Jump to content
Lightrock

It was good while it lasted I guess

Recommended Posts

Nymranda gets so much flak because of several design problems that kinda accumulate in one list. Problems such as:

- bombs completely ignoring AGI, which naturally makes them either too weak against ships that rely on HP/regen rather than avoidance or too strong against low HP/high agi ships. It was always nigh impossible to balance bombs, which means that initially hardly anyone ever used them and then they wiped out entire archetypes out of the meta.

- Sabine being way underpriced and making bombs too reliable.

- Bomblet generator granting infinite bombs, which practically removes decision making / mindgaming / resource management aspect from the game. You just drop a bomblet every time because why not. 

- Havoc title granting both system and droid slots while not removing the EPT slot. Without any one of those slots Nym would be somewhat managable. With all three, he is problematic.

- Trajectory Simulator allowing bombs to cover a massive area that extends from beyond the actual firing range (if they're launched after movement) all the way to the ship that fired them (if used before moving). Considering that the decision to launch them before or after moving is made at PS10, for most lists there's often literally no maneuver that would allow them to dodge them.

- Miranda's ability coupled with TLT making her extremely hard to kill in the late game, which means she becomes a very efficient point fortress.

- And last but not least, TLT has always been the best turret in the game by far and it's greatest flaw (R1 doughnut hole) is completely nullified by the presence of all those bombs. 

Taken together all those create a somewhat toxic experience. It feels like you need work extremely hard to get even a single shot off without eating a bomb while Nymranda player can just casually stroll forward and pepper you with TLT shots. And then you end up with a single ship against a nearly 50 point Miranda that you just can't kill. Ugh...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

- Havoc title granting both system and droid slots while not removing the EPT slot. Without any one of those slots Nym would be somewhat managable. With all three, he is problematic.

I like the idea of the Havoc title removing the EPT; are we could have it remove the Bomb slots....................................

Either way i like the idea of the Havoc title removing more for the benefit it grants.  

We could make TLT also remove bomb slot?

Edited by the1hodgy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, IG88E said:

Maybe just time to introduce half-point-prizes for small ships too

I't has been for a long time, now.

Another option could be making only points destroyed count for tiebreaker, but that has issues displaying the match difficulty. Those might not be bad enough to matter, though, and that system would stop discouraging flying more cheap ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Trajectory Simulator the root cause and Nym PS10 is causing the real pain the solution is neat and simple; just make it either a) Discard or b) You may not equip this is you have an EPT slot.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

22 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

Could FFG be ruining their own competitive game? I mean if you know you have to take X List to be competetive, then it will probably just be a mirror anyway, would you even go to events?

Theyve been doing that for quite some time now. They keep releasing imbalanced material quite regularly now.

 

22 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

No.  In a competitive environment, people will naturally try to tailor their squad for maximum efficiency, and when results come in people will then naturally gravitate towards proven, successful lists.  If you're going to blame anything for stifling diversity in the competitive game, blame the internet.

And yet you have other games that are able to provide a quite balanced environment. When i started, the Internet and netlisting were already a thing . They are there to stay so games need to adapt. Back then the meta was much more healthy than it is now.  While there was some small pikes in power lvl, outside of the phantom (which was quickly fixed) nothing was to the lvl of what we have today.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

What would you use to fill the remaining 4 points?  Personally, I lean towards Boba, Zuckuss, 4-LOM, and Greedo (plus LRS on all).  It's a list I like in theory, but I don't own the 4 Scurrgs.

Boba, Zuckuss, Inspiring Recruit and Intel Agent + LRS on all. Playing 4 Scurrgs scared most of my opponents just because of the amount of sheer shield and hull. 40 HP is the maximum amount you can have in 100/6 at the moment. They were quite exhausting to play on tournaments though, because ALL my games went over full time. After 6 rounds I felt like chewed on and spit out XD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm beginning to think that the problem lies in the very basic mechanics of the game, unfortunately. X-wing wasn't originally designed to be a massive competitive game. At it's core it's really quite simple mechanically and while this simplicity is a part of it's appeal, it makes the game hard to balance. For years now we've been dealing with a constant feast-or-famine problem, where things were either useless/niche or overpowered. It was like that with arc dodging, small ship turrets, ordnance and bombs. Sometimes a single upgrade card that looks niche at first glance can elevate certain cathegory of ships or weapons from meh to OP (I'm looking at you Autothrusters and at you TLT, and at you Sabine). It feels like the game is excessively prone to being unbalanced. 

By comparison, Armada's 7th wave is about to launch. The entirety of it's core set is still perfectly playable in a competitive setting at the highest level and it's FAQ is not only just a fraction of Xwing's but it's... actually a FAQ for the most part. Very few cards had to receive an errata and of those few, some had to receive it due to a genuine misprint rather than for balance reasons. Much as I love xwing, I can't deny that the game feels less and less stable with each passing year.

Edited by Lightrock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lightrock said:

 

By comparison, Armada's 7th wave is about to launch. The entirety of it's core set is still perfectly playable in a competitive setting at the highest level and it's FAQ is not only just a fraction of Xwing's but it's... actually a FAQ for the most part. Very few cards had to receive an errata and of those few, some had to receive it due to a genuine misprint rather than for balance reasons. Much as I love xwing, I can't deny that the game feels less and less stable with each passing year.

Naive question: Is that true? I thought armada had a pretty big errata recently because the last worlds was nothing but squadrons?

(I also understand that the errata appears to have worked, and people seemed pretty happy with armada's balance afterwards)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, the1hodgy said:

If Trajectory Simulator the root cause and Nym PS10 is causing the real pain the solution is neat and simple; just make it either a) Discard or b) You may not equip this is you have an EPT slot.

 

You could be right if TS was the root cause.

But it isnt, according to most of the opinions in this thread.

So please learn to read and accept other people opinions here, and dont ignore them. Its page 4, read the other 3 pages before you answer.

I will not repeat them for you. Go read yourself.

If you think its the root cause, explain why you would think so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Naive question: Is that true? I thought armada had a pretty big errata recently because the last worlds was nothing but squadrons?

(I also understand that the errata appears to have worked, and people seemed pretty happy with armada's balance afterwards)

There was one offending admiral (Rieekan) which was indeed too powerful if used in a squadron-heavy fleet, which forced the devs to errata a card for balance reasons for the very first time. That was already 5 waves in mind you, and the game has been reasonably balanced ever since. Xwing was plagued with balance problems from the very beginning - from TIE swarms to falcons to pre-nerf phantoms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, the1hodgy said:

If Trajectory Simulator the root cause and Nym PS10 is causing the real pain the solution is neat and simple; just make it either a) Discard or b) You may not equip this is you have an EPT slot.

 

6 hours ago, Rangor said:

You could be right if TS was the root cause. But it isnt, according to most of the opinions in this thread. So please learn to read and accept other people opinions here, and dont ignore them. Its page 4, read the other 3 pages before you answer. I will not repeat them for you. Go read yourself. If you think its the root cause, explain why you would think so.

The "root cause" is complicated, yet simple. It's very powerful mechanics stacked on a single ship. As a few examples:

Is Regen a bad game mechanic? Yes and no. On Miranda, when she uses a TLT to proc it, yes; on Luke in a T-65 when he's running away on greens, no.

Is an EPT on a Bomber bad game design? Clearly yes; Nym, can get to PS 10 with Advanced Sensors, Trajectory, and unlimited bombs which is nuts; there is no other of the game’s Bombers that have an EPT, except the illustrious TIE Bomber which actually, for all intents and purposes, not a Bomber at all.

Is Bomblet Generator a bad game mechanic? On Nym or Miranda, yes. On a Punisher (who plays them anyway?) no.

Are Harpoon Missiles bad? On Nym or Miranda, yes due to it stacking with other powerful mechanics. On Kiraxeraxes or Gunboats, no.

Are TLTs bad game design? On Nym, Miranda and a Ghost, yes. It could be argued that on Y-Wings and Aggressors (based on tournament finishes) it is OK power-wise, just not terribly fun to play against; but I think eveyone would agree it is a poorly designed card that can just go the h*** away.

Is Trajectory Stimulator (haha) a bad game mechanic? On Nym, yes. On the BFF or Punisher, no.

Is Sabine's card design and cost a bad game design? Yes, she should cost way more, or be a single use card.

Is Reinforce a bad game mechanic? Yes. I guess the only good thing is no one can fit this into the NymMiranda list, and  Nym Miranda cannot implement that ability themselves....yet. ?

It is a bit complicated, but simple in component analysis. It is when these OP game design components are stacked on a single ship, powerful issues arise that break the game. Put simply, both Nym and Miranda can stack these. And then to compound this problem, they are run together in a squad.

It is clear that this ability to power-stack these abilities are bad for the game.

Edited by clanofwolves
Fixed it ???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

There was one offending admiral (Rieekan) which was indeed too powerful if used in a squadron-heavy fleet, which forced the devs to errata a card for balance reasons for the very first time. That was already 5 waves in mind you, and the game has been reasonably balanced ever since. Xwing was plagued with balance problems from the very beginning - from TIE swarms to falcons to pre-nerf phantoms.

True.

But now, TIE Swarms, Fat Hans and Pre-nerf Phantoms wouldn't stand a chance on the mat. Which is sadness.....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather than massive errata to cards, why not a restricted list. Put both Nym and Miranda on, and boom, nerfed the combo of those two ships. 

Though, ideally, it would be multiple of the upgrade cards that would be on a restricted list. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Rangor said:

You could be right if TS was the root cause.

But it isnt, according to most of the opinions in this thread.

So please learn to read and accept other people opinions here, and dont ignore them. Its page 4, read the other 3 pages before you answer.

I will not repeat them for you. Go read yourself.

If you think its the root cause, explain why you would think so.

It's not the root cause. There isn't a root cause. There's a bunch. Reveal bombs were balanced with the idea that they'd be predictable and therefore easy to dodge. Genius was balanced on the assumption that the use case was Y Wings with bomb loadout. Harpoons seem to have been made intentionally amazing for what I can only assume is a plan to hurt large base low agility ships like VCXs and bring jousters back in a meaningful way. Nym... I don't think actually was balanced at all?

Trajectory Simulator I think was built for the Punisher and the BSF exclusively. Believe it or not, I think that this basic use case of a bomb blast followed up by missiles was intended behaviour. I just think it was intended on PS7 Redline and PS2 Cutlass Squadron pilots. Things you could PS kill before they shot at you, things that couldn't use guidance chips to add a crit. Things that couldn't use Sabine.

Trajectory Simulator isn't the entire problem as far as Nym goes. But it's a **** of a lot of it. If Nym has to drop his bombs behind him, even with Genius, he can't do the full-on Proton + Sabine + Harpoon all in one round of shooting. He can be jousted down by things like Wookiees, or high PS Alpha strikers. He can be blocked to turn off Genius. He has natural meta predators, and suddenly you're spending 50 plus points on a ship that might not get more than one bomb off. That might be fine, but probably not, and he'd drop away to a niche list.

The proposed fix is... Inelegant. I don't think it's what we should want. But something that takes Trajectory Simulator away from Nym would be a **** of a good start. Make it BSF only. Or large ship only. Or find some weird rules interpretation that prevents its use with Genius. But if TS was taken away, Captain Nym falls away fast I suspect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, codegnave said:

Having your defense be based on a dice roll is an imbalanced and unfun mechanic. Armada has the right idea imo.

I think the system could be refined, but I think the inherent variance of dice, while sometimes frustrating, makes the game better overall.  Without the potential risks and rewards of different plays, decisions would be much more regimented and many matchups would be even more lopsided.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. I also have this problem flying against those kinds of ships. They are so meta and I can't beat them so please don't bring them anymore...

*quietly continues flying the Ghost/AP/Poe and dominating Nymranda* 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

 

The "root cause" is complicated, yet simple. It's very powerful mechanics stacked on a single ship. As a few examples:

Is Regen a bad game mechanic, yes and no. On Miranda, when she uses a TLT to proc it, yes; on Luke in a T-65 when he's running away on greens, no.

Is an EPT on a Bomber bad game design, yes and no. On Nym, when he can get to PS 10 with Advanced Sensors, Trajectory, and unlimited bombs yes. And there is no corresponding no as no other Bombers have an EPT.

Is Bomblet Generator a bad game mechanic? On Nym or Miranda, yes. On a Punisher, who plays them? ...but on that ship, no.

Are Harpoon Missiles bad? On Nym or Miranda, yes due to it stacking with other powerful mechanics. On Kiraxeraxes or Gunboats, no.

Are TLTs bad game design? On Nym, Miranda and a Ghost, yes. It could be argued that on Y-Wings and Aggressors no based on tournament finishes, but I think eveyone would agree it is a poorly and OP-ly designed card that can just go away.

Is Trajectory Stimulator (haha) a bad game mechanic? On Nym, yes. On the BFF or Punisher, no.

Is Sabine's card design and cost a bad game design? Yes.

Is Reinforce a bad game mechanic? Yes. Good thing this is the one OP thing that Nym Miranda cannot implement....yet.

It is a bit complicated, but simple in component analysis. It is when these OP game design components can be stacked on a single ship that there are issues that break the game. Put simply, both Nym and Miranda can stack these. And then they run together. Therefore it is bad for the game's health.

I hate to be that guy, but there are several TIE Bomber pilots that have EPTs...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×