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drail14me

Can someone explain the relationship between Tournaments and List Juggler?

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Just wondering how List Juggler works in conjunction with tournaments? Just watching lately, it takes several days after a regional before List Juggler is populated with lists? Is List Juggler just a side program that people just politely post their lists to so we can track Meta? Or is List Juggler tied to the tournaments somehow? I think I read where players had to input their own lists into Juggler after a tournament. Wouldn't it be better to have it as a requirement to enter your list upon entry?

Just curious how that whole process works.

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Tournament data is exported to List Juggler. List Juggler does not connect to the tournament software itself. Only certain softwares can export to List Juggler in the right format (Cryodex being the main one) so it takes time for data to be uploaded because (a) it has to be done after the tournament and (b) the data might have be made up in other software or in the correct format if needed.

As for the actual list data, it depends on whether the TO entered that themselves. As you can imagine, entering all the lists from a 128 player event takes a while... also with List Juggler you can add lists straight from some of the squad builders so a lot of TO's leave players to enter their own squads outside of say, the top 16.

Edited by John Rainbow

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To answer your question more specifically, they are not directly connected or related to tournaments but the TOs try to use List Juggler. Not all are entered (maybe only half the tournaments I have attended are on it). List Juggler's web and hosting fees are paid for by the Scum & Villainy podcast and  to quote the "About" text on the page,

"This website was built to help enter lists from live X-Wing tournaments. It was inspired by Major Juggler's tireless efforts to gather statistics around the various lists that we play..."

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Data can be automatically entered to list juggler through cryodex with its integration or directly into list juggler. Early in the day Cryodex was often used by TOs to manage tournament organization and pairings, plus the list uploaded and win/loss data could be input to list juggler cor compilation. Then FFG had the bright idea to make their own software called TOME and all premier events and regionals had to use that instead. Needless to say Tome failed but any gaps in tournament data can be contributed to that.

There was a flow chart here showing the data flow for cryodex, and list juggler as well as other 3rd party apps such as Han Shopped First and X-wing Companion but I can't find it.

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Here you go! (Part of the X-Wing Technology Timeline thing I wrote)

List Juggler author here! A few other things:

  • I don't curate the data at all, too much work. The community is amazing to enter it all in though! It takes a village!
  • FFG doesn't provide any support (or even know it exists? -- I remember once when the head of organized play for X-Wing told me "What's that?" when I asked him if he would be entering a System Open into ListJuggler).
  • ListJuggler has a full RESTful API  which folks use to pragmatically enter and pull data from it
  • Tabletop.to and Cryodex are the two main ways to get data into it; Meta-Wing is the best example of data coming out of it

Cheers!

 

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7 hours ago, sozin said:

Here you go! (Part of the X-Wing Technology Timeline thing I wrote)

List Juggler author here! A few other things:

  • I don't curate the data at all, too much work. The community is amazing to enter it all in though! It takes a village!
  • FFG doesn't provide any support (or even know it exists? -- I remember once when the head of organized play for X-Wing told me "What's that?" when I asked him if he would be entering a System Open into ListJuggler).
  • ListJuggler has a full RESTful API  which folks use to pragmatically enter and pull data from it
  • Tabletop.to and Cryodex are the two main ways to get data into it; Meta-Wing is the best example of data coming out of it

Cheers!

 

Thanks for creating it! Learned a lot from browsing lists. 

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16 hours ago, drail14me said:

Wouldn't it be better to have it as a requirement to enter your list upon entry?

When I was running events, it was certainly a requirement that people provide a list ID of some kind that could be entered into List Juggler, yes.

But...someone shows up at the store day of the event, pays the store their entry fee, comes back to play in the event...and doesn't have a list ID.  What do you do - kick them out?  TO sucks it up and takes a snapshot of their list and enters it manually later on is what happens...

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I run events at my local FLGS with Tabletop.to and export the results to Juggler after the tournament. I then ask people to populate the Juggler, if they want to, over half generally does so.

People can submit their list directly to Tabletop.to during the event, and I'm presuming that it'd get exported to Juggler as part of the export process, but a) so far, I've just run smallish kit tournaments, and b) some people don't want their lists out there for whatever reason. Tabletop.to has many features that can be run "live" at the event, with people submitting their own results and seeing pairings, etc. I plan to start testing those soon, but not everyone has a smartphone and/or sufficient data on their plan to make that easy to do.

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19 hours ago, drjkel said:

I run events at my local FLGS with Tabletop.to and export the results to Juggler after the tournament. I then ask people to populate the Juggler, if they want to, over half generally does so.

People can submit their list directly to Tabletop.to during the event, and I'm presuming that it'd get exported to Juggler as part of the export process, but a) so far, I've just run smallish kit tournaments, and b) some people don't want their lists out there for whatever reason. Tabletop.to has many features that can be run "live" at the event, with people submitting their own results and seeing pairings, etc. I plan to start testing those soon, but not everyone has a smartphone and/or sufficient data on their plan to make that easy to do.

I can understand not wanting your list out for people to prepare for.

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18 minutes ago, drail14me said:

I can understand not wanting your list out for people to prepare for.

If they’re prepping for a single list by a single person, then they’re doing it wrong. More than likely people just don’t want people to steal their ideas, which is also dumb. Share the knowledge, don’t keep it secret. Unless it’s dengaroo,  dig a hole, cover it, and never let it out.

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I use crydex and create list id's for people manually and enter them in cryodex to upload to list juggler.

However I will be switching to tomel for the upcoming tournaments as it has a bunch of features that make running a larger event easier. Not sure how submitting the event to listjuggler will go it's allready a giant pain to do it with cryodex can't imagine doing it for even larger tournaments.

Maybe I will just leave it for people to enter their own data.

Edited by Icelom

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On 16/01/2018 at 10:54 AM, Tbetts94 said:

If they’re prepping for a single list by a single person, then they’re doing it wrong. More than likely people just don’t want people to steal their ideas, which is also dumb. Share the knowledge, don’t keep it secret. Unless it’s dengaroo,  dig a hole, cover it, and never let it out.

That could work for maybe at the most 1 major event. Then it would spread like a plague. Though in Xwing, ive never seen a list create a surprise at a major event and not turn out to be some kind of fringe afterward. Most list that performs on a regular basis are discovered (and talked about here) before they start winning bigger tournaments.

The game is not like MTG. Most powerful list are easy to figure out soonafter the xpac are released. Some are discovered before release. Even if there is a lot of material for the game, the interactions are limited by faction, ship types and upgrade slot available.

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2 hours ago, Thormind said:

That could work for maybe at the most 1 major event. Then it would spread like a plague. Though in Xwing, ive never seen a list create a surprise at a major event and not turn out to be some kind of fringe afterward. Most list that performs on a regular basis are discovered (and talked about here) before they start winning bigger tournaments.

The game is not like MTG. Most powerful list are easy to figure out soonafter the xpac are released. Some are discovered before release. Even if there is a lot of material for the game, the interactions are limited by faction, ship types and upgrade slot available.

My Dengaroo comment is more of a joke. Unless you’re referring to keeping it a secret, in which I agree. It’s dumb to keep it a secret.

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On 16.1.2018 at 6:21 PM, Icelom said:

Maybe I will just leave it for people to enter their own data.

That rarely works if ever.

There are also guys like me who help enter the lists if we can get something to use. Pictures, scans, whatever works.

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14 hours ago, Tbetts94 said:

My Dengaroo comment is more of a joke. Unless you’re referring to keeping it a secret, in which I agree. It’s dumb to keep it a secret.

the secret part :)

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52 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That rarely works if ever.

There are also guys like me who help enter the lists if we can get something to use. Pictures, scans, whatever works.

Im going to be a bit sarcastic here but its really just to tease.  Why would you contribute to enter lists in a data source that is, in your own words, "very flawed"?...  ;-)

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14 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Im going to be a bit sarcastic here but its really just to tease.  Why would you contribute to enter lists in a data source that is, in your own words, "very flawed"?...  ;-)

Two reasons:

1. I can do my own thing which is less flawed

2. I did say, explicitly, that Listjuggler is often flawed because so many entries are missing. Obviously I then have an interest to make it less flawed, don‘t you think?

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