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Sadgit

Reviving a hero and counting spaces

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The rulebook states that when a hero is revived, "The knocked out hero rolls two red power dice, recovers damage equal to the [Heart] rolled, recovers fatigue equal to the [Fatigue] rolled, and then replaces his hero token with his figure."

Let's say a monster is standing on top of the knocked out hero. The hero would be placed in an adjacent empty space, hero's choice. Enter Elder Mok's Hero ability. The rulebook quote above states that the trigger for Elder Mok's ability (a hero within 3 spaces recovers Heart or Fatigue) would happen before placement of the revived hero.  I am pretty sure that you would still count spaces to the space in which the hero is placed, not the space of the hero token. The hero is not on the map before that time point, after all. Does someone have a uFAQ on that?

Edited by Sadgit

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Even though the hero is not on the map at that time, his hero token is. Since hero tokens are special exceptions in that they can be the target of healing effects, I would argue that Elder Mok would be looking at the square the hero token is located, rather than where the hero is placed on the map. The healing occurs while the hero is still represented by the token, not the figure.

I don't have any official ruling or documentation to support my claim - just stating how I'd handle it in the absence of such.

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Sadgit you find the most wonderful edge cases.

RAW I'd say Mok gets nothing, because you can't count spaces to a figure that isn't on the board. To me the recovery trigger is finished before the figure gets placed. Personally I think this is one of those weird cases where FFG would make an exception to the rule because the RAW don't fit the intention of the ability. Best to just ask FFG here.

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I'm with Charmy on this. But this also comes from my gutt feeling.

As the hero gets recovers health and gets up, he goes like: "Well, I'm supposed to be here now, but this space is occupied. I have to 'move' somewhere else." Hence, Elder Mok will recover health before the hero is 'moved'.

ps. awesome problem Sadgit :D

Edited by delffi

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7 hours ago, Zaltyre said:

I'm with Charmy. Healing effect counts token as hero for range purposes.

This is certainly true for tokens of heroes that receive the heal. Do you think it is also true in this situation? After all, Mok recovers Health (or Fatigue) depending on the position of a hero token of another hero? I vaguely remember something from FFG that could be applied to this situation, but can' find it anymore ...  

Edited by Sadgit

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My reasoning is that Mok recovers when another hero within 3 spaces recovers. The other hero is represented by a hero token at the time of the heal. Thus Mok will test his hero ability relative to that space.

The placement of the hero figure from revival occurs after the heal and the trigger of Mok's ability.

Edited by Charmy

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Yep. However, then this is a remarkable exception. Usually spaces cannot be counted to figures not on the map. The only other exception is if the hero (token) is targeted by an heal ability. This is not the case here as Mok is either healing himself or recovering fatigue himself.

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I found 2 mentions in the rule book that talk about hero tokens and what they represent.

Quote

A space containing a knocked out hero (represented by a hero token) is considered to be empty to other figures for the purposes of movement

So the space still has a hero, just represented by a token.

and...

Quote

While monster attacks cannot target or affect a knocked out hero, hero players may only target a knocked out hero with an ability that would allow the knocked out hero to recover any amount of damage. For this exception, the knocked out hero’s hero token is treated as a hero even if another figure occupies the space containing the hero token.

The token is treated as a hero when being targeted by a healing ability, so that would seem to satisfy Mok's requirement of a hero within 3 spaces being healed.

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6 hours ago, Sadgit said:

Yep. However, then this is a remarkable exception. Usually spaces cannot be counted to figures not on the map. The only other exception is if the hero (token) is targeted by an heal ability. This is not the case here as Mok is either healing himself or recovering fatigue himself.

While I strictly agree with you, it is fairly clear that the FFG definition of "healing ability" is not so strict. For example, Crow Hags can count to KO heroes for their healing prevention ability. In other words, a KO hero standing up counts as "a hero recovering wound" for crow hags, as well as for Mok. It seems reasonable ESPECIALLY considering your note of the timing that ranfe would be counted to the token space.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Great, your comment made me remember were I read the relevant uFAQ on knocked-out heroes. It is actually a very interesting old thread by Zaltyre, Ominlash, Charmy and others  :) Here is the relevant part:

Quote

Yes, Lifethirst does effect knocked-out heroes. Since a knocked-out hero can be targeted by healing effects, effects that affect the healing effects are still used. Knocked-out heroes are not considered on the map unless targeted by a healing ability and an ability that would affect that healing ability.

Together with Darwins Dog's quote and this uFAQ, it seems to be pretty clear: A knocked-out hero is considered to be on the map as soon as a healing ability affects him/her. Then the hero recovers hearts, then the hero figure is placed on the map. Thus, for Mok's Hero ability spaces are indeed counted to the space with the hero token, regardless where the figure is placed afterwards.

Problem solved and will be included in the next CRRG version. Thanks, mates!    

Edited by Sadgit

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Draft for a bullet that will be added to CRRG entries Revive, Stand Up and Defeated.

Quote

A knocked down-hero (represented by his hero token) is considered to be on the map as soon as he is affected by an ability or effect whose primary consequence is related to healing. For abilities or effects that trigger when a figure recovers HEARTS or FATIGUE, spaces are counted to hero token, before the corresponding figure is placed on the map.

Any suggestions to improve clarity?

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I like the simple form above with a minor change and your ending:

Knocked-out heroes are not considered on the map unless targeted by a healing ability or an ability that triggers from a such a healing ability . For abilities or effects that trigger when a figure recovers HEARTS or FATIGUE, spaces are counted to hero token rather than the space of the replaced figure, if distinct.

 

 

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I would clarify that a knocked out hero can only be targeted by abilities that recover hearts. If it happens to recover both, that is okay too.

However, if the effect only recovers fatigue, a knocked out hero is not a valid target.

Edited by Charmy

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@Charmy Mmmh, I think there might be a misunderstanding here.

Zaltyre is referring to abilities (e.g. Mok's Hero ability) that trigger when a hero recovers HEART by something else.

Let's say hero A is knocked out, hero B  has an ability that triggers when a hero recovers HEART, and hero C has an ability that triggers when a hero recovers FATIGUE. If hero A stands up and recovers HEARTS and FATIGUE, spaces for abilities of hero B and hero C would be counted to the hero A token.

Edited by Sadgit

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21 hours ago, Zaltyre said:

I like the simple form above with a minor change and your ending:

Knocked-out heroes are not considered on the map unless targeted by a healing ability or an ability that triggers from a such a healing ability . For abilities or effects that trigger when a figure recovers HEARTS or FATIGUE, spaces are counted to hero token rather than the space of the replaced figure, if distinct.

I know, we had this discussion before: Do you consider a stand-up or revive action to be an healing ability? I added "effect" to make sure that those actions are included.

In addition, I have chosen the phrase "whose primary consequence is related to healing" to exclude things like the prophet's Soothing Insight, which cannot be used to heal a knocked out hero.

EDIT: What about this (for Revive):

  • If a hero is revived, his player performs the following steps in sequence:
  1. Roll two red power dice and recover damage equal to the HEARTS rolled, recover FATIGUE equal to the SURGES  rolled.
  2. Replace hero token with the corresponding hero figure. If another figure occupies the space containing the hero token, the player places his figure in the closest empty space to his hero token of that hero player's choice. The player is allowed to choose a space on the other side of an elevation line.
  • For effects that trigger in step 1 (with triggers such as "when a hero recovers HEART"), spaces are counted to the hero token (rather than to the space the hero figure is placed in step 2).

 

Edited by Sadgit

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That sounds alright for revive.

I would consider "Revive" a healing ability. It's a hero ability which costs an action, and that every hero has access to.

In my brain, anything any figure can do  (action, skill, item text, etc) is an "ability." Effects would seem to also include things like end-of-round effects and other quest special rules. Cards can also have effects for sure (word of misery, for example).

I guess what I'm saying is "abilities" are performed by figures. "Effects" are not ascribed to individual actors. I don't really know if that distinction ever matters for the rules (and it's my own). 

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