Strategic Advisor

[Drasnighta 26,832]

People have a generally lower opinion when external credentials are flashed...  I guess because it’s partially a forced authority, and partially unverified bragging...

No one has ever respected mine, anyway. ?

[Undeadguy 5,749]

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

But that’s not what the card says...

 

thw words “a ship” are not there.

11 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Your turn to activate a ship, or your ship's turn to be activated?

Doesn't matter.

You can use SAd regardless of the activation status of the equipped ship.

Ship Phase
During this phase, the first player activates one of his ships. Then the second player activates one of his own ships. Players continue taking turns in this manner until all ships have been activated.

• Players cannot activate ships that have already been activated.
• If a player has no unactivated ships remaining, he must pass his turn for the rest of the phase.

SAd occurs before any ship is chosen to be activated. It's timing is when you pick a ship to activate. And there is no predetermined activation order, with the exception of Pryce and Bail, so turn cannot refer to the ship it is attached to, because I'm under no obligation to choose that ship to activate unless it is the last ship left to activate. 

The way some people seem to think this card is used makes little sense.

1. It is my turn to activate a ship.
2. I designate I will activate the ship with SAd attached to.
3. Psych, I exhaust SAd instead since the timing window was "When it is your turn (literally the ship) to activate"
4. Pass my turn.

 

[Drasnighta 26,832]

So, you’re not doing what the card says, you’re ignoring the status of “you” in the rules and utilizing another statement to verify your position.

 

which is, yknow, cool and all... because everyone else is doing the same...

its just not as simple as reading the card.   ?

 

 

im also being an ***, and should be ignored... because this topic can’t be solved by us, we are ALL just blustering .

Edited January 30, 2018 by Drasnighta

[Undeadguy 5,749]

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

So, you’re not doing what the card says, you’re ignoring the status of “you” in the rules and utilizing another statement to verify your position.

 

which is, yknow, cool and all... because everyone else is doing the same...

its just not as simple as reading the card.   ?

 

 

im also being an ***, and should be ignored... because this topic can’t be solved by us, we are ALL just blustering .

I'm using the card in a fashion that allows it to be played, which is something you are a stickler on right?

Otherwise, how do I designate I am going to activate the ship SAd is on? If I have 5 ships, one of them being an ISD with SAd equipped and it's my turn to activate a ship, what method is there to show I intended to activate the ISD, but then SAd timing window opened and allowed me to pass?

[Don Henderson fan club 85]

9 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

its just not as simple as reading the card.   ?

You're right, it's not that simple - one (intentionally avoiding the "y" word) has to read the rules as well.

Rules Reference, p13: "On upgrade card effects, the term “you” refers to the ship that the upgrade is equipped to."

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

25 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

And as Ard says, what do we do in the meantime.

We build a solid case (preferably color-coded) for each possible interpretation, and we present those to the TO (or our local gaming group or rules guru). And we go with whatever they decide, until they change their mind or FFG speaks up.

I think the case has been pretty solidly built already:

1. The rules say "you" means "this ship". In the absence of evidence to the contrary, this is how cards should always be interpreted.
2. However, there are various cards (Bail, Tua, Hondo and others) where this is not true and "you" clearly means "the player". So there are exceptions to the above.
3. The wording of Strategic Advisor relies on "you" performing a function (taking a turn) that, in the RRG, corresponds to a player (i.e. is never performed by ships). And immediately after, the opposing player is explicitly instructed to perform the same function.

The question for the TO is: do you think the evidence under (3) is sufficient to prove that this card constitutes an exception under (2), and therefore overrules the general rule under (1)?

The TO can then make a ruling based on his or her perception of RAI, balance, and/or any other factors he or she deems relevant. It is the TO's prerogative.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

22 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

And just for the record, while "sheepyhead" and others clearly have a low opinion of me

I don't think anybody has a low opinion of you (or at least, I didn't before what has to have been a drunken rant of a PM I got from you). You're just taking disagreement and mild barbs pretty personally.

Even Dras, who's been doing this extremely well here every day for like 3 years, gets abusive PM's and vigorous disagreement all the time as his thanks.

Nobody here has a problem with you personally, dude. Just give thoughtful input, be willing to disagree without getting defensive, and credibility will come. If you really do have the technical writing capability you claim, people will recognize it pretty quickly and value your input.

We can always use more intelligent input here. All we get from Ovi is funny gifs.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I'm using the card in a fashion that allows it to be played, which is something you are a stickler on right?

Otherwise, how do I designate I am going to activate the ship SAd is on? If I have 5 ships, one of them being an ISD with SAd equipped and it's my turn to activate a ship, what method is there to show I intended to activate the ISD, but then SAd timing window opened and allowed me to pass?

You as the player have s turn.

you designate a ship to activate.

it is now that ships turn to activate.

 

you can use Strategic advisor, if it is equipped to that ship.

 

perfectly useable.

....if you have not already let that ship have a turn to activate...

 

Thats the argument counter, anyway.

The problem with stressing “the cards tell us we can ignore/modify the rules” in order to come to a solution, is that the other side can to....

 

... and we end up at an impass.

Do I wish I had a cut and dried solution? Sure. I do for the World Cup and for Hothgary, but nowhere else, because as you of all people know - we can’t be telling TOs what decision to make... you get abused for that...

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

2 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

We build a solid case (preferably color-coded) for each possible interpretation, and we present those to the TO (or our local gaming group or rules guru). And we go with whatever they decide, until they change their mind or FFG speaks up.

I think the case has been pretty solidly built already:

1. The rules say "you" means "this ship". In the absence of evidence to the contrary, this is how cards should always be interpreted.
2. However, there are various cards (Bail, Tua, Hondo and others) where this is not true and "you" clearly means "the player". So there are exceptions to the above.
3. The wording of Strategic Advisor relies on "you" performing a function (taking a turn) that, in the RRG, corresponds to a player (i.e. is never performed by ships). And immediately after, the opposing player is explicitly instructed to perform the same function.

The question for the TO is: do you think the evidence under (3) is sufficient to prove that this card constitutes an exception under (2), and therefore overrules the general rule under (1)?

The TO can then make a ruling based on his or her perception of RAI, balance, and/or any other factors he or she deems relevant. It is the TO's prerogative.

/thread

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

22 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Doesn't matter.

You can use SAd regardless of the activation status of the equipped ship.

Ship Phase
During this phase, the first player activates one of his ships. Then the second player activates one of his own ships. Players continue taking turns in this manner until all ships have been activated.

• Players cannot activate ships that have already been activated.
• If a player has no unactivated ships remaining, he must pass his turn for the rest of the phase.

SAd occurs before any ship is chosen to be activated. It's timing is when you pick a ship to activate. And there is no predetermined activation order, with the exception of Pryce and Bail, so turn cannot refer to the ship it is attached to, because I'm under no obligation to choose that ship to activate unless it is the last ship left to activate. 

The way some people seem to think this card is used makes little sense.

1. It is my turn to activate a ship.
2. I designate I will activate the ship with SAd attached to.
3. Psych, I exhaust SAd instead since the timing window was "When it is your turn (literally the ship) to activate"
4. Pass my turn.

 

From your point of view I could use it during the squadron phase.

During this phase, the first player activates two of his squadrons. Then the second player activates two of his own squadrons. Players continue taking turns in this manner until all squadrons have been activated.

 

[Undeadguy 5,749]

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You as the player have s turn.

you designate a ship to activate.

it is now that ships turn to activate.

 

you can use Strategic advisor, if it is equipped to that ship.

 

perfectly useable.

....if you have not already let that ship have a turn to activate...

 

Thats the argument counter, anyway.

The problem with stressing “the cards tell us we can ignore/modify the rules” in order to come to a solution, is that the other side can to....

 

... and we end up at an impass.

Do I wish I had a cut and dried solution? Sure. I do for the World Cup and for Hothgary, but nowhere else, because as you of all people know - we can’t be telling TOs what decision to make... you get abused for that...

Designating a ship to activate is not a mechanic though. Each ship only has 2 states. Activated or unactivated. There is no intermediate, thus there is not window for SAd to trigger. 

[Undeadguy 5,749]

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

From your point of view I could use it during the squadron phase.

 

 

 

I mean sure, but since there is no ship to activate the card does nothing.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

11 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

We can always use more intelligent input here. All we get from Ovi is funny gifs.

Ovi is the god I worship and you should too.

[CenterPoint 268]

not to throw a wrench in the works, but what happens when facing someone who also has this card?

ex)

player one : I'll pass my activation and tap SA

player two: I'll also pass my activation and tap my SA

player one: well that didn't work?

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I mean sure, but since there is no ship to activate the card does nothing.

My opponent activate a ship instead. 

Over costed this way of course. 

[Don Henderson fan club 85]

6 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

However, there are various cards (Bail, Tua, Hondo and others) where this is not true and "you" clearly means "the player". So there are exceptions to the above.

But the first "you" on the Tua card is fairly definitely the ship - players don't normally have upgrade bars.   Perhaps it would be better if we did - I could certainly do with a memory upgrade.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

7 minutes ago, CenterPoint said:

not to throw a wrench in the works, but what happens when facing someone who also has this card?

ex)

player one : I'll pass my activation and tap SA

player two: I'll also pass my activation and tap my SA

player one: well that didn't work?

Yea they just cancel out. 

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

18 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

 

1. The wording of Strategic Advisor relies on "you" performing a function (taking a turn) that, in the RRG, corresponds to a player (i.e. is never performed by ships). And immediately after, the opposing player is explicitly instructed to perform the same function.

The problem I have in this is that if we based that on the fact that the rules say players take turns, not the ships... what happens with Tractor Beams?

Ships don't activate!

During this phase, the first

player activates one of his ships. Then the second player activates one of his own ships. Players continue taking turns in this manner until all ships have been activated.

Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps.

Is that you pointing to the player? if yes, then we may trigger Tractor Beams when activating any ship.

 

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

6 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

But the first "you" on the Tua card is fairly definitely the ship - players don't normally have upgrade bars.   Perhaps it would be better if we did - I could certainly do with a memory upgrade.

He refers to the second part I think. I had to look at it. 

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

9 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Ships don't activate!

Yeah, they do.

Ships activate (or are activated, makes no difference).

Players take turns (activating ships).

I already did this exercise earlier in the thread: every single instance of "turn" in the RRG is directly linked to "player". Every single instance of "activation" is linked to "ship". 

[Don Henderson fan club 85]

3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

He refers to the second part I think. I had to look at it. 

The more I re-read the upgrade cards, the more convinced I am that the writer is always referring to the ship when he uses "you/your". Granted, he is often imbuing the ship with the powers of the player, but personally I don't thnk that kind of personification invalidates the "you/ship" rule. It does make for an interesting writing style though!

But as already pointed out, it's FFG who will make the decision.

[Lemmiwinks86 934]

16 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Is that you pointing to the player? if yes, then we may trigger Tractor Beams when activating any ship.

Or even when activating a squadron

Edited January 30, 2018 by Lemmiwinks86

[stonestokes 737]

I've created a poll on this topic located here:
 

 

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

6 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Yeah, they do.

Ships activate (or are activated, makes no difference).

It does. At least if we base the argument on who takes turns. I didn't check the whole RRG but on the main sections ships don't activate. Players do.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

12 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I didn't check the whole RRG but on the main sections ships don't activate. Players do.

So what you're saying is... I am the Star Destroyer.