Did Kylo vs Leebo ever get resolved?

[Jimbawa 122]

Yes, Leebo's ability would absolutely trigger, I agree with you there. But wouldn't the clause "When you are suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen Faceup damage card." override Leebo's choosing between 2 cards, the same way is overrides Maarek's choice between which 3 to deal? Regardless of the one he picks, the condition card forces the assigned one to be resolved instead. 

The order of events would look something like:

1. Leebo gets ISYTDS.

2. Leebo suffers a crit during an attack. 

3. ISYTDS deals the damage card, possibly bypassing shields.

4. Leebo draws another damage card and picks one of them. 

5. ISYTDS overrides Leebo's choice and forces him to suffer the assigned damage card. The other card is discarded. 

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

I would say no because ISYTDS stops interacting with Leebo once the damage card has been dealt. All conditions of ISYTDS have been resolved once Leebo is handed that card.

1. Leebo get ISYTDS
2. Leebo suffers a critical damage during an attack
3. ISYTDS deals the damage card, the specific damage card - ISYTDS is now happy that the chosen card has been dealt
4. Leebo has been dealt a faceup damage card and may now trigger and resolve his ability.

The ISYTDS condition says you have to be "dealt the chosen damage card" it doesn't say you must suffer it or be assigned it. Otherwise Determination wouldn't be able to throw the card out, and it can.

Edited January 12, 2018 by ZealuxMyr
Clarification

[Jimbawa 122]

But has ISYTDS been resolved completely? Leebo's ability would seem to interrupt being dealt the ISYTDS crit, or at least happen simultaneously. As in, he suffers the crit, he gets handed both the ISYTDS crit and the top card of his damage deck and gets to pick one of them, but he has not been finally assigned the damage card yet. It would seem to me that the ISYTDS faceup card has not been dealt and accepted, so it has not been removed from the condition card yet. The FAQ on fully resolving abilities I'm pretty sure is not very binding since we have effects like PTL and TIE/v1 that allow you to interrupt an effect (you can push for a target lock then get a free evade action before taking the stress from pushing), or the more controversial TLT and harpooned condition. If TLT had to be completely resolved before possibly triggering harpooned, it would never happen and be a non-issue. 

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

ISYTDS only instructs the damage card to be dealt. It does not instruct the damage card to be suffered. Thus Leebo's ability to draw an additional damage card after being dealt a faceup damage card gives him the opportunity to suffer a different card than he was dealt.

Dealt does not equal suffer/assigned and ISYTDS only instructs the player to deal the card.

Edited January 12, 2018 by ZealuxMyr

[Jimbawa 122]

Leebo's ability is not resolved after being dealt a faceup card though. That I think is the difference in our line of thinking. He gets to look at a second crit card at the same time that he would be dealt the card from ISYTDS, meaning that ISYTDS has not been resolved previously and is being resolved concurrently. With the condition card still being in play, that to me would seem to indicate that ISYTDS would override Leebo. 

It might not be a popular reading going by the thread history, but I can certainly see how the judge came to his conclusion. 

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

But, if you read Leebo's pilot ability as written, Leebo cannot trigger his ability unless he is "dealt a faceup Damage card" 

Leebo: "When you are dealt a faceup Damage card, draw 1 additional Damage card, choose 1 to resolve, and discard the other."

ISYTDS: "When you suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup Damage card."

Again, all ISYTDS does is deal the faceup Damage card. Leebo cannot trigger his pilot ability unless he has been "dealt" a Damage card.

In order for your interpretation to work Leebo's ability would have to say: "When you would be dealt a faceup Damage card, instead draw 1 additional Damage card, choose 1 to be dealt, and discard the other." If Leebo was worded in this way, then you'd be forced to take the ISYTDS Damage card rather than resolve Leebo's ability. But, as I hope I've made clear by now, Leebo's ability cannot be triggered until a faceup damage card is dealt (past tense) to him - which satisfies the only requirements of ISYTDS, the appropriate Damage card is dealt. It doesn't have to be assigned. It doesn't have to be resolved. It doesn't have to be suffered. It only has to be dealt.

[theBitterFig 11,598]

44 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

Yes, Leebo's ability would absolutely trigger, I agree with you there. But wouldn't the clause "When you are suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen Faceup damage card." override Leebo's choosing between 2 cards, the same way is overrides Maarek's choice between which 3 to deal? Regardless of the one he picks, the condition card forces the assigned one to be resolved instead. 

The order of events would look something like:

1. Leebo gets ISYTDS.

2. Leebo suffers a crit during an attack. 

3. ISYTDS deals the damage card, possibly bypassing shields.

4. Leebo draws another damage card and picks one of them. 

5. ISYTDS overrides Leebo's choice and forces him to suffer the assigned damage card. The other card is discarded. 

There's literally nothing in the actual text of ISYTDS which indicates that #5 would take place.  ISYTDS stops at #3, when it deals you the face-up card.

Edited January 12, 2018 by theBitterFig
plurality

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

@theBitterFig, thank you!

ISYTDS would have to say something like: "When you suffer critical damage during an attack, suffer the chosen Damage card instead of suffering critical damage normally." In order for #5 to even take place.

[Jimbawa 122]

Just now, theBitterFig said:

There's literally nothing in the actual text of ISYTDS which indicates that #5 would take place.  ISYTDS stops at #3, when it deals you the face-up cards.

It's actually the same text that makes step 3 occur. ISYTDS deals the card. Deals, but has not been dealt. Leebo intercepts this card, chooses another card and resolves his pilot ability before ISYTDS has resolved. If he picks the other card, the ISYTDS card has not been dealt yet. And as Leebo just suffered critical damage from an attack, and the damage card is still attached to the condition card we are at a point where we either 1. need to finish resolving ISYTDS, overriding Leebo's choice, or 2. are at an illegal gamestate where a different crit was suffered while a card was and remains assigned to ISYTDS.

[theBitterFig 11,598]

3 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

It's actually the same text that makes step 3 occur. ISYTDS deals the card. Deals, but has not been dealt. Leebo intercepts this card, chooses another card and resolves his pilot ability before ISYTDS has resolved. If he picks the other card, the ISYTDS card has not been dealt yet. And as Leebo just suffered critical damage from an attack, and the damage card is still attached to the condition card we are at a point where we either 1. need to finish resolving ISYTDS, overriding Leebo's choice, or 2. are at an illegal gamestate where a different crit was suffered while a card was and remains assigned to ISYTDS.

Incorrect.

Leebo cannot trigger until after a card has been dealt.  He's dealt the ISYTDS crit, but similar to a ship with either Integrated Astromech or Determination, he just discards that specific damage card.

*edit* he doesn't actually have to discard it... I can see keeping PS 0 over a Direct Hit.  But still.

Edited January 12, 2018 by theBitterFig

[Jimbawa 122]

Your timing of the abilities is wrong. 

His ability does not trigger after being dealt, but while the card is being dealt. After the card has been dealt, he has missed his opportunity to use his pilot ability. Both ISYTDS and the new crit are in a pool to choose from before finally being dealt to Leebo. ISYTDS, since it has not been resolved or dealt to the ship yet would then supercede Leebo's choice. 

[thespaceinvader 17,568]

1 minute ago, Jimbawa said:

Your timing of the abilities is wrong. 

His ability does not trigger after being dealt, but while the card is being dealt. After the card has been dealt, he has missed his opportunity to use his pilot ability. Both ISYTDS and the new crit are in a pool to choose from before finally being dealt to Leebo. ISYTDS, since it has not been resolved or dealt to the ship yet would then supercede Leebo's choice. 

This is just wrong.

ISYTDS deals Leebo the crit.

ISYTDS Is done.

Leebo having been dealt the crit, activates her pilot ability.

 

There's no question of this by RAW, only people who are failing to read correctly.

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

There's no question of this by RAW, only people who are failing to read correctly.

Bingo.

[Maui. 2,815]

Even if the condition card is still in play, I don't see how it overrides Leebo. There is nothing to suggest that ISYTDS does more than specify which faceup card is dealt, which shouldn't interfere with resolving Leebo's ability. After Leebo gets resolved, the specified card was still dealt as required and it is now either on Leebo or discarded, so there's still no card left on ISYTDS and everything has been resolved. 

[Jimbawa 122]

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

ISYTDS deals Leebo the crit.

ISYTDS Is done.

Leebo having been dealt the crit, activates her pilot ability.

This timing is incorrect, RAW. You're basically saying some effect needs to happen that you then go back in time to change. You have personally argued against such effects during the TS/ATC interactions, so I'd ask what has changed your mind regarding such timings?

This reading breaks neither time travel, nor illegal game states; That Leebo's pilot ability triggers in the middle of ISYTDS, leaving ISYTDS to finish resolving after her ability. The ISYTDS crit is not dealt to her, but to the pool of cards she gets to choose from. The ISYTDS card must hit her card and must override her choice by the wording on the condition. Where it can then be discarded with determination. 

[Jimbawa 122]

Just now, nexttwelveexits said:

Even if the condition card is still in play, I don't see how it overrides Leebo. There is nothing to suggest that ISYTDS does more than specify which faceup card is dealt, which shouldn't interfere with resolving Leebo's ability. After Leebo gets resolved, the specified card was still dealt as required and it is now either on Leebo or discarded, so there's still no card left on ISYTDS and everything has been resolved. 

Because it would have to be discarded, not dealt during the course of Leebo's ability. So it was prevented from being dealt, which the FAQ for ISYTDS overrides. 

[Maui. 2,815]

 

1 minute ago, Jimbawa said:

The ISYTDS card must hit her card and must override her choice by the wording on the condition. Where it can then be discarded with determination. 

There is nothing on the condition that specifies that the dealt faceup damage card cannot be discarded.

[Jimbawa 122]

Just now, nexttwelveexits said:

There is nothing on the condition that specifies that the dealt faceup damage card cannot be discarded.

The problem being that it is not the dealt card until after the selection for Leebo's ability has been made. So after Leebo's choice, the condition still forces the ISYTDS crit to be dealt instead. 

[theBitterFig 11,598]

Just now, Jimbawa said:

The problem being that it is not the dealt card until after the selection for Leebo's ability has been made. So after Leebo's choice, the condition still forces the ISYTDS crit to be dealt instead. 

Incorrect.

Leebo is 100% dealt the ISYTDS crit.

He looks at this and another crit.  Then, he gets to make a choice: suffer the effects of one, and discard the other.  Leebo is not different from any other ship which is dealt a crit and able to discard it.  There is a difference between being dealt a crit, and suffering its effects.  Chewie turns them face down.  Determination discards them.

[Maui. 2,815]

 

Just now, Jimbawa said:

The problem being that it is not the dealt card until after the selection for Leebo's ability has been made. So after Leebo's choice, the condition still forces the ISYTDS crit to be dealt instead. 

That doesn't make any sense. How could Leebo's ability have activated if the card hasn't been dealt to him yet?

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

8 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

The problem being that it is not the dealt card until after the selection for Leebo's ability has been made. So after Leebo's choice, the condition still forces the ISYTDS crit to be dealt instead. 

Please. Read. Leebo's. Card.

Leebo's ability requires the Damage card in question to be two things: faceup and dealt.

If the card is not dealt, Leebo cannot trigger his ability.

[Jimbawa 122]

1 minute ago, nexttwelveexits said:

That doesn't make any sense. How could Leebo's ability have activated if the card hasn't been dealt to him yet?

Leebo's ability triggers while the card is being dealt, not after. That is to say it happens during but before the final resolution of the ISYTDS effect. That's the difference between abilities that resolve "When..." vs. "After..." and Leebo's is solidly in the former category. Leebo's ability must and only occurs after seeing she will be dealt a faceup card, but before it is actually dealt to her. 

6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Leebo is 100% dealt the ISYTDS crit.

I agree here, but as the final result because of how her ability must be resolved. 

 

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

He looks at this and another crit.  Then, he gets to make a choice: suffer the effects of one, and discard the other.  Leebo is not different from any other ship which is dealt a crit and able to discard it.

This is also completely fine. I agree 100% that this step happens, but at a timing earlier than you are implying. 

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

There is a difference between being dealt a crit, and suffering its effects.  Chewie turns them face down.  Determination discards them.

Again, no complaint here. This is all 100% accurate. The difference being these happen after the card has been dealt, not before. 

[theBitterFig 11,598]

Chewie and Determination use the same f'ing "when" language as Leebo.

Like the others, Leebo tells you what to do with a card you have been dealt.  Maybe you suffer its effects.  Maybe you discard it.

The card. Has. Been. Dealt.

[Maui. 2,815]

There is nothing about ISYTDS that suggests that its faceup damage card cannot be discarded by a pilot ability.

 

Even if your interpretation is right and this means that the card never finished the action of being 'dealt,' it was still discarded and ISYTDS is therefore also discarded. It can't be placed on Leebo without being dealt there, and if it's dealt there then Leebo's ability can discard it.

[ZealuxMyr 1,944]

Do you also agree that ISYTDS does not include any actual text saying that the chosen card must be assigned/suffered as well as dealt?

Because if you do then I think this conversation is over, as you've agreed to every point made by your opposition while simultaneously refusing to admit you're wrong.

--

ISYTDS instructs a specific card to be dealt.

When the specific card is dealt Leebo can draw an additional card, chose 1, and discard the other.

Even if Leebo chooses the additional card ISYTDS is still satisfied as the specific card was dealt - as evidenced by the fact that Leebo had the opportunity to trigger and resolve his ability.

Edited January 12, 2018 by ZealuxMyr