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Shadow345

Could Armada implement a Holdo hyper ram?

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Could it work? Sure. 

Should a hyperspace ram exist in Armada? That’s a better question.

If the answer to that question is yes, then how do you do it without ruining the game the way Holdo’s maneuver ruined that scene for many viewers?

Games should never incorporate new mechanics that ignore or violate the core mechanics of the game. The core of Armada is ship-to-ship combat, and all of the attacks are dependent on range and line of sight. A hyperspace ram would be inherently powerful, so it needs to be explicitly limited to be balanced.

I would start by making it a unique, factionless card (not Vice Admiral Holdo.) Then it needs to be dependent on range and line of sight. I would restrict the range to long range only, with line of sight from the front firing arc to the target. 

The next question is how much damage should be done? Thematically both ships should be destroyed regardless of size, but that would not be game balanced. I would roll a bunch of black dice that can’t be modified by either player. 6 is a good number. Let the hyperspace ram ignore shields, and give it enough dice to destroy an ISD if everything comes up with double results. Deal the total damage, but don’t resolve any critical effects. 

I would prohibit the hyperspace ram from being used by flotillas to force the player using it to give up more points to make it work.

Speaking of points, how much should a hyperspace ram cost? I recommend nothing, but award the opponent double points for the ship using the ram.

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Personally, I don't think it belongs because it can skew points distributions radically. If it were to enter the game, I think it should only be allowable within a larger campaign and not a tournament-style match. Most importantly, though, is that it belongs in the inevitable sequel-trilogy version of the game with other campaign-specific elements like Active Tracking (which would be one First Order exclusive campaign ability, as the kamikazi would be one Resistance exclusive ability).

To keep things fair and prevent players from skewing their points distributions into cheap suicide ships, the maneuver should only be allowed when the Resistance player has only one ship remaining, and is a larger-base ship with the Commander aboard. Using the tactic would require having the remaining enemy ships in arc and would merely force a draw instead of a loss for campaign purposes.

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First, add the MC85 to the game.

Second, make the Raddus title.

Third, make the title read "At the end of any round past 2, remove this ship from play to remove an opponents ship in your front arc of equal or less points value from play. Both ships are counted as destroyed.

Fourth, make the MC85 cost 10 points more than a naked ISD.

Fifth, profit.

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This whole thread is a spoiler so I don't think spoiler alerts are needed...but spoiler alert:

 

Having watched the movie a second time, while it did major damage to the Supremacy, it didn't outright destroy it. Hux and Kylo were able to look out and see the "wing" section knocked off but Supremacy is such a big ship it was still able to launch landing parties, etc, and I imagine was what they went back to after Crait.

So what if the card was something like "all ships in the front arc within long range suffer hull damage equal to the remaining hull value of this ship, this ship is destroyed". That way you could kamikaze your small ships into something bigger without killing them out right.

(I don't actually this is a good idea, but that's how it would make sense to me to implement"

Edited by Wired4War

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People will argue the hyperspace ram issue to death until its nerfed in the lore. Logically if we've never seen the maneuver before it clearly only works under extremely rare situations. If there's one thing I appreciate about Star Trek fans more then Star Wars fans, is that no matter how much they hate something, they will still try and figure out how it works.

There's also a million reasons why it happened the way it did. All of the First Order ships may have diverted power from shields to engines leaving themselves exposed. Kamikazes doesnt work well in industrialized warfare where your enemy has all the industry and you're barely bringing capital ships into the fleet so the rebels definitely couldn't have employed this tactic.

Lets also make this clear from the get go. Just because the Raddus is as proportional to the Supremacy as a Nebulon is to an ISD, it doesnt mean a Nebulon would necessarily have the same effect. The Raddus has a lot of mass that a Nebulon doesnt, which means a lot more material to tear through enemy vessels. Sure a Nebulon undertaking a hyperspace hammer ram may do damage to an ISD its unlikely it would do significant damage. 

I don't think adding this to the game would ruin it if done correctly but it couldn't be like in the movie. Such a ram could only damage enemy vessels not destroy them, that would be OP. 

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If you were insistent on implementing it... have it work like the hyper spacing out where you discard your dial and not reveal. Then, you have to survive to end turn. In between rounds it would kick off. I would say you do damage to the hull of what you hit equal to your remaining hull. 

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6 hours ago, Shadow345 said:

It is possible.

 

Deal damage to all ships in arc of a ship then remove that ship from play.

 

Like an upgrade card. Most likely Admiral Holdo as an officer card herself.

FTFY 

The rest of the wording is up to you but I had problems imaging which arc would be that from a removed ship.

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I hope in the book / lore they explain that it only worked because the Raddus didn't have enough fuel to make the jump, and Holdo was guessing on whether or not she had the exact amount of fuel to make the manoeuvre work out of desperation.

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2 hours ago, D503 said:

I hope in the book / lore they explain that it only worked because the Raddus didn't have enough fuel to make the jump, and Holdo was guessing on whether or not she had the exact amount of fuel to make the manoeuvre work out of desperation.

I would imagine they'll have to explain it, because of nerd rage. But I think there's a fairly simple explanation - it's incredibly, incredibly inaccurate. Holdo only pulled it off because of a perfect set of circumstances.

 

The Supremacy is about 60,000 meters wide. Holdo hit it about a third of the way down the starboard "wing", so estimate about 10,000 meters off of dead center (I think it's safe to assume she was aiming for a head-on collision to maximize damage). That right there is a very, VERY large margin of error. A Resurgent-class Star Destroyer is about 3,000 meters long, so even with three stacked nose-to-nose and attacking from the side, there's still a chance you would miss (and that's only considering yaw. . .add in pitch and you're more likely to miss). And if you do miss, you haven't calculated an actual jump through hyperspace, so chances are good you're going to collide with a stellar body and your ship will still be destroyed, having done no damage.

 

So if you wanted to incorporate it into Armada, you'd have to remove the friendly ship (counted as destroyed), and somehow have an extremely, extremely small chance of succeeding. Choose a target hull zone as per usual, and if you somehow succeed, destroy the target ship and any ship within Range 5 of the opposite hull zone.

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Disclaimer: despite what i see as plot or continuity discrepancies, i enjoyed TLJ.

Hyperspace has been established to be accurate though to me at least. Near perfect formations entering hyperspace and exiting in near perfect formation requires accuracy.

Blindfold a bunch of people and tell them to walk a straight line forward and theyll end up in a different formation when they reach the wall at the far end of the room.

If hyperspace was inaccurate why bother with precise calculations!?! Just point vessel in general direction and hope to god youll arrive in one piece, there would be no use for the calculations cause they wouldnt matter after entering hyperspace.

No, i cant see accuracy as the reason for hyperspace ramming not being a thing.

Now theyve opened this can of worms, they cant shut it.

A basic tenant is that if we observe something as happening, it can be recreated. We might observe the happening wrongly, i.e. it wasnt a hyperspace ram, rather a LS ram, but after time experimenting it can be recreated.

Im sure theyll come up with a reason that will explain why it isnt used often, and ill accept that reason as long as it has a inkling of sense to it.

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I see a way to introduce It: Instead of shooting with the ship, you may execute a hyper ram. The first ship in the front of you suffers as many hull Point damage as your ship has left. Then remove your ship from play. (by front i mean the territory Between Two lines extended from your side of the ship, paralel with the sides, in the ships front arc). So you spent the activation with aligning, then a herioc exodus. Damage is limited, but can come handy sometimes.

Do I wish for such a thing? Im not sure...

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4 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

 

Disclaimer: despite what i see as plot or continuity discrepancies, i enjoyed TLJ.

Hyperspace has been established to be accurate though to me at least. Near perfect formations entering hyperspace and exiting in near perfect formation requires accuracy.

Blindfold a bunch of people and tell them to walk a straight line forward and theyll end up in a different formation when they reach the wall at the far end of the room.

If hyperspace was inaccurate why bother with precise calculations!?! Just point vessel in general direction and hope to god youll arrive in one piece, there would be no use for the calculations cause they wouldnt matter after entering hyperspace.

No, i cant see accuracy as the reason for hyperspace ramming not being a thing.

Now theyve opened this can of worms, they cant shut it.

A basic tenant is that if we observe something as happening, it can be recreated. We might observe the happening wrongly, i.e. it wasnt a hyperspace ram, rather a LS ram, but after time experimenting it can be recreated.

Im sure theyll come up with a reason that will explain why it isnt used often, and ill accept that reason as long as it has a inkling of sense to it.

Not disagreeing but is fun to me the precise calculations are linked to possobke collisions. I will thank the guarantee of arriving in one piece but I also doubt I would crash with something. To me the problem would be when I should stop. I mean, one second more or less at light speed (or whatever, that topic always confused me in star was universe) and I will never reach my destination. It would be something like:

"Hyperspace out!"

"Sir, it seems we pass through our destination"

"Dammit! Let's try again. Hyperspace in! Hyerspace out! Did we arrive now?"

"Nope. I suggest hyperspace in and hyper out."

"Ok. Hyperspace in and hyper out! Now? "

"No. Let's try hyperspace in-out"

"Oh ****. Hyperspace in-out"

"We failed again. Would work if we, you know, just move the pull up and down quickly?"

 

Hyperspace travel would be impracticable. 

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7 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

 

Disclaimer: despite what i see as plot or continuity discrepancies, i enjoyed TLJ.

Hyperspace has been established to be accurate though to me at least. Near perfect formations entering hyperspace and exiting in near perfect formation requires accuracy.

Blindfold a bunch of people and tell them to walk a straight line forward and theyll end up in a different formation when they reach the wall at the far end of the room.

If hyperspace was inaccurate why bother with precise calculations!?! Just point vessel in general direction and hope to god youll arrive in one piece, there would be no use for the calculations cause they wouldnt matter after entering hyperspace.

No, i cant see accuracy as the reason for hyperspace ramming not being a thing.

Now theyve opened this can of worms, they cant shut it.

A basic tenant is that if we observe something as happening, it can be recreated. We might observe the happening wrongly, i.e. it wasnt a hyperspace ram, rather a LS ram, but after time experimenting it can be recreated.

Im sure theyll come up with a reason that will explain why it isnt used often, and ill accept that reason as long as it has a inkling of sense to it.

I agree. I take it as a combination of poor manueverability and **** command. Everyone in the Resistance realized what she was doing a good while before she did it. She was ballparking it, which you normally don't do with hyperspace, but the engines still have a charge up time, which we've seen in every Star Wars. You could get the **** out of the way fairly easily...unless you're an incompetent idiot who got your position via nepotism. Enter Hux, who's response is "SHOOT MOAR!" instead of "TURN A LITTLE BIT!" This is complicated by the fact that the Supremacy is just so huge. It's one **** of a giant target that probably can't manuever that well. It also happens to have fairly thin wings, so I can buy the Raddus punching through. The Death Star was a solid mass, hence hyper ramming it wouldn't work.

All these little details have plausible enough explanations. They are also largely irrelevant to the scene. Johnson's filmmaking is all about the emotion of the moment. This one was all about failure, desperation, and sacrifice, which he hammered home quite effectively.

To bring us back to the topic at hand, though, this will never have any kind of Armada implementation. Ever.

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21 hours ago, Wired4War said:

This whole thread is a spoiler so I don't think spoiler alerts are needed...but spoiler alert:

 

Having watched the movie a second time, while it did major damage to the Supremacy, it didn't outright destroy it. Hux and Kylo were able to look out and see the "wing" section knocked off but Supremacy is such a big ship it was still able to launch landing parties, etc, and I imagine was what they went back to after Crait.

So what if the card was something like "all ships in the front arc within long range suffer hull damage equal to the remaining hull value of this ship, this ship is destroyed". That way you could kamikaze your small ships into something bigger without killing them out right.

(I don't actually this is a good idea, but that's how it would make sense to me to implement"

This idea (hull point of ship) is what i think would work

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