Black Riders, Hide Tests, and the FAQ

[Seastan 1,324]

Quote

Hide X

Hide X is a new keyword in this scenario. When an encounter card with the Hide X keyword is revealed, the player who revealed the card must make a Hide test. If the encounter card with the Hide X keyword also has a “When Revealed” or “Forced” effect, the Hide test must be resolved before resolving the rest of the card.

How I think a failed Hide test in the case of a Black Rider (BR) is supposed to work:

1. Reveal BR

2. Add BR to staging area

3. Perform Hide test

4. Fail Hide test

5. BR engages player

6. BR makes attack

 

But where to we find a reference for the placement of step 2? This is important of course, because if step 2 comes after the Hide test, the forced engagement and attack won't trigger.

Then there's this from the FAQ:

Quote

Q: When an enemy makes an attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is that enemy in the staging area?

A: No. Enemies are added to the staging after resolving their “when revealed” effects. An enemy that makes an attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is not in the staging area or engaged with the defending player unless a card effect says it is.

Now, the phrasing of the Hide X rules specifically say "When an encounter card with the Hide X keyword is revealed". Wouldn't this mean that in fact Hide X should trigger before the BR is in the staging area (albeit after other "When Revealed" effects that may be printed on the card)? This would mean nearly everyone (myself included) has been playing this wrong. How do we resolve it?

 

 

[Ywingscum 842]

Sounds to me when you reveal a black rider, hide test is performed immediately and if failed engages you immediately never entering the staging area.

the text in the quest card is a cover all in case hide tests can be made in other situations 

[sappidus 531]

39 minutes ago, Seastan said:

Now, the phrasing of the Hide X rules specifically say "When an encounter card with the Hide X keyword is revealed". Wouldn't this mean that in fact Hide X should trigger before the BR is in the staging area (albeit after other "When Revealed" effects that may be printed on the card)? This would mean nearly everyone (myself included) has been playing this wrong. How do we resolve it?

[pterodacted]

Edited January 8, 2018 by sappidus

[Rouxxor 271]

As far as I know the LOTR rules you are right about the order of resolution. Normally a black rider should not attacked on his own hide test. But I'm pretty sure it is what the designer intent to do and, if asked, the answer will be to do an attack for the black rider.

But the only way to really know is to ask :).

[sappidus 531]

Errata the quest card to say, "…each Nazgûl enemy in play (that is not engaged with a player) engages that player."

Errata the Black Rider to have the passive text, "Black Rider is considered to be in play."

Edited January 8, 2018 by sappidus

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

This question seemed familiar, and I was right.. we have an official response from several years ago.  Response was:

"Your interpretation of the timing is correct. Unfortunately, that’s not how the scenario is intended to work. When a Black Rider is revealed and you fail its Hide 2 test, it is meant to engage you and attack. I think everyone involved in developing this scenario understood this intent so intuitively that no one bothered to scrutinize the timing as closely as you have.

 

As a result, it will probably be necessary to errata each quest stage to change the phrase “each Nazgul enemy in the staging area” to “each unengaged Nazgul enemy in play.” In the meantime, you can choose to play it as written or as intended. Either way, I hope you’re enjoying The Black Riders!
 

Cheers,
Caleb"

And the thread is here:

 

 

 

[Seastan 1,324]

Thanks for the link @GrandSpleen, that answers it.

Caleb suggests a potential errata to the quest stage to be "Each Nazgul enemy in play". But are the Nazgul really in play before they enter the staging area?

I think the best resolution to this would to errata the enemies. Instead of "Hide 2" it should be "When Revealed: Add Black Rider to the staging area. Then, perform a Hide 2 test."

[NathanH 350]

35 minutes ago, Seastan said:

Thanks for the link @GrandSpleen, that answers it.

Caleb suggests a potential errata to the quest stage to be "Each Nazgul enemy in play". But are the Nazgul really in play before they enter the staging area?

I think the best resolution to this would to errata the enemies. Instead of "Hide 2" it should be "When Revealed: Add Black Rider to the staging area. Then, perform a Hide 2 test."

Enemies are in play as soon as they are taken from the top of the encounter deck, else they wouldn't be able to e.g. receive damage from Thalin. They go to some mysterious "currently being revealed" zone while does so, I guess.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

 

1 hour ago, Seastan said:

Thanks for the link @GrandSpleen, that answers it.

Caleb suggests a potential errata to the quest stage to be "Each Nazgul enemy in play". But are the Nazgul really in play before they enter the staging area?

I think the best resolution to this would to errata the enemies. Instead of "Hide 2" it should be "When Revealed: Add Black Rider to the staging area. Then, perform a Hide 2 test."

 

Sure they're in play -- it's that ill-defined limbo that exists between "revealed" and "in the staging area."  Thalin can damage them at that point and, as you pointed out from the FAQ above, enemies can attack via a When Revealed effect before they are added to the staging area.  So, must be in play.  

 

(edit: whoops, NathanH beat me to the punch, I should read all responses first!)

Edited January 8, 2018 by GrandSpleen

[PachiLOTR 9]

3 minutes ago, GrandSpleen said:

 

 

Sure they're in play -- it's that ill-defined limbo that exists between "revealed" and "in the staging area."  Thalin can damage them at that point and, as you pointed out from the FAQ above, enemies can attack via a When Revealed effect before they are added to the staging area.  So, must be in play.  

Yeah, they are definitely in play.  This discussion has happened before.  Enemies are "in play" for the purposes of being able to damage them, but any effects that trigger off the card "entering play" are not resolved until the card has been placed in the staging area (or any other in play area if directed by card text such as Goblin Follower).

[Kakita Shiro 992]

I think the easiest fix is "Forced Reaction: Hide 2"

[Seastan 1,324]

15 hours ago, PachiLOTR said:

Yeah, they are definitely in play.  This discussion has happened before.  Enemies are "in play" for the purposes of being able to damage them, but any effects that trigger off the card "entering play" are not resolved until the card has been placed in the staging area (or any other in play area if directed by card text such as Goblin Follower).

Ah yes, I recall we resolved this by saying that the enemies were "considered to be in play" while being revealed, but don't "enter play" until they are added to the staging area.