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ElderKoala

"I'm out!" - Dealing with Ammo in Genesys

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Being honest, although I wouldn't go the route of ammo counting I see no reason you couldn't if that was what you wanted. I  agree that the John Woo style outlook to ammo is  nicer but it would take only a little thought by the ref to change that.

Assume an SMG fires semi-auto by default (3 round burst) from a 30 round capacity, the weapon will need to be reloaded after 10 attacks. If the firer changes to fully auto then the ammo cost goes up to 10 (or 5 if you prefer) increasing the damage by 1 and reducing the crit by 1 but decreasing the number of attacks before reloading and adding a black dice for recoil (if appropriate). If the firer switches to single shot you get more attacks but reduce the damage by 1 and increase the crit by 1. 

For weapons which only fire on one mode the amount of attacks is fixed.

E

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Only as much as one attack roll equals a burst of fire somewhere between one shot and fully automatic. I never said that the system worked like this, I said that a ref could make it work by putting a little thought in.

In my earlier text I specifically stated that this was based on an assumption, a decision made to make ammunition counting possible.

For myself I prefer the official way of assuming you reload off camera, but I disagree with anyone who says counting rounds can't work in this system.

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Ammo is something easy to resolve in fact. In the core of the system, this doesn't matter, just it.

I can say that I would love to play games like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk using Genesys, and they are systems with a lot of fireweapons, but I really don't care about ammo... maybe is so easy to pick a new round, or cause the Despair must have a better use in other ways... i just assume that a character who prefer to use these weapons has ammo enough to keep doing his job during a long time in the game.

Being out of ammo should be a dramatic part of the narrative, which makes sense in a lot of scenarios, with scarce resources. And like I've said, it's not hard to resolve.

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Again, I prefer to maintain the narrative style as per Edge of the Empire etc. but my comments are only a suggestion for anyone who wants to make ammunition a scarce resource.

My personal preference is ammunition runs out only if important to the plot or otherwise a dramatic point. My above suggestions are only to show if could be done, not that I would and not because I am claiming that this is how the rules work.

If someone wants to count bullets I am happy for them to try the above suggestion.

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@GM Hooly's mate GM Huzz did a sci-fi armour which, like the damned Genesys book, has no stats for a knife ( :D ) but which I might utterly steal some ideas from.

One idea there which I thought was relevant here and good was the special condition "Click Click X", where X = the value of threat a GM can make a player spend to have the weapon run out of ammo. I can't access dropbox now because I'm at work but I am pretty sure I have the right of it and it wasn't GM spending advantage in their turn..

Anyway, the reason I tagged Hooly is because he can probably elaborate further on that. And as an alternative, I proposed giving your players a fixed number of rounds before they have to take a manoeuvre to reload. i.e. "you have a light pistol, so after 3 rounds of attacks you'll need to reload. You, other player, you have a heavy pistol so you'll reload after 4 rounds...".

I really like Huzz's suggestion and will give my players the choice of that option or having fixed rounds before they should run dry so they can plan around it.

But, to @eldath's comment above; "My personal preference is ammunition runs out only if important to the plot or otherwise a dramatic point" - I give an enthusiastic "strewth!" to. As GMs we should take advantage of clips on YouTube from film, television and games to show ways in which fights in a firearms era game (from pulp, Western, World War, etc to sci-fi) can be more than just a first person shooter. How melee and brawn can be used, and how advantage and the lack of an attack of opportunity can make placement critical - literally positioning  yourself so other NPCs have their line of sight blocked by the guy you're engaged in fistictuffs with.

 

 

 

 

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Hey guys, GM Huzz here.

Click-click as it's written in my Armoury is two threat from your roll may be used by the GM to have the weapon run out of ammo. I created it specifically for revolvers to represent their less then average ammo capacity without having to force players to keep track of Limited Ammo. 

I didn't give Click-Click a rating as I felt it would be somewhat arbitrary. Having it at a fixed 2 threat means the GM doesn't have to ask th player what their weapons specific Click-Click value is, they just need to know the weapon has it.

As for the topic at hand, I don't think ammo for weapons (except those few with Limited Ammo) should be tracked in Genesys. It just adds unnecessary layer of crunch. However a blanket rule could be added: all weapons can run out of ammo on 3 threat. This way it'll be a far more common occurrence then just happening on a Despair, and the amount of time three threat will be rolled will feel like the amount of time a clip or magazine would run out of ammo.

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14 hours ago, KingNova3000 said:

Click-click as it's written in my Armoury is two threat from your roll may be used by the GM to have the weapon run out of ammo. I created it specifically for revolvers to represent their less then average ammo capacity without having to force players to keep track of Limited Ammo. 

In my Star Wars campaign, similarly, I made the description of the Heavy Blaster Pistol running out of ammo more easily (3 Threats, not just a Despair), into the "Ammo Hog" quality.

Ammo Hog 1 means 3 Threats may cause it to run out of ammo, Ammo Hog 2 means 2 Threats can be used. I gave a few weapons Ammo Hog 1, such as the Heavy Blaster Pistol and slughthrowers. I also ruled that any weapon making an Autofire attack gained another point of Ammo Hog so you are more prone to running out of ammo if you go full-auto.

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:28 AM, eldath said:

Assume an SMG fires semi-auto by default (3 round burst) from a 30 round capacity, the weapon will need to be reloaded after 10 attacks. If the firer changes to fully auto then the ammo cost goes up to 10 (or 5 if you prefer) increasing the damage by 1 and reducing the crit by 1 but decreasing the number of attacks before reloading and adding a black dice for recoil (if appropriate). If the firer switches to single shot you get more attacks but reduce the damage by 1 and increase the crit by 1. 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I had assumed Extra Reloads, at 1 Encumbrance each, was more then just another single magazine / single reload of the weapon. My assumption is during the normal, narrative flow of combat, actual magazine changes are not being accounted for. During movement, small lulls, magazines are being dumped and swapped out. The "standard" load could account for a few magazines, not just one, depending on the weapon's ammo capacity. Extra Reloads is thus a backup reserve of possibly a few magazines shoved in an extra kit bag, as apposed to up front in an easy place to grab them. Thus, it takes a Maneuver to get to your Extra Reloads and make them ready for standard use.

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37 minutes ago, Sturn said:

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I had assumed Extra Reloads, at 1 Encumbrance each, was more then just another single magazine / single reload of the weapon. My assumption is during the normal, narrative flow of combat, actual magazine changes are not being accounted for. During movement, small lulls, magazines are being dumped and swapped out. The "standard" load could account for a few magazines, not just one, depending on the weapon's ammo capacity. Extra Reloads is thus a backup reserve of possibly a few magazines shoved in an extra kit bag, as apposed to up front in an easy place to grab them. Thus, it takes a Maneuver to get to your Extra Reloads and make them ready for standard use.

In Star Wars you are correct, Ammunition is considered to be not important enough to break the flow of the action. This is the way I prefer it personally. The extra reload is something you purchase to bypass any Despair you may roll, preventing the ref from declaring you out. Genesys Modern day however suggests it as being single use. My comments were simply a suggestion for how to run ammunition being a bit more important for others who may not like the standard ammunition rules. With the assumptions I made and in the circumstance of a group wanting to use these rules the extra reload may need a little work but in general could be used to cover the ammunition cost.

As I say, I prefer the original set up of not worrying about ammunition unless dramatically appropriate but when it comes to role-playing there is no such thing as a wrong way of doing something so long as the group are enjoying themselves.

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In Genesys isn't impossible to deal with this. I guess the book talks a little about horror stories, and in this kind of gamestyle, the resources are pretty scarce, like ammo. I don't know if the book talks about this in specific but it's a common thing in a lot of games. It's possible to play fast and furious, but not with ammo to fight. It's just more about thinking very well during the battles or avoid fights as much as possible.

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No but nobody's saying infinite ammo guns. They're saying that having bullets vs not having bullets, as in scarcity, is for the GM to add in. Otherwise it's assumed you reload. Otherwise, you can elect to use GM Huzz (aka @KingNova3000's) Click Click rule, which gives the GM the right (but not obligation) to spend threat to empty a weapon*; or you could tell your players they have X rounds before they must take a manouvre to reload, using up a finite resource from their character sheet OR use an action to pick up an enemy's discarded weapon. 

(* Despite me wording this like it's a Put or Call option on a stock, the wording was deliberate. I believe the intent is that GMs can use this; they're not expected to so any time they do use it it should be appropriate for the scene)

To me, as someone working through two session 0s of a modern era game, this is an invaluable rule because it frees the players up from micromanaging ammo (a GURPS/Spycraft issue) to just taking maybe one spare clip and hoping for the best. It also promotes them going into brawling or melee with an extendable baton or knife or something, to make the combat more dynamic. 

Would it be worth collating some film fights in as a way of showing how you can manage modern/firearms era combat in a way that's just not "i shoot, they shoot, but I get them to 0 first, huzzah"? 
 

 

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Woah!  Someone mentioned Spycraft!  The two crafty engines have been a staple at my table for years, but the Narrative dice were able to steal their way into our rotation.

I'm definitely adopting the click click rules from Nova (Huzz).  I'll incorporate reloads as equipment because my players may have missions or events where "getting back to base" is going to be nigh impossible and they may want the security blanket of at least 2 'long battles' before needing to go 'dumpster diving'.  (Not all the bad guys will have guns, so I'm balancing out realism while keeping the gun battle flowing.)  Jackie Chan movies are surprisingly good for Genesys inspiration.  Point gun.  Click.  No bullet.  Look dismayed.  Throw gun at nearest bad guy's face and steal his gun.  Keep going. lol

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I see 2 types of people those who usterestmate how much ammo to carry or over estimate how much. Most armed people with pistols have 2 extra mags which is genrally 21 to 50 rounds wich is genral enough for a gunfight in a spy cop cyberpunk modern game. Most soliders will have 6 loaded mags and 120 rounds in strippers. Enough for 1 or 2 firefight  (Kelly heros bivvy scene giving out more ammo).  So in a roundabout way I am saying I think most of the time most people have enough ammo. A cop like Riggs probably carries a couple more mags than avarage but not 6 or more.

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3 hours ago, Moglwi said:

I see 2 types of people those who usterestmate how much ammo to carry or over estimate how much. Most armed people with pistols have 2 extra mags which is genrally 21 to 50 rounds wich is genral enough for a gunfight in a spy cop cyberpunk modern game. Most soliders will have 6 loaded mags and 120 rounds in strippers. Enough for 1 or 2 firefight  (Kelly heros bivvy scene giving out more ammo).  So in a roundabout way I am saying I think most of the time most people have enough ammo. A cop like Riggs probably carries a couple more mags than avarage but not 6 or more.

I definitely agree for most games, usually everyone has plenty of Ammo. But in a post apocalyptic or survival toned game that’s not true, running out is likely, and scary as ****

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It's what i'm saying, but like I saw in the past comment, the previous about Genesys talked about the 5 settings and the description to use all of them, and as far I remember, it was said something about the possibility to play horror scenarios, that the book would have something about this. Idk if the book really has, but it should have infos like this, scarce resources... it's a common thing in horror scenarios, despite the monsters, it's what turns the difficult harder than an average scenario, details like "i haven't enough ammo to kill all of these monsters".

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If I was running a horror game or a post aplytic game with scare resources I would give people physical represtation like poker chips to represent  bullets and you hand in what you spend.  That is for when the setting means that 7 rounds of 9mm is a big deal. But most of the time I feel that using complications to force a reload and a despere mean you are out of ammo. You lost the clips or forgot them.

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19 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

The book has a horror tone but it mostly focuses on rules for fear and mental trauma. Presumably FFG might expand these rules eventually, but for now it's fairly limited.  

Thanks for this, and it's a shame the book missed this kind of detail.

But like someone said, I think making the ammo finishing with 3 or even 2 threaths (even 1, in an insane scenario...) in addition to a despair sounds an easily way to resolve the question. But we must always remember that is the GM who spend the threaths and despair for players, so it's important to have the feeling to use this in the right moments or something like this.

Edited by Bellyon

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9 minutes ago, Moglwi said:

If I was running a horror game or a post aplytic game with scare resources I would give people physical represtation like poker chips to represent  bullets and you hand in what you spend.  That is for when the setting means that 7 rounds of 9mm is a big deal. But most of the time I feel that using complications to force a reload and a despere mean you are out of ammo. You lost the clips or forgot them.

That’s a cool idea, we use poker chips for tracking Wounds and Strain, using some for rounds of Ammo would be very engaging 

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One thing I've considered is giving weapons a new stat; reloads. It'd indicate how many threats a specific weapon needs to run out of ammo. Weapons could vary pretty majorly; energy based weapons with large batteries might need a despair, but fully automatic bullet fed weapons might run out on 2 or 3 threats. 

Basically the same concept as the Click Click quality but with some more granularity. Would let you build talents and weapon attachments around ammo management too. 

 

Only something I'd add in settings where ammo management and scarcity are relevant, though. 

Edited by Tom Cruise

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9 hours ago, ElderKoala said:

Woah!  Someone mentioned Spycraft!  The two crafty engines have been a staple at my table for years, but the Narrative dice were able to steal their way into our rotation.

Remember how languages worked? I use that as my "how not to" for Genesys!

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16 minutes ago, Tom Cruise said:

One thing I've considered is giving weapons a new stat; reloads. It'd indicate how many threats a specific weapon needs to run out of ammo. Weapons could vary pretty majorly; energy based weapons with large batteries might need a despair, but fully automatic bullet fed weapons might run out on 2 or 3 threats. 

Basically the same concept as the Click Click quality but with some more granularity. Would let you build talents and weapon attachments around ammo management too. 

 

Only something I'd add in settings where ammo management and scarcity are relevant, though. 

I know it's easy to think about ammo, but i'm not sure if it is fine in Genesys... I guess the ammo as a stat is something that the players can manage, and i'm not sure it's the feeling in games like this. Well, in some games ok, but in other games i don't know the characters really know how much ammo still has. It's something that finish during the scene, which makes more sense using the threaths to be done, by the GM, you know?

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