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Celestial Lizards

Hardpoints vs Tubular Ordnance

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Just for reference, I only play Imperials.

I really like the Epic format, and want to do a lot more of it. When outfitting my Raider and Gozandheit, I don't know which to use: Tubular Ordnance (missiles out of ordnance tubes for you wusses) or Hardpoints. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each, and which do you find is better on these two ships?

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Edited by Celestial Lizards

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Very limited actual experience here so take this for what its worth...

It seems like energy management can be a problem with the big ships so being able to fire ordnance instead can free that up a bit.  The down side is being limited to having to target lock your targets.  You also have the problem of what ranges to go with.  Some hard points let you shoot out to range 4-5 while torps and missiles are at best range 3.

So if you think you will be ably to have plenty of target locks and plan on getting up close and personal with the enemy with faster speed/low energy moves, tubes could work.  If you want to slow roll in with high energy low speed moves and plink from a distance while your fighters keep the enemy off your back, then go with the hardpoints.

My one time flying my Raider I had one hardpoint gun and a missile on each of the sections.  It was hard to gauge success since my opponent was new to epic and brought something like 6 really decked out ships.  I think he had 2 Punishers near 50 points each.  A lot of his munitions just fueled the flames from his own ships as they blew up.

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I wonder if they will ever release an epic that has a hard point or two but can also throw on a regular turret or cannon upgrade.  Something with a few different arcs like the Raider that can throw on a TLT, and two HLC's might be kind of fun if they balanced the rest of the ship's design correctly.

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On gozanti I always run turret because it's either support (wants to be close to my fighters and so isn't steering bas3d on firing arc) or barebones to just be a ps13* superlarge base generic.

 

For raider I always run ordnance tubes because shooting 5 times 4/5 of them modified at the cost of 2 energy a crew slot and a title(raider title to acquire locks on a kill+weapons engineer+spend 2 energy to fire primary twice) is ace. Also something something macross missile massacre. Every time I try to run lasers on a raider I have to dump too much points into keeping it firing more than 2 turns. Full disclosure I fire everything when possible.

 

*ps2 but she moves and locks after all the aces

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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Energy weapons need so much energy that you can only fire them for 2 rounds or so. Or you have to ration firing them, or just fit a couple. But longer range is feasible.

Ordnance: needs target locks, so limited targets and shorter range generally.

They're pretty even.

An ordnance raider loses to a long-range CR90, but beats fighters; which in turn beat a long-range CR90.

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6 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

On gozanti I always run turret because it's either support (wants to be close to my fighters and so isn't steering bas3d on firing arc) or barebones to just be a ps13* superlarge base generic.

 

For raider I always run ordnance tubes because shooting 5 times 4/5 of them modified at the cost of 2 energy a crew slot and a title(raider title to acquire locks on a kill+weapons engineer+spend 2 energy to fire primary twice) is ace. Also something something macross missile massacre. Every time I try to run lasers on a raider I have to dump too much points into keeping it firing more than 2 turns. Full disclosure I fire everything when possible.

That's the build I used the one time I flew a Raider.  It was very effective but as I said earlier in this thread, my opponent brought a really "bad for epic" list.  Good to know others use similar builds.

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Why not both?  

Empire Epic  (173)

Raider-class Corvette (Fore) (62) - Raider-class Corv. (Fore)
Assault Missiles (5), Sensor Team (4), Engine Booster (3)

Raider-class Corvette (Aft) (88) - Raider-class Corv. (Aft)
Gunner (5), Weapons Engineer (3), Assault Missiles (5), Single Turbolasers (8), IG-RM Thug Droids (1), Ordnance Experts (5), Backup Shield Generator (3), •Impetuous (3), Ordnance Tubes (5)

•"Howlrunner" (23) - TIE Fighter
Swarm Tactics (2), Stealth Device (3)

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For Gozanti or c-roc i basically always equip their turret.

i don’t have a raider, but if I did I’d either try for a mix of hard points and ordnance or maybe just ordnance. I really like the missile build that just cuts it’s way through everything.

My cr90 loves sitting back at range 5 firing single turbo lasers in broadsides at enemy huge ships and low agi (0-1) ships. I couldn’t imagine intentionally taking it into range 2-3 for ordnance.

Edited by ScummyRebel

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So the limits to Epic ordenance is well the limits on Huge ship. So any <missile> or <torpedo> secondary weapon that has the header ATTACK [FOCUS] will not be used on Huge ships. So lets take a look at Hardpoints and Missile/Torpedo secondary weapons.

Hardpoint

  • Uses Energy
  • Goes out to Range 4 and 5
  • Keeps <modification> slot open for things like Automated Protocols.
  • Sometimes has negatives (i.e. Single Turbolaser doubleing defender's agility)

Ordenance

  • Uses Target Lock
  • Only good at Ranges 1-3
  • Uses Modification Slot 
  • Sometimes Spends the Target Lock

So with Hardpoints the big negative is the energy use also the single turbolaser is rather restricted to low agility targets (although I was able to land a hit on Soontir at range 5 once, I meant to use Vader to do most of the damage which finished him off). Again with hardpoint builds you will be draining energy like crazy so you will have to keep your dial slow to generate as much energy tokens as possible.

With ordnance Weapons Engineer seems almost like a requirement unless you are on a C-roc or Gozanti. It doesn't drain energy but it also doesn't expand the capacity so you still won't be spamming recovery actions to keep the behemoth alive. But it can also be combined in conjunction with hardpoints to devastating effect. You could imagine a Raider with Cluster missiles and Quad laser cannons to be a close range brawler spitting out anti-fighter broadsides that can kill the hardest of Aces or smaller ships. Again energy management isn't much of a concern so you can be at a steady 4 straight and 2 banks without much worry.

So that is the difference between the two. To be honest I haven't played much with Ordnance tubes (I have bombers for that). 

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I prefer ordinance over energy consuming hardpoint weapons. Especially with Harpoon Missiles out (I used to use Homing) they are pretty deadly. I know Jamming Beam can ruin your day, but that’s why I try to keep my targets open and in range after locking onto two ships with Weapons Engineer. Best results I’ve had so far is landing a Harpoon + Clusters at range 2 on the fore of the CR-90 and finally melting its shields and hull. I also use the teams to modify my dice by spending energy since I don’t use energy much for anything else.

I also gotta say that Clusters make for great point defense as well. Sure, you spend your target lock, but attacking twice is well worth spending it to potentially deal a significant amount of damage to another Epic ship or enemy fighter getting too close for comfort.

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Haven't really tried Ordnance Tubes all that much, but my eyes are sort of drawn to those Torps and Missiles that have some sort of dice mod potential to them. So, to those who tried- are Proton Torps or Concussion Missiles a worthwhile pick on, say, a Raider?

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58 minutes ago, DampfGecko said:

Haven't really tried Ordnance Tubes all that much, but my eyes are sort of drawn to those Torps and Missiles that have some sort of dice mod potential to them. So, to those who tried- are Proton Torps or Concussion Missiles a worthwhile pick on, say, a Raider?

Proton Torpedoes more so because they can convert a focus to a crit. As I said before it is very hard for Huge ships to do anything with <focus> results. To be honest small/large ships have an easier time dealing with <blank> results than a huge ship whenever it rolls <focus>. 

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So Concussion Missiles are a no-go, unless you brought Wookie Commandos along.

swx64-wookiee-commandos.jpg

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On ‎08‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 11:28 PM, Gilarius said:

Energy weapons need so much energy that you can only fire them for 2 rounds or so. Or you have to ration firing them, or just fit a couple. But longer range is feasible.

Ordnance: needs target locks, so limited targets and shorter range generally.

They're pretty even.

An ordnance raider loses to a long-range CR90, but beats fighters; which in turn beat a long-range CR90.

Also worth noting with the most recent waves: Jam tokens are a pain in the [unspeakable] for ordnance tube warships.

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The few times I have put a weapon on my Gozanti, I felt it was a waste of space/energy/action economy, so I just skip it now. My Gozanti's weapons are 4 sucicidal, fresh-from-the-academy, bloodthirsty maniacs flying TIE Interceptors.

For the Raider, I love Optimized Generators too much to go with Ordnance. They are a godsend. If I dump an energy on a hardpoint, I suddenly have enough energy to fire my primary weapon twice. It's just too good! With that kind of firepower, I can afford to take an Ion Cannon Battery to fire at range, and try to disable enemy ships, even though it doesn't deal a ton of damage. Or the Tactician Raider filled out with Quad Turbolasers - remember, they only cost 1 energy to shoot, so they are relatively light on the energy consumption. If the second shot is unlikely to hit, you can save it. Or, considering Tactician, you could spend 2 energy to double stress an IG-2000 (or some other ace) - I'd take that trade any day!

It sounds like I need to give Ordnance Raider a try, but lacking any Harpoon Missiles, it feels like I'm gimping myself if I take any other ordnance. I'd probably go Homing Missiles or Proton Torpedoes.

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I'm a fan of the Energy use hardpoints, you just have to manage the energy use. I feel like TG and optimized gens are a must for that type of load out.

I am a fan of the Knife Fight Raider that is all Quad Lasers and slap a Tactician in there for the stress.

If you go that route the Engineers team is helpful for that one extra energy that you'll want for those fast straight moves you are making to get into range.

As i saw earlier in this post I'd like to see the ability to be able to equip some of the cannon upgrades, HLC or TB could be fun.

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