Why wouldn’t Genius work with Trajectory Simulator?

[muribundi 406]

Seriously, if people want to block Genius and Trajectory Simulator, I see only one way.

The new wording of Genius say that you drop the corresponding bomb token. But Trajectory Simulator care for the Drop a Bomb event, that seems to be a meta event, like when you look at Constable Zuvio. Constable Zuvio say that you can Drop a Bomb and everyone assume that you still discard the upgrade because the "Drop a Bomb" will have to follow the card instruction. But Genius do not instruct you to Drop a Bomb, it instruct you to discard an upgrade and then drop the corresponding bomb token, exactly like the Bomb Upgrade would instruct you to do. (Seismic Charges: drop 1 seismic charges token)

But it can also be argued that the Launch instead of drop is referencing the token drop and not the meta event of drop a bomb...

Either way I don't care, but right now that is the only technicality that can be used to rule out Genius + Trajectory Simulator... no some kind of weird invention of double replacement effect...

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

It works by RAW, but it shouldn't work for game balance reasons.

Honestly, I think the Scurrg being able to equip Genuis at all was a huge mistake.  It was clearly intended, all three unique pilots have a way of avoiding Genius bombs natively, RNym by holding them, SNym by ignoring them, Sol by dropping one way and rolling all the way for ward the other - but the game has NEVER been made better by high PS pilots being able to make autodamaging decisions with perfect information.

My proposed errata: Prepend 'your pilot skill is treated as 0'  to Genius, and append 'after you discard a [bomb] upgrade without the Action header, you may discard this card.'

Use him if you want...

[D34d guru 32]

It can go either way...

The knot Will Be unknotted one day.

Personally i don t use the combo for one reason.

Genius and trajectory sim both follow upon the ,"let's drop a bomb " command, so either you opt to use Genius to delay your drop or you opt to launch it according to those rules. Those are " reveal blabla dial bla bla drop becomes launch blabla END.

Most rule bickering ppl would even find a way to fit PTL and Boost in that line to shoot their bomb token in the opponents eye.

 

ps: i would not use the launch and drop bomb in one turn as well, as i consider the shizl a one bomb in any form thingy

Edited January 19, 2018 by D34d guru

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

47 minutes ago, D34d guru said:

Most rule bickering ppl would even find a way to fit PTL and Boost in that line to shoot their bomb token in the opponents eye.

Experimental Interface. PTL wont let you boost then genius (action on action bar), you'd need EI to boost then genius.

I honestly don't see how this combo is "broken" considering the genius errata... IMO "ATTACK [Target Lock]" missiles that do not require the spending of the target lock to perform the attack are far more broken...

[D34d guru 32]

3 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

Experimental Interface. PTL wont let you boost then genius (action on action bar), you'd need EI to boost then genius.

I honestly don't see how this combo is "broken" considering the genius errata... IMO "ATTACK [Target Lock]" missiles that do not require the spending of the target lock to perform the attack are far more broken...

... sarcasm /off ;-)

the harpoons are nasty stuff, correct. I don't mind them at all, they hit hard, but no fleet is all winning. Eg... stress still hurts ordenance users. dbris field, tacticians whatever mechanic they give. Token/target lock stripping.... has gained in importance i think.

[Sephlar 260]

So wait... a TO at a regional event has made a ruling prior to an event and this is a BAD thing?

Better to know prior to the event than show up the day of with a list OR worse find out the first time you try the interaction in a game.

Which is a good reminder... THIS IS A GAME!! If you don't like the way a tournament is run or the way a TO has ruled, play somewhere else. If you don't like the way a rule is handled, play a different game.

IF half the people who were going to run Nymiranda with Genius and Trajectory Simulator now will not... that is GOOD for the overall meta. Tournaments are better when the meta is wide open. Seeing mirror match after mirror match with a game that has 50 some different models and hundreds of pilots and upgrades is boring. Going to a regional and facing the same list over and over again is boring.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

It's bad because it sets a precedent where tos can overrule RAW if they happen not to like it. Basically.

[BDrafty 490]

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's bad because it sets a precedent where tos can overrule RAW if they happen not to like it. Basically.

Always been the case that they can make on the spot rulings that you can't argue. Even if law and logic are on your side; what they say has to be taken as the ruling. (I speak from bitter experience)

I'm not sure if it has been brought up, but Deathrain's ability conflicts with the TS card. He isn't able to do his barrel roll after a launch. Could they have used this same line of logic to come to this ruling?

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

What line of logic? Deathrain has no interaction with TS. Genius does.

[emeraldbeacon 1,996]

UNOFFICIAL RULING:  Leading up to the Regionals event at FFG headquarters, their TO (who presumably has some contact with the Game Devs) has ruled thusly:

Edited January 19, 2018 by emeraldbeacon
added image

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

3 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

who presumably has some contact with the Game Devs

--

It will be wildly embarrassing for Kyle Dekker if the eventual (2020?) FAQ rules differently. For now, as this is the closest we have to something official, it's how I will rule...I don't like it, as it flies directly in the face of RAW but I understand my community will expect me to uphold this ruling.

Venting: This and Harpooned! vs. "Then cancel all dice results" weapons are two PRIME examples of why we NEED FFG to release substance based clarifications in FAQ form THROUGHOUT the season. I agree they shouldn't errata anything part way through a store championship, regional, or national event season so as to keep the playing field level for all who participated. But, AT THE VERY LEAST, provide us with clarifications so we can all figure out how the f*** the upgrade cards we bought from you are INTENDED to work!!!  For the sake of the game, if you're going to release NEW content and allow it to be used competitively within 1 week of its release: TELL US HOW TO USE IT!!!!

Edited January 19, 2018 by ZealuxMyr

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

Not throughout the season, WHEN THEY RELEASE THE PRODUCT.

Literally, that should have been FAQed on the friday after the product came out on the thursday, I pegged it within a day of the preview coming out, there's no way the playtestedrs didn't notice it, it's infuriating that it's what, 4 months later and NOTHING.

[Sephlar 260]

5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's bad because it sets a precedent where tos can overrule RAW if they happen not to like it. Basically.

But TOs have had that power for years and years.

Not that I agree with you even on your premise.

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

1 hour ago, Sephlar said:

But TOs have had that power for years and years.

Not that I agree with you even on your premise.

Wrong.

The previous precedent has been that TOs follow RAW unless RAW is unclear, at which point they can make rulings.  There have been a couple of controversies recently where RAW WAS unclear and there were Strong Opinions either way.

RAW is eminently clear here, TOs should not be ruling otherwise until such time as there's an FAQ that tells them to.

And regardless, the problems would go away if FFG would release FAQs in a timely manner.

[USCGrad90 884]

9 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

What line of logic? Deathrain has no interaction with TS. Genius does.

If Deathrain has TS - the question is whether or not he can perform a barrel roll after launching the bomb.

If you follow the logic applied by the regional TOs - where Genius and TS DO NOT work together because "launching" is a substitutive effect that replaces a normal bomb drop - then the answer is NO, because Deathrain "launched" the bomb instead of dropping it.  Following along this same logic line, it means you could launch a bomb, perform your maneuver, and then drop an Action bomb - because you've just defined that "Launching" and 'Dropping" and bomb are not the same thing.

If you consider on the other hand that Genius and TS DO work together - then it stands to reason that Deathrain can perform a barrel roll after dropping or launching the bomb. 

It's a fair enough question to ask.  Based on the wording of Deathrain and TS - there's not a clear definition and it makes it subject to interpretation.

I believe the intent is that no ship would be able to place more than 1 bomb per turn, but because of the way Deathrain and TS are written, his ability to barrel roll needs to be addressed.

Edited January 20, 2018 by USCGrad90

[D34d guru 32]

On 20-1-2018 at 3:25 AM, USCGrad90 said:

If Deathrain has TS - the question is whether or not he can perform a barrel roll after launching the bomb.

If you follow the logic applied by the regional TOs - where Genius and TS DO NOT work together because "launching" is a substitutive effect that replaces a normal bomb drop - then the answer is NO, because Deathrain "launched" the bomb instead of dropping it.  Following along this same logic line, it means you could launch a bomb, perform your maneuver, and then drop an Action bomb - because you've just defined that "Launching" and 'Dropping" and bomb are not the same thing.

If you consider on the other hand that Genius and TS DO work together - then it stands to reason that Deathrain can perform a barrel roll after dropping or launching the bomb. 

It's a fair enough question to ask.  Based on the wording of Deathrain and TS - there's not a clear definition and it makes it subject to interpretation.

I believe the intent is that no ship would be able to place more than 1 bomb per turn, but because of the way Deathrain and TS are written, his ability to barrel roll needs to be addressed.

imho it is a stupid question to ask, mainly because it's bickering. Fiddling da lill hole.... twitching da lizard... mashing da potatoe.... just beeing an utter **** really.

You know that it has been stated you can only drop one bomb a turn.

The basic action is DROP a BOMB... TS states ..; change it into ; LAUNCH a bomb. Which also means that it is a changed DROP ACTION. So you get one a turn. And NO you can not make a barrel roll since you didn't complete the original stated DROP action. You completed an ALTERED DROP action

 

The main problem, most of the times, when it comes to the GAME-rules, really aren't the rules percé.

 

I've personally never even thought off exploiting that Genius-Launching system because it just didn't feel right.

If there comes a time when them FFG lads say it can be used together....  so be it.

If FFG deceides to alter some cards, for whatever reason they may have, so be it. 

If there is a real problem which results in a serious inbalance, most of the times it isn't because off bad wording on the cards.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by D34d guru

[USCGrad90 884]

23 hours ago, D34d guru said:

The basic action is DROP a BOMB... TS states ..; change it into ; LAUNCH a bomb. Which also means that it is a changed DROP ACTION. So you get one a turn. And NO you can not make a barrel roll since you didn't complete the original stated DROP action. You completed an ALTERED DROP action

Again - this comes into the meaning of the words.  Is an "Altered Drop" still a "Drop?"

Kind of like with the new Crossfire Formation Title.  All "Resistance" ships are "Rebels" but not all "Rebels" are "Resistance."

I agree that the intention is that you shouldn't be able to deploy 2 bombs in a turn, but because of the questioning on Nym-TS interaction and heavy use in the Regionals, it begs for clarification by FFG.

[D34d guru 32]

2 hours ago, USCGrad90 said:

Again - this comes into the meaning of the words.  Is an "Altered Drop" still a "Drop?"

Kind of like with the new Crossfire Formation Title.  All "Resistance" ships are "Rebels" but not all "Rebels" are "Resistance."

I agree that the intention is that you shouldn't be able to deploy 2 bombs in a turn, but because of the questioning on Nym-TS interaction and heavy use in the Regionals, it begs for clarification by FFG.

really?  This is a game..... not a language purification  witchhunt.....and pls... stop looking where there is nothing to see... you'll only ruin the fun of thousands of other players.

Use common sense...

 

c--->s

Edited January 21, 2018 by D34d guru

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

The trouble with common sense is that its super uncommon and very few people can agree on what the sense part is.

[Maui. 2,815]

The whole card interaction system is based on a kind of legalese interpretation of doing exactly what the cards say to do regardless of what interactions might have been intended. The idea is to make the interactions as clear as possible, which is a terrific goal, but if you're going to do things that way and you have a large competitive scene, it becomes really important that your devs are quick to clarify those muddy (or unintended and oppressive) card interactions.

[Ralgon 1,005]

On 1/20/2018 at 4:01 AM, Sephlar said:

Which is a good reminder... THIS IS A GAME!! If you don't like the way a tournament is run or the way a TO has ruled, play somewhere else. If you don't like the way a rule is handled, play a different game.

IF half the people who were going to run Nymiranda with Genius and Trajectory Simulator now will not... that is GOOD for the overall meta. Tournaments are better when the meta is wide open. Seeing mirror match after mirror match with a game that has 50 some different models and hundreds of pilots and upgrades is boring. Going to a regional and facing the same list over and over again is boring.

If half the regional allow it and the other half don't, it's bad for the competitive playerbase (seeing as how they aren't all on even footings).

As for being a game, sure it is, but at a level where many of the competitors invest a lot of time and money in travel and expenses to attend, and right or wrong they deserve consistency in the rulings (which it appears isn't going to happen).

 

Anyway, down the rabbit hole we go.......

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

14 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

The whole card interaction system is based on a kind of legalese interpretation of doing exactly what the cards say to do regardless of what interactions might have been intended. The idea is to make the interactions as clear as possible, which is a terrific goal, but if you're going to do things that way and you have a large competitive scene, it becomes really important that your devs are quick to clarify those muddy (or unintended and oppressive) card interactions.

Signal boost for sure.  One of the big things that leads to this kind of endless and draining debate is that the FAQ process is SO **** slow.

Rumour has it there's a reason, due to LFL's requirement of approving the FAQs before release - but I don't find that to be a good excuse.  These problems are often clear right from the first previews, months before the product comes out, and I expect (and hope) playtesters don't miss them either, so they're probably clear upwards of six months before the product hits the shelves.  That's more than enough time to issue clarificatory FAQs on things which are legitimately unclear by RAW, such as TLT/Harpooned or Rebel Fenn/Keyan Farlander etc, where either there's a fairly obvious intention, but RAW doesn't match, or it's not clear what the intention is and RAW is arguable.

The thing that causes the most angst in this community is waiting 6 months to a year to find out how the designers intended an unclear interaction to function.

[Parravon 5,217]

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

The trouble with common sense is that its super uncommon and very few people can agree on what the sense part is.

Dude, that couldn't be more accurate.  

[theBitterFig 11,598]

7 hours ago, Ralgon said:

If half the regional allow it and the other half don't, it's bad for the competitive playerbase (seeing as how they aren't all on even footings).

If half allow it and half don't, that points at a mechanic which is broken-powerful, and that too is bad for a competitive playerbase.

1. Rules as Written, TrajSim/Genius works.

2. It ought to be errata'd out of the game because it's too strong.

3. If I were at TO at an event, I'd hang my hat on the ruling, call it a "soft Errata," and let folks know ahead of time that's how it'd be (barring mass protest from players).

[Orcdruid 500]

10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

3. If I were at TO at an event, I'd hang my hat on the ruling, call it a "soft Errata," and let folks know ahead of time that's how it'd be (barring mass protest from players).

It is not the TO's job to make erratas, it is the TO's job to enforce the rules. You are a judge not a legislator. However, RAW no bombs work.

"To drop a bomb, follow the steps 
below:
1. Take the [? 1] maneuver template and slide it 
between the rear guides of your ship.
2. Place the bomb token indicated on the Upgrade 
card into the play area and slide the guides of the 
token into the opposite end of the template."

All the bombs are worded the same way as Genius, '...drop the x bomb token.' The rules don't specify how to drop a bomb token, only how to drop a bomb.