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Marinealver

New Maneuvers for Future Huge Ship

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So I posted this in the main forums before but now as we have our own forum dedicated to epic I decided to repost it here (with some edits)

So back on X-wing Epic and the talk of huge ships one might think we are coming to the beginning of the end of new releases specifically for Epic, and that is the Huge Ships. Once Scum gets their corvette class huge ship all the factions will be in equilibrium in number of huge ships and on the dial will be the same 8 maneuvers. Straight 1-4 and left and right banks for speed 1 and speed 2. The only thing to separate the movement pattern was the energy but it was a common thing. High speeds and banks come with less energy than low speed and straights. So with 6 ships (2 fore each faction) there is no need for any further huge ships, or is there? Lets say the factions start to get their 3rd or even 4th huge ship, something will have to be done about the dials as all huge ships having the exact same maneuvers would be stagnation. Much like standard X-wing was facing in Wave 5 what is left how do you vary the rather same movements of ships. Soon ships will literally be copying others movement patterns. X-wing took a look at reversal maneuvers and started there first with the S-loop and then with the T-roll. But huge ships don't have maneuvers or do they? Here are a couple of ideas for new maneuvers for huge ships.

Stop (white square)

Well first lets start with the very first new maneuver which was introduced in Wave 3 and that is the stop. Yup put a stop on the huge ship (they can do it in armada). Now naturally huge ships with long range weapons would want to stay still as their range 3 to 5 puts them at a good range where they can snipe at the smaller ships or ships without any range 4-5 weapons. So would this have a potential of being broken? Maybe not, The smaller fighters will still be able to close the gap to range 2 and have free unhindered range there and we all know the reinforce token and recover actions won't save it. Now for the stop there should be some modest energy gain. Something similar to a 1 bank or a 2 straight. After all the natural momentum of 1 straight should be the highest energy gain.  But maybe a stop should be less energy because after all you are using the engines to stay put, and with that you don't have the energy to do much thrust so setting up stop to an energy gain of only 1 or 2 could be the use.

Reverse (Reverse White block with T, same as straight reverse for the quadjumper)

So right now only scum has the helos (though I think the Imperials might have one in the background of one of the pilot cards from G4H). But why not large ship also have reverse. Much like Scum with having a revers it will have no stop. Also it just to keep the feeling of inertia a ship with reverse would not have a 4 straight since it has optimized engine placement for more static movement. Heck it would be interesting to see a huge ship with no 4 straight no 2 banks but 1 bank double banks 1-3 straight stop and 1 reverse. And I dare say it will still feel like a huge lumbering ship moving through space. Naturally for energy gain you want to 1 straight to be the most energy gain. 

Obliques/Lateral Thrusters (slanted arrow) 

So many replies have been talking about some sort of side movement such as an oblique. Now while the majority consensus is that momentum should remain in the forward direction, thus making an argument against all stop and revers movements a straight up side to side movement will likely receive the same criticism. Since moving 1 straight to the side is actually a big turn in relation to huge ship movement (might even be considered larger than a double bank). Looking at a different approach to this would be better. So why not just use the width of the maneuver tool to keep the movement small. SO the idea is to line up the tool with the blue line as if you were doing a straight, but instead of a straight put it on the other side as if it were a turn depending on the speed. Thing is for the movement is somewhat dependent on the size of the ship base as flotilla sized ships have smaller bases than corvette sized ships. For a Corvette sized ship the 1 Oblique would be a perfectly lateral movement where for flotilla sized the 1 oblique would have a small amount of forward movement. Unlike the double bank (which I cannot see any reason to go speed 2) obliques can go speed 2 but I can see them at a fairly slow energy gain. The 1 speed being at a lower energy gain than the 2 speed since the 2 speed is closer to a 1 straight. Now for turns obviously you want to restrict the movement so taking away 2 banks is likely the best course of action, and much like you won't put stop and revers maneuver on the same ship you wont put obliques and double banks on the same ship.

Double Bank (2 bank arrows)

The maneuver tool is rather limited and restricted by design. The banks change the declination only 30 degrees in contrast of a standard bank which is 45 degrees. Where a small or large ship can bank twice to do a 90 degree turn a huge ship has to bank three times. So a new maneuver a double bank is something that could be added in. The double bank is simple, lets say a speed 1 double bank is revealed, you do one bank, then you immediately do another bank. You might have to make some rules like the first bank maneuver doesn't count for overlapping but the 2nd one does. Also you want to keep it down to a speed 1 and the energy gain low even 0 maybe since it literally is all power to engines. You could also pair it with dials that have obliques to get a very slow lumbering ship. You might be able to play around with the speed such as a 2-1 (2 bank followed by a 1 bank) to get a since of momentum as massive ship engines burned on one side to get the ship to turn. The huge ship makes a 60 degree turn which is still less than a hard turn of a small/large ship of 90 degrees, and the ship's forward movement is equal to that of a speed 2 straight, which is a 1 straight for small based ships. As for the energy gain it should be less than or equal to the energy gain for a 4 straight. 0 is a perfectly fine energy gain for such a maneuver.

So talking about energy gain from highest to lowest you have for the standard 8 speed and maneuvers this model.

  1. 1 straight
  2. 2 straight
  3. 1 banks
  4. 2 banks
  5. 3 straight
  6. 4 straight

So putting in the new maneuvers this is how I would rate the speed and maneuvers from highest energy gain to lowest.

  1. 1 straight
  2. 2 straight
  3. 1 banks
  4. 2 obliques
  5. 0 stop (do not include with 4 straight)
  6. 2 banks
  7. 3 straight
  8. 1 obliques (less energy gain than 2 oblique because this has more lateral movement than forward movement)
  9. 1 reverse (do not include with 3 or 4 straight)
  10. 1-2 double bank (do not include with 2 bank)
  11. 4 straight
  12. 1-1 double bank (0 energy gain)
  13. 2-1 double bank (this one should have a single blue square on the dial to give the ship 1 ion token)

So with these new maneuvers one it is obvious that when constructing a new dial some maneuvers should cancel each others (such as taking a stop removes the 4 straight from the dial) but there should be a set of core maneuvers that all huge ships should have (such as 2 straight and 1 banks).  So first next thing I will try to make some sort of dial set up such as a select one to make a new dial with these new maneuvers (i.e. Chose One: { 4 straight, 0 Stop, 1 Reverse})

New Energy Mechanic Blue Hexagonal Pip Ion Pip When revealing a maneuver that has this icon gain 1 ion token for each Ion pip.

So talk about energy drain. Of course I think Ion rules could use a little errata on huge ships as I find it ridiculous that a ship with 4 ion tokens can just go at speed 4 with no additional penalty than going speed 1.  Maybe add a step to check energy gain, "remove energy for each ion token, if ion tokens still remain huge ship does a straight 1 and discard any renaming ion tokens" sort of thing.

So how do you think this will open up the huge ship dial and want flotilla to corvette sized ships (or even larger) do you think will have any of these new maneuvers? Place ideas below.

Edited by Marinealver

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In my worthless opinion id say maybe the stop is worth looking at but otherwise that just adds unnecessary complexity. Plus the reverse thing would be super unthematic if they can change direction faster than snub fighters.

 

And even if stop is worth looking At, due to tibanna gas being a thing it would make any huge that came before it obsolete because superlasers with a stop would be pretty broken vs others epics

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2 hours ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

In my worthless opinion id say maybe the stop is worth looking at but otherwise that just adds unnecessary complexity. Plus the reverse thing would be super unthematic if they can change direction faster than snub fighters.

 

And even if stop is worth looking At, due to tibanna gas being a thing it would make any huge that came before it obsolete because superlasers with a stop would be pretty broken vs others epics

Both stop and revers got a whole lot of flak in the main forum too, the whole idea is to tailor the dial and the energy gain to keep a sense of momentum. The straight 1 and 2 will generate you the most energy. Stop will be like a straight 3 or straight 4 (keep in mind these maneuvers will be removed to keep a sense of momentum low). As for reverse it will have even less or even no energy gain of course we are talking about a slow dial (no speed 3 or 4, no 2 banks). Also we could use this more like a support ship with only energy and no hardpoints.

The whole idea is that if there are going to be more than 6 huge ships the dials will have to be opened up in a way other than the same 8 maneuvers. The idea is simple, using nothing more than the huge ship movement template come up with new maneuvers for other huge ships. 

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On 1/11/2018 at 11:10 AM, Marinealver said:

Both stop and revers got a whole lot of flak in the main forum too, the whole idea is to tailor the dial and the energy gain to keep a sense of momentum. The straight 1 and 2 will generate you the most energy. Stop will be like a straight 3 or straight 4 (keep in mind these maneuvers will be removed to keep a sense of momentum low). As for reverse it will have even less or even no energy gain of course we are talking about a slow dial (no speed 3 or 4, no 2 banks). Also we could use this more like a support ship with only energy and no hardpoints.

The whole idea is that if there are going to be more than 6 huge ships the dials will have to be opened up in a way other than the same 8 maneuvers. The idea is simple, using nothing more than the huge ship movement template come up with new maneuvers for other huge ships. 

I like it.  The stop and the lateral, or drift, is perfect. Your not going to have ships, that are slow, slamming faster than interceptors (looking at you Kwing) and with the right energy gained, it won’t be ideal maneuver most of the time. 

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Well for most people to accept stop it has to be like the 4 on the GR-75 and produce no energy.

I have edited the post to include a new blue ion pip to add ion tokens for certain maneuvers such as the double bank. Idea is that this maneuver adds ion tokens, but you also have to errata ion tokens in huge ship rule a little, have it also take away energy from the ship card instead of just reduce the number of energy gained on the maneuver. I also want to add in if you have any remaining ion tokens after removing energy from the ship card treat the maneuver as a 1 straight gain no energy and discard all remaining ion tokens. I always found it funny after the 4th ion token a ship can just go speed 4 with out any difference than a speed .

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I’ve been thinking about the energy mechanics for huge ships.  I’m thinking the amount of energy gained could be based on the change in speed/direction.  If you select the same maneuver as the previous round, you gain maximum energy. For each unit of change in speed and each unit of change in direction you reduce the amount of energy gained. For example, say the max amount of energy you can gain is 4.  If you reveal a 1 bank after having executed a speed 3 straight on the previous turn you would only gain 1 energy (4 minus 2 for the drop in speed from 3 to 1 minus another 1 for changing from straight to bank). Then on the next turn if you reveal a 1 bank again you would gain all 4 energy since you didn’t change your speed or heading (on the dial at least, I’m aware of the physics of momentum but I’m trying to balance adding some realism with simplicity). With this system a zero stop maneuver would work just fine.

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1 hour ago, Bullox said:

I’ve been thinking about the energy mechanics for huge ships.  I’m thinking the amount of energy gained could be based on the change in speed/direction.  If you select the same maneuver as the previous round, you gain maximum energy. For each unit of change in speed and each unit of change in direction you reduce the amount of energy gained. For example, say the max amount of energy you can gain is 4.  If you reveal a 1 bank after having executed a speed 3 straight on the previous turn you would only gain 1 energy (4 minus 2 for the drop in speed from 3 to 1 minus another 1 for changing from straight to bank). Then on the next turn if you reveal a 1 bank again you would gain all 4 energy since you didn’t change your speed or heading (on the dial at least, I’m aware of the physics of momentum but I’m trying to balance adding some realism with simplicity). With this system a zero stop maneuver would work just fine.

It would let you dial in 0 stop then 0 stop for full energy with sniper loads. That's exactly the kind of broken that people point out with stops.

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1 hour ago, Bullox said:

I’ve been thinking about the energy mechanics for huge ships.  I’m thinking the amount of energy gained could be based on the change in speed/direction.  If you select the same maneuver as the previous round, you gain maximum energy. For each unit of change in speed and each unit of change in direction you reduce the amount of energy gained. For example, say the max amount of energy you can gain is 4.  If you reveal a 1 bank after having executed a speed 3 straight on the previous turn you would only gain 1 energy (4 minus 2 for the drop in speed from 3 to 1 minus another 1 for changing from straight to bank). Then on the next turn if you reveal a 1 bank again you would gain all 4 energy since you didn’t change your speed or heading (on the dial at least, I’m aware of the physics of momentum but I’m trying to balance adding some realism with simplicity). With this system a zero stop maneuver would work just fine.

Keep in mind everything in X-wing is basically abstraction. Here is a video from GDC about helth systems in video games that I think can be applied to all games especially board games. He breaks it down that game mechanics have 3 levels of aproximation to reality or what one would logicaly say that will actually happen.

  1. Abstraction
  2. Simplification
  3. Simulation

 

X-wing mechanics tend to have more simplification and abstraction where as Armada might as well be abstraction. As for momentum best thing to do is to have 1 and 2 straights generate the most energy just like how in X-wing all ships have a 2 green straight. That simple featuer is enough to abstract the momentum of huge ships in space. Use energy mechanics to simplify ship movement and you got huge ships in X-wing.

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