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Some doubts on Lightsaber Mods

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

To quote: 

That is the RAW. A "training Emitter" is a lightsaber crystal. The "flavor text" says that the training emitter itself  is a Kathracite or Danite crystal.  Kathracite is a lightsaber crystal; one only used in Training sabers. Ergo, Kathracite is a Training emitter. The key point the flavor text is making is that Kathracite and Danite crystals are only used in training sabers as the training emitter because they are very, very weak crystals. As such, they don't get breach or Sunder. They are Training emitters. 

Also, from Wookieepedia:

Also, Endless Vigil does have a lightsaber attachment that allows a normal lightsaber crystal to have a "stun setting": the Damping Emitter", which, guess what, lowers the power the energy cell supplies to the blade, 

First off, the wookieepedia quote say USUALLY reserved for training lightsabers, usually means NOT ALL THE TIME as in sometimes they are used in regular lightsabers... how can you not understand that plain and simple English without having someone explain it to you?

 

training lightsabers are low-powered, non-lethal variants of standard lightsabers. Equipped with an ultra-low-output power generator and either a Kathracite or Danite crystal, 

you have to lower the power "and" (scare quotes, so you don't misunderstand) use a katharcite or danite crystal to get a training lightsaber 

I'm not claiming that you build up an artifice around the katharcite or danite crystal, I'm claiming (because it's RAW) that part of installing it is a hand wave zero credit "permanent" (scare quotes) mod to a power generator (which you don't have a clue what it is, and it's not a battery, I'll explain below) to limit the power.

the damping emitter does the same thing but let's you switch it on off with a maneuver instead of having to take apart the saber to undo the "permanent" change.

Riddle me this... why would the game designers put in two methods to on the fly switch between stun and non stun damage 1) the damping emitter 2) putting a katharcite crystal in a cyclic crystal array? Also the damping emitter limits power, so why would they call a katharcite crystal a "training emmitter" if all that is involved is swapping the crystal? The word pattern (a.k.a. language) suggests that 1) it limits power and 2) you have to make that "permanent" mod when you INSTALL crystal in the saber.

The benefit of the damping emitter is you can switch it between stun/lethal with a maneuver 

I don't know how you missed this very simple logic but I will try to explain it to you

The damping emitter explicitly states that ANY lightsaber crystal can produce a blade that deals stun instead of lethal damage and loses breach if you dramatically lower the power

The training lightsaber is explicitly low power (explicitly ultra low power at that) and it happens to use a katharcite or danite crystal but regardless of what type of kyber crystal it used it would deal stun damage and not have breach because of its ultra low power (see the previous sentence/paragraph for proof). 

Ok so we've conclusively established that someone who wanted to make a training lightsaber could use any type of lightsaber crystal if they used ultra low power.  So why would they typically use a katharcite or danite crystal to make a training saber? Well kathracite and danite are the two MOST COMMON types adegan crystals, they're weaker too but that doesn't matter for a training saber, and since the stronger/more damaging crystals are rarer, (generalized) you'd want to save them for lightsaber that you want to do real (not stun) damage with.

So what does ffg raw say about the stats of kathracite or danite crystal that's installed in a full powered lightsaber? Absolutely nothing, Donovan's homebrew stats are a non contradictory extension of RAW, just like your kathracite crystal deal stun damage is a non contradictory extension of ffg RAW.  However previous star wars rpgs have established that kathracite and danite do lethal damage just less of it than the stronger crystals, which makes donovan's non contradictory extension of ffg RAW more consistent with legends lore than yours is.

Ok so what is a generator? It's not a battery, it's a device for converting one type of energy into another, for example the generators that you buy at a hardware store convert chemical energy (e.g. gasoline or liquid natural gas) into electricity.  But a closer analogy are electric motor/generators like the ones used in electric or hybrid electric vehicles.  A motor run in reverse is a generator, it converts kinetic energy (e.g. the rotation of the wheels of a moving car, or a turbine spun by combustion or by water flowing through a dam) into electricity.  We don't know what kinds (note the plural) of energy a lightsaber works on, there's heat, electric, and electro magnetic in the mix but we don't know what else, and we don't know what form of energy is stored in a power cell, maybe it's electricity maybe it's something else (e.g. a fuel cell, which is chemical) but what we do know is that the generator converts whatever form of energy is stored in the power cell into a type of energy the lightsaber needs and back again.  You might want too Google technical terms in the future before making up your own incorrect definitions.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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31 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

First off, the wookieepedia quote say USUALLY reserved for training lightsabers, usually means NOT ALL THE TIME as in sometimes they are used in regular lightsabers... how can you not understand that plain and simple English without having someone explain it to you?

 

training lightsabers are low-powered, non-lethal variants of standard lightsabers. Equipped with an ultra-low-output power generator and either a Kathracite or Danite crystal, 

you have to lower the power "and" (scare quotes, so you don't misunderstand) use a katharcite or danite crystal to get a training lightsaber 

I'm not claiming that you build up an artifice around the katharcite or danite crystal, I'm claiming (because it's RAW) that part of installing it is a hand wave zero credit "permanent" (scare quotes) mod to a power generator (which you don't have a clue what it is, and it's not a battery, I'll explain below) to limit the power.

the damping emitter does the same thing but let's you switch it on off with a maneuver instead of having to take apart the saber to undo the "permanent" change.

Riddle me this... why would the game designers put in two methods to on the fly switch between stun and non stun damage 1) the damping emitter 2) putting a katharcite crystal in a cyclic crystal array? Also the damping emitter limits power, so why would they call a katharcite crystal a "training emmitter" if all that is involved is swapping the crystal? The word pattern (a.k.a. language) suggests that 1) it limits power and 2) you have to make that "permanent" mod when you INSTALL crystal in the saber.

The benefit of the damping emitter is you can switch it between stun/lethal with a maneuver 

I don't know how you missed this very simple logic but I will try to explain it to you

The damping emitter explicitly states that ANY lightsaber crystal can produce a blade that deals stun instead of lethal damage and loses breach if you dramatically lower the power

The training lightsaber is explicitly low power (explicitly ultra low power at that) and it happens to use a katharcite or danite crystal but regardless of what type of kyber crystal it used it would deal stun damage and not have breach because of its ultra low power (see the previous sentence/paragraph for proof). 

Ok so we've conclusively established that someone who wanted to make a training lightsaber could use any type of lightsaber crystal if they used ultra low power.  So why would they typically use a katharcite or danite crystal to make a training saber? Well kathracite and danite are the two MOST COMMON types adegan crystals, they're weaker too but that doesn't matter for a training saber, and since the stronger/more damaging crystals are rarer, (generalized) you'd want to save them for lightsaber that you want to do real (not stun) damage with.

So what does ffg raw say about the stats of kathracite or danite crystal that's installed in a full powered lightsaber? Absolutely nothing, Donovan's homebrew stats are a non contradictory extension of RAW, just like your kathracite crystal deal stun damage is a non contradictory extension of ffg RAW.  However previous star wars rpgs have established that kathracite and danite do lethal damage just less of it than the stronger crystals, which makes donovan's non contradictory extension of ffg RAW more consistent with legends lore than yours is.

Ok so what is a generator? It's not a battery, it's a device for converting one type of energy into another, for example the generators that you buy at a hardware store convert chemical energy (e.g. gasoline or liquid natural gas) into electricity.  But a closer analogy are electric motor/generators like the ones used in electric or hybrid electric vehicles.  A motor run in reverse is a generator, it converts kinetic energy (e.g. the rotation of the wheels of a moving car, or a turbine spun by combustion or by water flowing through a dam) into electricity.  We don't know what kinds (note the plural) of energy a lightsaber works on, there's heat, electric, and electro magnetic in the mix but we don't know what else, and we don't know what form of energy is stored in a power cell, maybe it's electricity maybe it's something else (e.g. a fuel cell, which is chemical) but what we do know is that the generator converts whatever form of energy is stored in the power cell into a type of energy the lightsaber needs and back again.  You might want too Google technical terms in the future before making up your own incorrect definitions.

And my counter to that belief is that the game stats for the Training Saber don’t back up your claim. The actual game stats for the training lightsaber state that it is a standard lightsaber Hilt with a training emitter as its lightsaber crystal. In other words, you don’t swap out the power cell for a more powerful one along with the crystal in order to have a full power blade. You simply swap out the crystal. Kathracite  (or Danite) is the crystal used as training emitters. And RAW says you only change out the crystal, not the power source. By RAW, the only difference, rules wise, between a fully functioning lightsaber and a training lightsaber is the crystal. If you swap out the training emitter for an Ilum crystal, for example, you get a fully functioning lightsaber that does the Ilum crystal’s full damage and has all of its other properties. The game states that kathracite is used as a training emitter. Thus, if you swap out an Ilum crystal for a kathracite crystal you get the stats for a training lightsaber. The rules do not require the changing of the power cell as well. They only require the changing of the crystal

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1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And my counter to that belief is that the game stats for the Training Saber don’t back up your claim. The actual game stats for the training lightsaber state that it is a standard lightsaber Hilt with a training emitter as its lightsaber crystal. In other words, you don’t swap out the power cell for a more powerful one along with the crystal in order to have a full power blade. You simply swap out the crystal. Kathracite  (or Danite) is the crystal used as training emitters. And RAW says you only change out the crystal, not the power source. By RAW, the only difference, rules wise, between a fully functioning lightsaber and a training lightsaber is the crystal. If you swap out the training emitter for an Ilum crystal, for example, you get a fully functioning lightsaber that does the Ilum crystal’s full damage and has all of its other properties. The game states that kathracite is used as a training emitter. Thus, if you swap out an Ilum crystal for a kathracite crystal you get the stats for a training lightsaber. The rules do not require the changing of the power cell as well. They only require the changing of the crystal

B.S. Mike. You're deliberately ignorant and narrow minded/biased but you're not stupid, you are or should be better than this.  Use you brain to process ALL of the factual information in front of you rather than cherry picking only the PARTS OF SENTENCES that support the first idea that popped into you head months to tears ago.

A training saber is explicitly low power, you can't logically ignore that bit of "fluff text" while taking the other half of the same sentence which is I think the only place that lists kathracite and danite.

The damping emitter proves beyond doubt that any type of crystal when used with severely limited power does stun damage without breach just like the explicitly low power training saber.  Any crystal in a LOW POWER training saber would deal stun without breach because that's the raw effect of low power on a lightsaber, and no that's not just my "belief" it's straight out RAW. 

I never said anything about swapping out a power cell, get your head out of where the sun doesn't shine and process the words i actually wrote instead of incorrectly auto completing and ignoring what I actually wrote. I talked about installing a training emitter which is not just a crystal because they called it an EMITTER by raw and the other emitter that does mostly the same thing also explicitly does it by limiting the power.  Installing the emitter involves a modification to (not swapping of) the power generator (which is not a power cell it's a "power converter", using the term loosely) using the extra EMITTER parts (that make it an emitter instead of just a crystal) and optionally swapping out the crystal for a katharcite or danite crystal so you can use the presumably stronger crystal somewhere else, or installing the katharcite/danite crystal because you don't have a different type of crystal.

Wookieepedia and previous editions of the game say kathracite and danite can be installed in regular lightsabers (that do lethal damage).

Swapping a crystal is not one for one equivalent with installing an emitter because if it was they would have named it a crystal instead of naming it an emitter.  That's basic English.  Come on you can do this, you can meaningfully and logically process information, it's not that hard, especially when someone lays it out plainly for you.

 

 

 

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Frankly, the whole thing with training emitters would be easier if Dave Filoni hadn't made the bone-headed decision to say that synthetic kyber crystals weren't a thing in the new canon.

Ignoring that ill-advised statement of his makes the whole affair a great deal simpler.

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9 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Frankly, the whole thing with training emitters would be easier if Dave Filoni hadn't made the bone-headed decision to say that synthetic kyber crystals weren't a thing in the new canon.

Ignoring that ill-advised statement of his makes the whole affair a great deal simpler.

I don't think it was Dave Filoni's sole decision there. George Lucas, if I remember correctly, was the one who came up with most of the lore of lightsaber crystals (might want to fact check me here, I could very well be wrong). And Catalyst was the book that really firmly established, in-universe, why synthetic crystals don't work. Kyber crystals are "living" in the Force. You can't simply create life in Star Wars, which is why synthetic crystals don't work in the established lore. (Unless you're Plagueis or Sidious, I suppose.)

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19 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

B.S. Mike. You're deliberately ignorant and narrow minded/biased but you're not stupid, you are or should be better than this.  Use you brain to process ALL of the factual information in front of you rather than cherry picking only the PARTS OF SENTENCES that support the first idea that popped into you head months to tears ago.

A training saber is explicitly low power, you can't logically ignore that bit of "fluff text" while taking the other half of the same sentence which is I think the only place that lists kathracite and danite.

The damping emitter proves beyond doubt that any type of crystal when used with severely limited power does stun damage without breach just like the explicitly low power training saber.  Any crystal in a LOW POWER training saber would deal stun without breach because that's the raw effect of low power on a lightsaber, and no that's not just my "belief" it's straight out RAW. 

I never said anything about swapping out a power cell, get your head out of where the sun doesn't shine and process the words i actually wrote instead of incorrectly auto completing and ignoring what I actually wrote. I talked about installing a training emitter which is not just a crystal because they called it an EMITTER by raw and the other emitter that does mostly the same thing also explicitly does it by limiting the power.  Installing the emitter involves a modification to (not swapping of) the power generator (which is not a power cell it's a "power converter", using the term loosely) using the extra EMITTER parts (that make it an emitter instead of just a crystal) and optionally swapping out the crystal for a katharcite or danite crystal so you can use the presumably stronger crystal somewhere else, or installing the katharcite/danite crystal because you don't have a different type of crystal.

Wookieepedia and previous editions of the game say kathracite and danite can be installed in regular lightsabers (that do lethal damage).

Swapping a crystal is not one for one equivalent with installing an emitter because if it was they would have named it a crystal instead of naming it an emitter.  That's basic English.  Come on you can do this, you can meaningfully and logically process information, it's not that hard, especially when someone lays it out plainly for you.

 

 

 

Wrong Keith. The game rules specifically state that a Training lightsaber is simply a Standard lightsaber hilt with a Training Emitter, and the training emitter is a "Lightdsaber crystal" by RAW, A Training emitter is not a crystal and power cell combination. It is a lightsaber crystal. And, Both Kathracite and Danite are explicitly said to be used as training emitters in training sabers. Therefore,  a Kathracite or Danite crystal is the training emitter. Even in the older versions of the RPG, including SAGA, Kathracite and Danite were used only in training lightsabers. 

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5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Wrong Keith. The game rules specifically state that a Training lightsaber is simply a Standard lightsaber hilt with a Training Emitter, and the training emitter is a "Lightdsaber crystal" by RAW, A Training emitter is not a crystal and power cell combination. It is a lightsaber crystal. And, Both Kathracite and Danite are explicitly said to be used as training emitters in training sabers. Therefore,  a Kathracite or Danite crystal is the training emitter. Even in the older versions of the RPG, including SAGA, Kathracite and Danite were used only in training lightsabers. 

The sentence which list kathracite and danite says it is a low power saber using an ultra low power generator.  If you throw out that sentence as fluff text you throw out kathracite and danite.  You can't have it both ways.

No one here but you is claiming it's a combination of a power cell and crystal, and you're making that ridiculous claim as a strawman argument.  It contains parts to modify (not replace) the generator (which is not a power cell).  The other raw emitter also contains parts to Modify not replace the generator to use low power and can explicitly cause any crystal to do stun damage and lose breach.

It's named an emitter because it's more than a crystal, and categorized as a crystal so you can't put it and a crystal in the same saber.

Btw you're parsing "ultra low power generator" wrong "ultra low power" is a phrase that describes how much energy/power is consumed by the generator.  It doesn't say it is a "power generator" it's a generator that converts energy from one form into another, it might be an EMF (electro magnetic field) generator.  But it's absolutely ludicrous butchering of the English language to call the generator a power cell.

And I'm calling your BS bluff on how previous editions handled danite and kathracite

Google for adegan crystals and jedi counseling on a wayback machine webpage you should find a table that lists the damage modifier (away from 2d8) of a kathracite crystal as -3, danite as -2, something else as -1, mephite as +0, and pontite as + 1.

D6 had different damage dice and or pips for the LETHAL damage of the various adegan crystals but I forget what they are.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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19 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

The sentence which list kathracite and danite says it is a low power saber using an ultra low power generator.  If you throw out that sentence as fluff text you throw out kathracite and danite.  You can't have it both ways.

No one here but you is claiming it's a combination of a power cell and crystal, and you're making that ridiculous claim as a strawman argument.  It contains parts to modify (not replace) the generator (which is not a power cell).  The other raw emitter also contains parts to Modify not replace the generator to use low power and can explicitly cause any crystal to do stun damage and lose breach.

It's named an emitter because it's more than a crystal, and categorized as a crystal so you can't put it and a crystal in the same saber.

Btw you're parsing "ultra low power generator" wrong "ultra low power" is a phrase that describes how much energy/power is consumed by the generator.  It doesn't say it is a "power generator" it's a generator that converts energy from one form into another, it might be an EMF (electro magnetic field) generator.  But it's absolutely ludicrous butchering of the English language to call the generator a power cell.

And I'm calling your BS bluff on how previous editions handled danite and kathracite

Google for adegan crystals and jedi counseling on a wayback machine webpage you should find a table that lists the damage modifier (away from 2d8) of a kathracite crystal as -3, danite as -2, something else as -1, mephite as +0, and pontite as + 1.

D6 had different damage dice and or pips for the LETHAL damage of the various adegan crystals but I forget what they are.

The game stats themselves say that the Training lightsaber is a standard basic lightsaber hilt, with an unmodified  training emitter for its kyber crystal, nothing more, nothing less. to quote:

Quote

This lightsaber is a basic lightsaber hilt containing an unmodified training lightsaber emitter (see page 200). This crystal occupies two of the weapon's hardpoints.

To quote page 200 Training Emitter:
 

Quote

In the days of the Republic, the Jeid allowed their younglings to train with "training sabers," non-lethal versions of their famous energy blades. A training lightsaber is almost the same as a standard lightsaber, however, the crystal is replaced with a training emitter. The training emitter creates a blade that is completely non-lethal, and at most can generate a stun shock. A training emitter is a lightsaber crystal

Models include: none.

Base modifiers: Installing this crystal changes a lightsaber's damage to 6 and its critical rating to -, and the lightsaber gains the Stun Damage quality. If the crystal is ever removed, the lightsaber loses this quality and reverts back to its previous base damage and critical rating. 

That is the game stats for the training lightsaber. No other attachments. no other modifications. It's a basic lightsaber hilt with a training emitter. A training emitter is a lightsaber crystal. It isn't a crystal and power cell. It's a lightsaber crystal. The Kathracite crystal is a lightsaber crystal specifically used in training lightsabers. Ergo, the Kathracite crystal is a training emitter.

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3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That is the game stats for the training lightsaber. No other attachments. no other modifications.

No! No! No! This is almost (but not quite) as infuriating as freaking potions. It LITERALLY says they are "common lightsabers WITH INTERNAL MODIFICATIONS" in the freaking book. Do they have game mechanic style modifications? No. Are they modified lightsabers within the context of the Star Wars universe? YES!!!!!! It's right, freaking there in the lore section! In the lore section, because its part of the lore. Not in the game mechanics section, because the game mechanics don't apply. Lore, yes. Mechanics, no. BUT LORE IS FREAKING YES. And again, JUST after that - "training lightsabers can be turned into full-powered lightsabers simply by changing out the power generator AND -" <- see the freaking 'and', the sentence modifier, "replacing the crystal." 

That's why it takes two ******ed hard points, you obnoxious nincompoop, IT'S GOT TWO ******ed COMPONENTS. 

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17 hours ago, Dunefarble said:

No! No! No! This is almost (but not quite) as infuriating as freaking potions. It LITERALLY says they are "common lightsabers WITH INTERNAL MODIFICATIONS" in the freaking book. Do they have game mechanic style modifications? No. Are they modified lightsabers within the context of the Star Wars universe? YES!!!!!! It's right, freaking there in the lore section! In the lore section, because its part of the lore. Not in the game mechanics section, because the game mechanics don't apply. Lore, yes. Mechanics, no. BUT LORE IS FREAKING YES. And again, JUST after that - "training lightsabers can be turned into full-powered lightsabers simply by changing out the power generator AND -" <- see the freaking 'and', the sentence modifier, "replacing the crystal." 

That's why it takes two ******ed hard points, you obnoxious nincompoop, IT'S GOT TWO ******ed COMPONENTS. 

Most of the lightsaber crystals require two hard points. In fact, all of the lightsaber crystals in the F&D Core rules require them.  There's two crystals in Endless Vigil which only require 1 HP, once crystal in Disciples of Harmony which requires 3 HP, and one crystal in Keeping the Peace (the Sorian Crystal) which requires 4 hard points. So, no, it's not an issue of other components. It is the crystal itself which takes up that much space in the lightsaber. Thus all you need to do, by RAW, to turn a normal lightsaber into a training saber, and vice versa, is replace the crystal

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2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Thus all you need to do, by RAW, to turn a normal lightsaber into a training saber, and vice versa, is replace the crystal.

From a rules perspective, sure. The mechanics combine the two, which is why its called a 'training emitter' and not a 'training crystal'. But you CANNOT claim, from a lore perspective, that the crystal alone is enough to make something a training saber. Its just not accurate by the information presented in the books. If you want to house rule it, sure, but the raw flat out does not support your fluff. 

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In case it wasn't clear that he was quoting official ffg content

 

As they are simply common lightsabers with internal modifications, training sabers can be turned into full-powered lightsabers simply by changing out the power generator and replacing the crystal with a more formidable one.

Pg 178 F&D

 

Note that full-powered "equates to" (scare quotes) /baselines at basic lightsaber/unmodified ilum crystal, this leaves room for a weaker than baseline lightsaber using the not low output power generator and a katharcite or danite crystal ( @Donovan Morningfire's stats for a synthetic focusing lens looks pretty close to how I would stat a normal lightsaber with a katharcite crystal and his stats for a kathracite crystal are pretty close to how I would stat a normal lightsaber with a danite crystal... those stats are *admitted* by the above official text because they are weaker than baseline lightsaber stats)

Edited by EliasWindrider

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38 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

From a rules perspective, sure. The mechanics combine the two, which is why its called a 'training emitter' and not a 'training crystal'. But you CANNOT claim, from a lore perspective, that the crystal alone is enough to make something a training saber. Its just not accurate by the information presented in the books. If you want to house rule it, sure, but the raw flat out does not support your fluff. 

Yes, I can. The Kathracite crystal is a very weak crystal, one in the lore only used for training sabers. Secondly, we already have a much more powerful crystal which is also non-lethal in the Kimber Stone, which, other than being non-lethal (including the lack of the Sunder and Breach qualities), is on par with two of the deadliest lightsaber crystals in the book (Mephite and the Krayt Dragon Pearl) in terms of damage, upgrades, and other qualities. The training emitter has the same base damage as the Ilum crystal, but is stun only and lacks Sunder and Breach. That’s it. This fits with Kathracite being the weakest crystal type, only used for training sabers, thus lacking Sunder and Breach. Third, I can take a basic lightsaber hilt, install a Cyclic Crystal Array, and then install into that array a Kathracite crystal/training emitter and a Mephite crystal, or even a larger Sorian or Solari crystal, (for example), all taking up just the two original Hard Points, taken up by a typical lightsaber crystal, and have a weapon I can switch from training mode to full power in an instant with the turn of a dial. So, mechanically, and narratively, all it takes to turn a basic lightsaber into a training lightsaber is swapping out one crystal for another. 

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48 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

This fits with Kathracite being the weakest crystal type, only used for training sabers

But it does NOT fit with other information presented in the books. Palpatine as a stalwart Jedi fits with him being strong in the Force.... if you ignore a few other bits of key information. The way the training emitter is portrayed within the primary source is counter to your interpretation. Ignoring that doesn't change it. 

Not sure what the kimber stone has to do with the argument. I'm not denying the idea that kathracite is inherently weaker then other stones. I'm denying that kathracite ALONE is what makes a saber a training saber.

48 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

So, mechanically, and narratively, all it takes to turn a basic lightsaber into a training lightsaber is swapping out one crystal for another.

To me, it's clear that the two components work together and must go together in order to function. Therefore, in order to have a training emitter in a cyclical array, they are BOTH installed, and a standard generator would connect to the alternate crystals. I'll admit, its vague and open to interpretation, especially if it was presented in a vacuum. But previous statements regarding the emitter being made up of two, codependent aspects are NOT vague. They are very specifically laid out. 

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, I can. The Kathracite crystal is a very weak crystal, one in the lore only used for training sabers. Secondly, we already have a much more powerful crystal which is also non-lethal in the Kimber Stone, which, other than being non-lethal (including the lack of the Sunder and Breach qualities), is on par with two of the deadliest lightsaber crystals in the book (Mephite and the Krayt Dragon Pearl) in terms of damage, upgrades, and other qualities. The training emitter has the same base damage as the Ilum crystal, but is stun only and lacks Sunder and Breach. That’s it. This fits with Kathracite being the weakest crystal type, only used for training sabers, thus lacking Sunder and Breach. Third, I can take a basic lightsaber hilt, install a Cyclic Crystal Array, and then install into that array a Kathracite crystal/training emitter and a Mephite crystal, or even a larger Sorian or Solari crystal, (for example), all taking up just the two original Hard Points, taken up by a typical lightsaber crystal, and have a weapon I can switch from training mode to full power in an instant with the turn of a dial. So, mechanically, and narratively, all it takes to turn a basic lightsaber into a training lightsaber is swapping out one crystal for another. 

 Jedi Counseling 69

Star Wars Roleplaying Game Questions

Q: In Jedi Counseling 63, you described how you might use the crystals from the Knights of the Old Republic videogame in the Star Wars Roleplaying Game. What about the different types of Adegan crystals, such as those described in West End Games' Tales of the Jedi Companion?

A: Unlike the crystals mentioned in Jedi Counseling 63, which are added on in the form of modifications after the lightsaber is already built, the different Adegan crystals are used as the lightsaber crystal you imbue with the Force during construction (see page 175 of the revised Star Wars Roleplaying Game book for details).

  • A typical lightsaber (2d8 points of damage) is built with a crystal called mephite.
  • There are several weaker crystals that don't channel and focus energy quite as well, adding a penalty to all damage rolls: kathracite (-3 to damage), relacite (-2 to damage), and danite (-1 to damage).
  • There is one stronger Adegan crystal called pontite (+1 to damage).

Needless to say, Jedi don't like to use the weaker crystals when building a normal lightsaber. However, these crystals are acceptable when building a training lightsaber (page 54 of the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook). The lower power requirements and more diffuse blade of a training lightsaber mean that even kathracite can be used without imposing a penalty to its already low damage. Also, it's not uncommon for a low-level Padawan to be given a lightsaber with a weaker crystal to use until he crafts his own, at which point he seeks out a better crystal.

There you go Mike, they're not exclusively used for training sabers it's not even uncommon for a padawan to have a weaker crystal and if you noticed danite is only 1 step weaker than mephite, so it wouldn't even be uncommon for a padawans to have a lethal lightsaber with danite, and in ffg danite plus a low output power generator = training saber.

And in case you didn't notice even under rcr d20, training saber explicitly used low power compared to regular lightsabers. So you're arguing against what had been raw across multiple incarnations of the star wars rpg.

 

Btw from this table danite would seem to be equivalent to an ilum crystal and relacite would be a step down from ilum.  Or maybe ilum would get inserted between danite and mephite but the point remains that danite is not significantly weaker than an ilum crystal and it can be used in a training emitter.

And if you don't take the sentence that says training sabers are low power lightsabers with an ultra low output power generator, you don't get to apply the names "kathracite" or "danite" to the training emitter crystal.  So you're stuck between a rock (or if you prefer crystal) and a hard place.

Edited by EliasWindrider

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13 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

But it does NOT fit with other information presented in the books. Palpatine as a stalwart Jedi fits with him being strong in the Force.... if you ignore a few other bits of key information. The way the training emitter is portrayed within the primary source is counter to your interpretation. Ignoring that doesn't change it. 

Not sure what the kimber stone has to do with the argument. I'm not denying the idea that kathracite is inherently weaker then other stones. I'm denying that kathracite ALONE is what makes a saber a training saber.

To me, it's clear that the two components work together and must go together in order to function. Therefore, in order to have a training emitter in a cyclical array, they are BOTH installed, and a standard generator would connect to the alternate crystals. I'll admit, its vague and open to interpretation, especially if it was presented in a vacuum. But previous statements regarding the emitter being made up of two, codependent aspects are NOT vague. They are very specifically laid out. 

By RAW, it doesn’t require the installation of two separate components to turn a normal lightsaber into a training saber. All it requires is swapping out the crystal for a training emitter, which is a lightsaber crystal. So, no, it doesn’t require two separate components. It requires one—a crystal—specifically a Kathracite crystal training emitter. That’s it. So, no, all someone with a cyclic crystal array needs to do to have his lightsaber capable of going from standard mode to training mode is to have the array loaded with any standard lightsaber crystal in one slot and a training wmitin the other. That’s it. 

2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

 Jedi Counseling 69

Star Wars Roleplaying Game Questions

Q: In Jedi Counseling 63, you described how you might use the crystals from the Knights of the Old Republic videogame in the Star Wars Roleplaying Game. What about the different types of Adegan crystals, such as those described in West End Games' Tales of the Jedi Companion?

A: Unlike the crystals mentioned in Jedi Counseling 63, which are added on in the form of modifications after the lightsaber is already built, the different Adegan crystals are used as the lightsaber crystal you imbue with the Force during construction (see page 175 of the revised Star Wars Roleplaying Game book for details).

  • A typical lightsaber (2d8 points of damage) is built with a crystal called mephite.
  • There are several weaker crystals that don't channel and focus energy quite as well, adding a penalty to all damage rolls: kathracite (-3 to damage), relacite (-2 to damage), and danite (-1 to damage).
  • There is one stronger Adegan crystal called pontite (+1 to damage).

Needless to say, Jedi don't like to use the weaker crystals when building a normal lightsaber. However, these crystals are acceptable when building a training lightsaber (page 54 of the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook). The lower power requirements and more diffuse blade of a training lightsaber mean that even kathracite can be used without imposing a penalty to its already low damage. Also, it's not uncommon for a low-level Padawan to be given a lightsaber with a weaker crystal to use until he crafts his own, at which point he seeks out a better crystal.

There you go Mike, they're not exclusively used for training sabers it's not even uncommon for a padawan to have a weaker crystal and if you noticed danite is only 1 step weaker than mephite, so it wouldn't even be uncommon for a padawans to have a lethal lightsaber with danite, and in ffg danite plus a low output power generator = training saber.

Btw from this table danite would seem to be equivalent to an ilum crystal and relacite would be a step down from ilum.  Or maybe ilum would get inserted between danite and mephite but the point remains that danite is not significantly weaker than an ilum crystal and it can be used in a training emitter.

And if you don't take the sentence that says training sabers are low power lightsabers with an ultra low output power generator, you don't get to apply the names "kathracite" or "danite" to the training emitter crystal.  So you're stuck between a rock (or if you prefer crystal) and a hard place.

No, Keith, you’re not, because the actual game mechanics for the training saber contradicts that view. The game rules only require the replacement of a Ilum crystal (or other crystal) with a training emitter. The rules state that a training emitter is a lightsaber crystal, not a crystal and power cell. It’s not two separate attachments. Kathracite is what’s used for training emitters. And, as your link to the old WotC Jedi Counceling says, Kathracite produces a weaker, more diffuse blade. Now, I don’t remember the stats for a training saber in D20, and my books are at home. However, given that in this system the only real difference between a normal lightsaber and a training saber is the latter only does stun damage and lacks Breach and Sunder, while still doing the same points of damage. 

As for bringing up the Kimber Stone, the Kimber Stone is another example of a purely non-lethal lightsaber crystal, albeit a far more powerful one. As such, it is not that much of a stretch for Kathracite to be an inherently non-lethal crystal, one capable of only stun damage. This is wholly consistent with its use in training sabers as a training emitter. And, mechanically, all you need to turn a standard lightsaber into a training lightsaber is swap out the crystal with a training emitter (also a lightsaber crystal). The rules do not require the replacement of the energy cell, only the crystal. 

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22 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for bringing up the Kimber Stone, the Kimber Stone is another example of a purely non-lethal lightsaber crystal, albeit a far more powerful one. As such, it is not that much of a stretch for Kathracite to be an inherently non-lethal crystal, one capable of only stun damage.

...Okay? Even if you're right and it IS an inherently non-lethal crystal, that doesn't make it a training emitter. You're still failing to address the fact that the book states that a training emitter is made up of a crystal AND a modified generator. 

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3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

By RAW, it doesn’t require the installation of two separate components to turn a normal lightsaber into a training saber. All it requires is swapping out the crystal for a training emitter, which is a lightsaber crystal. So, no, it doesn’t require two separate components. It requires one—a crystal—specifically a Kathracite crystal training emitter. That’s it. So, no, all someone with a cyclic crystal array needs to do to have his lightsaber capable of going from standard mode to training mode is to have the array loaded with any standard lightsaber crystal in one slot and a training wmitin the other. That’s it. 

No, Keith, you’re not, because the actual game mechanics for the training saber contradicts that view. The game rules only require the replacement of a Ilum crystal (or other crystal) with a training emitter. The rules state that a training emitter is a lightsaber crystal, not a crystal and power cell. It’s not two separate attachments. Kathracite is what’s used for training emitters. And, as your link to the old WotC Jedi Counceling says, Kathracite produces a weaker, more diffuse blade. Now, I don’t remember the stats for a training saber in D20, and my books are at home. However, given that in this system the only real difference between a normal lightsaber and a training saber is the latter only does stun damage and lacks Breach and Sunder, while still doing the same points of damage. 

As for bringing up the Kimber Stone, the Kimber Stone is another example of a purely non-lethal lightsaber crystal, albeit a far more powerful one. As such, it is not that much of a stretch for Kathracite to be an inherently non-lethal crystal, one capable of only stun damage. This is wholly consistent with its use in training sabers as a training emitter. And, mechanically, all you need to turn a standard lightsaber into a training lightsaber is swap out the crystal with a training emitter (also a lightsaber crystal). The rules do not require the replacement of the energy cell, only the crystal. 

Please tell me what "no I'm not" because I didn't claim to be anything.

But if you want me to make a claim fine here it is... my view that training sabers deal non lethal because they limit the power being pushed through the crystal has been raw for multiple editions of the star wars rpg.  Here's another claim, in multiple editions of the star wars rpg lightsabers with kathracite and danite crystals that aren't explicitly training sabers have dealt lethal damage.  Here's a third, I'm being logically self consistent.  Here's a 4th you are not being logically self consistent.

You don't get the only sentence that gives you the labels/names "kathracite" or "danite" for the training emitter crystal without training sabers being explicitly low power sabers with ultra low output power generators.  I suppose if you wanted you would be self consistent (if illogical) to call a training emitter just a crystal without a name.  But for a training emitter crystal to be katharcite a training lightsaber has an ultra low output power generator.

Wait no you still wouldn't be self consistent unless you can show me RAW, not fluff text, that says the superior attachment added to a lightsaber grants a lock on switch.

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26 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

...Okay? Even if you're right and it IS an inherently non-lethal crystal, that doesn't make it a training emitter. You're still failing to address the fact that the book states that a training emitter is made up of a crystal AND a modified generator. 

The book also states that the training emitter is a lightsaber crystal. In other words, it is a single attachment which takes up two hard points which creates the blade of the saber. It is not two separate attachments. It is a single “lightsaber crystal” attachment. As stated on page 200 of the F&D CRB, “A training emitter is a lightsaber crystal.” The only difference between a normal lightsaber and a training lightsaber is the crystal. One has an Ilum crystal ( or one of any number of the other kyber crystals published in the source books), the other has a training emitter. That’s it. No difference in the power cells, nothing. Only a difference in the crystal installed. Based on that, yes, the Kathracite crystal is a training emitter. And, for the record, I’m not failing to address the flavor text. My point is that the flavor text does not match up with the actual game mechanics rule. The actual game mechanics rules on both pages 178 and 200 specifically state that a training lightsaber is a standard basic lightsaber hilt with a training emitter, which is a lightsaber crystal. What the “flavor text” establishes regarding what type of lightsaber crystal it is, is that the training emitter is typically either a Kathracite or Danite crystal. Mechanically it is still a single lightsaber crystal, not two separate attachments.

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1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Please tell me what "no I'm not" because I didn't claim to be anything.

But if you want me to make a claim fine here it is... my view that training sabers deal non lethal because they limit the power being pushed through the crystal has been raw for multiple editions of the star wars rpg.  Here's another claim, in multiple editions of the star wars rpg lightsabers with kathracite and danite crystals that aren't explicitly training sabers have dealt lethal damage.  Here's a third, I'm being logically self consistent.  Here's a 4th you are not being logically self consistent.

You don't get the only sentence that gives you the labels/names "kathracite" or "danite" for the training emitter crystal without training sabers being explicitly low power sabers with ultra low output power generators.  I suppose if you wanted you would be self consistent (if illogical) to call a training emitter just a crystal without a name.  But for a training emitter crystal to be katharcite a training lightsaber has an ultra low output power generator.

Wait no you still wouldn't be self consistent unless you can show me RAW, not fluff text, that says the superior attachment added to a lightsaber grants a lock on switch.

Wrong, Keith. Because the game mechanics themselves specifically state that the only mechanical difference between a standard lightsaber and a training lightsaber is the crystal installed. Take the training emitter out of a lightsaber hilt and you have a standard basic lightsaber hilt with the stats provided on page on page 179. Put in an Ilum crystal and it is a fully functioning lightsaber with the appropriate stats for that crystal. It does not require any further modifications or attachments.  

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Please show me the RAW that explicitly says a training emitter is ONLY a crystal and doesn't come with other parts.  Cause there is official fluff text that says it also takes an ultra low output generator, there's just no extra game mechanics with it.

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This... I can't argue with this. It's ludicrous, the level of denial in play. Some of the text you outright ignore, some of it you seem determined to deliberately misinterpret, and the rest you hold up as ultimate proof.

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1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Wrong, Keith. Because the game mechanics themselves specifically state that the only mechanical difference between a standard lightsaber and a training lightsaber is the crystal installed. Take the training emitter out of a lightsaber hilt and you have a standard basic lightsaber hilt with the stats provided on page on page 179. Put in an Ilum crystal and it is a fully functioning lightsaber with the appropriate stats for that crystal. It does not require any further modifications or attachments.  

 

1) You still don't get kathracite as the name of the crystal without it being a low power saber

2) you are wrong about only having to install an ilum crystal, you first have to UNINSTALL the training emitter which covers the power generator swap.

 

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24 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Please show me the RAW that explicitly says a training emitter is ONLY a crystal and doesn't come with other parts.  Cause there is official fluff text that says it also takes an ultra low output generator, there's just no extra game mechanics with it.

Page 200 of the F&D core rules:

Quote

A training emitter is a lightsaber crystal. 

Base Modifiers: installing this crystal changes a lightsaber’s damage to 6 and its critical rating to -, and the lightsaber gains the Stun Damage quality. If the crystal is removed, the lightsaber loses this quality and reverts to its previous base damage and critical rating. 

Hard Points required: 2

Page 178 says the same thing about a Training Lightsaber:

Quote

This lightsaber is a basic lightsaber hilt containing an unmodified training emitter (see page 200). This crystal takes two hard points.” 

That is the game mechanics of the training lightsaber and the training emitter. A training emitter is is a lightsaber crystal and takes two hard points from a basic lightsaber hilt. Remove the training emitter and you have a normal basic lightsaber hilt into which you can install any other lightsaber crystal and get a fully functioning, full power  lightsaber.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Page 200 of the F&D core rules:

Page 178 says the same thing about a Training Lightsaber:

That is the game mechanics of the training lightsaber and the training emitter. A training emitter is is a lightsaber crystal and takes two hard points from a basic lightsaber hilt. Remove the training emitter and you have a normal basic lightsaber hilt into which you can install any other lightsaber crystal and get a fully functioning, full power  lightsaber.

FAIL... neither of those say the training emitter is ONLY a crystal.  Yes it's a crystal but nothing in the RAW says it's ONLY a crystal and the fluff text says it's a crystal and an ultra low output power generator.  The RAW also strongly implies it's more than just a crystal because they NAMED it an emitter instead of a crystal.

Care to try again?  Cause as of now you're batting zero.

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