck that satisfies the "if' part of one of the "if, then" statements and doesn't satisfy the "then" part of the statement.   The deckbuilding guidelines for "side" (hero/neutral/villain) and color (blue/red/yellow/grey) do not overlap anywhere in terms of restrictions so you can't make any statements that impose additional restrictions combining side and color.

 

Here are the relevant entries for this example where you build a team with a Red Hero Character and a Yellow Neutral using the RRG, p. 12 on building a deck.'

 

In regards to using hero, neutral and villain cards, there is no reference to color so that doesn't apply here.  All that matters is your team has a hero character and a villain character.

"If a teams has hero characters, its deck cannot include villain cards."

Your team has a hero character, therefore the "if" part is true and you have to also follow the "then" part.   This gives you a restriction is you cannot use villain cards, this means you CAN use any non-villain card, which at this point means hero or neutral.

 

"If a team has villain characters, its deck cannot include hero cards".

Your team has no villain characters.  Since the "if part" of this statement is false, there are no other restrictions you have to follow.

 

"If a team has only neutral characters, its deck cannot contain hero cards or villain cards."

Your team has a hero character.  Since the "if" part of this statement is false, there are no other restrictions you have to follow.

 

"Neutral cards can be included in any deck"

This is actually redundant based on the first three statements, but it's there and since you  are playing you can include neutral cards.

 

 

So putting these three statements together in regards to hero, neutral and villain cards - a deck containing a hero character and neutral character, can use hero and neutral cards.  Color doesn't come into play with this restriction.

 

Now go to color deckbuilding restrictions.  Notice they don't mention hero, villain or neutral at all so you can't add that aspect as a restriction.

"Blue, red and yellow cards can only be included in the deck if the team includes a character of the matching color" 

Your team has red and yellow characters, therefore you can include red or yellow cards. 

"Grey cards can be included in any deck."

You are playing so you can include grey cards.

 

So putting these together you are entitled to use red, yellow or grey cards.   "side" doesn't come into play with this restriction.

 

So the basic question you asked was if you have a red hero character and yellow neutral character, can you use yellow hero cards? 

 

The answer is YES because it meets the criteria I outlined above.

 

By the "side" restriction you are allowed to use hero and villain cards with no other restrictions.

By the "color" restriction you are allowed to use red, yellow and grey cards with no other restrictions

 

A Yellow hero card meets both of these conditions because you are allowed to use hero cards and yellow cards.

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to put all this down. I know it will satisfy the group I play with.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After talking with my group and rereading this post I can say that no where does it  specifically say that neutral can put hero or villain cards in their deck.  I do admit that some of you have the gift of gab. Our new neutral character Hondo has a good special because he doesn't have access  to Yellow Hero and Villian cards on his own. Yes neutral cards can be used  by both sides but in no way does that make them anything other than neutral. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*sigh*

Ozmodon...  

Just...

No.

 

People have explained to you. Very clearly, why your deck has access to neutral and hero or villain cards in whatever colour your characters allow. They have referenced the rules and even broken them down into bitesize chunks to make it clearer...

 

 

Good luck trying to argue your side at the next tournament you play.

Edited by Stu35

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here it is, simple and easy to understand:

 

Hero allows access to Hero & Neutral cards (matching colors or Grey)

Villain allows access to Villain & Neutral cards (matching colors or Grey)

Neutral allows access to Neutral cards only (matching colors or Grey)

 

If Hero AND Villain can't mix (outside of draft), where do you get that you can have both in your deck?

 

Learn 2 Play.

Thanks,
~D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ozmodon said:

After talking with my group and rereading this post I can say that no where does it  specifically say that neutral can put hero or villain cards in their deck.  I do admit that some of you have the gift of gab. Our new neutral character Hondo has a good special because he doesn't have access  to Yellow Hero and Villian cards on his own. Yes neutral cards can be used  by both sides but in no way does that make them anything other than neutral. 

   If you truly think that the rules prevent the inclusion of yellow hero cards in the case of your team being a red hero and yellow neutral character, you should be able to back that up in the rules and, the way they are written, you cannot do that.  Saying nothing specifically allows it is a flawed argument because it's ignoring the logical implications of the rules. 

After teaching for many, many years I've learned that sometimes things need to be phrased differently for people in order to get them to understand what's going on in a situation or problem.  

So I ask your group to honestly (rather than making assumptions that don't exist) look at it this way instead.  Instead of asking "why can I do something?", when looking at the question you asked, try asking "why can't I do something?"

 So in this case, you need to ask "what in the rules prevents the inclusion of a yellow hero card if your team is a red hero character and a yellow neutral character?"  

The answer, as I outlined above (and I have a Ph.D. in math and have been a math professor for 20 years), is clear when looking at the rules.  Absolutely nothing prevents you from including a yellow hero card if your team has a red hero character and a yellow neutral character.

   With all due respect, and I don't mean for this to come off rude because that's definitely not my intent, people make flaws when applying rules of logic all the time and your group is unfortunately doing that. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by yodaman1971

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, yodaman1971 said:

   If you truly think that the rules prevent the inclusion of yellow hero cards in the case of your team being a red hero and yellow neutral character, you should be able to back that up in the rules and, the way they are written, you cannot do that.

After teaching for many, many years I've learned that sometime things need to be phrased differently for people in order to get them to understand what's going on in a situation or problem.   So I ask your group to honestly (rather than going with what you think you know) to look at it this way instead.  Instead of asking "why can I do something?", when looking at the question you asked, try asking "why can't I do something?"

 So in this case, you need to ask "what in the rules prevents the inclusion of a yellow hero card if your team is a red hero character and a yellow neutral character?"  

The answer, as I outlined above (and I have a Ph.D. in math and have been a math professor for 20 years), is clear when looking at the rules.  Absolutely nothing prevents it when you read the rules.    With all due respect, and I don't mean for this to come off rude because that's definitely not my intent, people make flaws when applying rules of logic all the time and your group is unfortunately doing that. 

 

 

 

 

I can see both sides of the coin in the rule on page 12 of deck the each paragraph or point are separate.  Still calling a penny change doesn't make it more than a penny. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't believe I am getting in the middle of this but maybe the new section on how Plots can be included will help.   This is found on page 5, 

 

"A hero or villain plot can only be selected if there is a character of that affiliation on a player’s team. A Blue, Red, or Yellow plot can only be selected if there is a character of that color on a player’s team."

 

Bold is from me for emphases, and all it says is "a character of..." so as long as at least one of the characters (doesn't have to be the same character for both rules since it is two separate sentences) meets the requirement for the rule you are allowed to include the card.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, HoodieDM said:

If Hero AND Villain can't mix (outside of draft), where do you get that you can have both in your deck?

 

Literally no one has argued that point. You may be in the wrong thread?

 

This one is about whether or not a team with a Neutral Yellow character can also take Hero (if he is paired with hero characters) or Villain (if paired with villain characters) Yellow cards in it's deck.

Which it can. If you have a Hero character in red and a Neutral character in yellow, you can take Red, Yellow and Grey cards of Hero and Neutral alignment.  

As explained, at length, above.

Edited by Stu35

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ozmodon said:

I can see both sides of the coin in the rule on page 12 of deck the each paragraph or point are separate.  Still calling a penny change doesn't make it more than a penny. 

 I usually don't reply on these boards unless I see incorrect math or incorrect logic and then I feel obligated because of my background in mathematics to jump in and clear things up.  This is one of those cases. 

I suggested your group specifically reference the parts of the rules that justify your belief that you couldn't include a yellow hero card if your team consists of a red hero character and neutral character.  Your response didn't cite anything specific on page 12 and just said you could see both sides of the coin, but didn't provide any specifics.  

If your group really thinks you can't do what everyone, including me, has been saying you're allowed to do (include yellow hero cards in a deck with a red hero character and a yellow neutral character), then you should be able to specify the sections of the rules that explicitly forbids it.  Your group hasn't cited anything specific yet and there's a reason for that - nothing exists in the rules to logically justify the exclusion of yellow hero cards in a deck with a red hero character and a yellow neutral character.

Saying that you can't include the yellow hero cards in a deck with a red hero character and yellow neutral character simply because there isn't some explicit statement in the rules allowing it is a flawed logical argument, because of the following 2 things:

1.  There  isn't anything explicitly in the rules that forbids you from using yellow hero cards in a deck with a red hero character and a yellow neutral character.

2.  Applying formal logic to the rules about deckbuilding as written leads to the conclusion and implication that you can include yellow hero cards in a deck with a red hero character and a yellow neutral character. 

 

It's important to remember there is a difference between implication and intent.  Implication means it follows logically from the rules as written and that's what's happening here.  It's not that FFG wrote the rules poorly and leave it up to people to guess at their intent.  It's a logical implication.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by yodaman1971

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×