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Crimsonwarlock

Dubs 11 Poe-Han

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Game 1 versus Fenn/Thweek/Talonbane: 

Newer player I think. He just started playing the list. We flew very casual, but I wouldn’t consider this game something to help determine Han/Poe’s competiveness.

 

Game 2 Vader/Vessery/Omega Leader: he gave himself initiative even though he had PS11 Vader. Anyways, killed Vader because of that. After that killed Vessery after he misplayed and put him on a rock. Omega Leader was pretty easy after that. 

Game 3 Three Deltas with 2 Ions/1 Tractor: Took Han through the rocks and juked them like I like doing. No way I was going to take Poe through the rocks with the cannons. Poe took Pot shots while Han took Range one shots. Killed them fairly easily. If my opponent chose X/7’s it would have been a lot harder.

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Played @Crimsonwarlock last night. He ran Miranda/Poe with 97 Points. Dice had an impact on the game. But big difference was Han can shoot before Miranda and move after her compared to how Dash would play in the match up.

 

This list has been giving me flashbacks. I made this thread awhile back before Adv Optics came out.

 

 

Edited by Tbetts94

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On 1/10/2018 at 6:30 AM, Tbetts94 said:

Played @Crimsonwarlock last night. He ran Miranda/Poe with 97 Points. Dice had an impact on the game. But big difference was Han can shoot before Miranda and move after her compared to how Dash would play in the match up.

 

This list has been giving me flashbacks. I made this thread awhile back before Adv Optics came out.

 

 

I got use Experimental Interface to slam bomb clusters on to Han for 5 damage that game (I didn't like the game was looking for me before that, your approach was pretty solid).  EI is rather brutal.  I even slammed into a rock for that bomb drop.

 

That said PS11 Han beats dash and matches well vs Nym (particularly G-chip versions)

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2 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

That's a hot take, unsupported by facts.

It may be a bit exaggerated, but I feel that Poe needs a second source of damage mitigation after his focus token.

 

Currently the two best ways of providing this are R2D2 and Intensity+ Comm Relay. (Prior to these combos, the go-to source for this mitigation was R5-P9)

The second set of damage mitigation takes Poe's defensive profile to the point where a single ship really can't penetrate his defenses in a reasonable amount of time.  If you don't kill him early, a single ship in end game may not be able to kill him at all.

Poe's chassis doesn't allow for stacking strong attacking upgrades that make him a threat you can't ignore.  Without the second level of defence, it is a viable option to leave Poe for last to kill.

 

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18 minutes ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

It may be a bit exaggerated, but I feel that Poe needs a second source of damage mitigation after his focus token.

 

Currently the two best ways of providing this are R2D2 and Intensity+ Comm Relay. (Prior to these combos, the go-to source for this mitigation was R5-P9)

The second set of damage mitigation takes Poe's defensive profile to the point where a single ship really can't penetrate his defenses in a reasonable amount of time.  If you don't kill him early, a single ship in end game may not be able to kill him at all.

Poe's chassis doesn't allow for stacking strong attacking upgrades that make him a threat you can't ignore.  Without the second level of defence, it is a viable option to leave Poe for last to kill.

 

Range 3 with autothrusters and Poe's focus ability is a very good damage mitigation ability, barrel rolling and boosting out of arc are also good damage mitigation.  Black One shedding two target locks a round is also good damage mitigation. (Nothing makes me happier when an opponent wastes a target lock action on Poe). 

If someone leaves Poe to the end, they've probably lost (assuming I've done enough damage with my freighter). I can run forever with Poe if its a turret, if its an arc bound ship, I'll get behind it and kill it.

Anecdotally from my personal experience, I've been successful with bb8 Poe left for last. I've also been successful with the freighter if my opponent chose to take out Poe first.

 

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1 hour ago, Tbetts94 said:

Definitely leaving the list packed in my bag. I love running Han. Going to try that double Falcon list next week too that made cut in Chicago. See if it was luck/player skill or if there was something to it.

Not pulling it’s weight?

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I’m planning to run Poe and Han for a couple of weeks, and in a regionals practice tournament next weekend. 

I’ve been playing Corran and Chewie recently so I was looking for something semi-meta that I would be familiar with. 

Tempted by going BB8 Poe to free up more points for Han, although I usually go regen. 

Probably need a decent bid to combat Kylo and other Poe squads as well. PS race is a pain. 

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Hey I'm a semi-casual player, I've decided that this list sounds pretty fun and I'm planning to take it to my local regionals this weekend. I'm generally a competent player but my weakness has always been knowledge; of the meta, of how to fly my list optimally against different other lists, even more basic stuff like rock placement and setup and openings, simply because I don't have time to practice 100pt formats or sticks to a single list type much (past month and a half around xmas my xwing time has been taken up entirely by an escalation league). Also list indecisiveness!

I used to enjoy flying relatively simple jousting lists with a few extra tricks (don't require too much specialised knowledge), but I've gotten bored with that in the last couple of store tournaments I've played in for various reasons. Anyway, would anyone mind offering me some basic advice as a starting point so I can approach flying this list with some degree of basic competence? My hope is for a solid mid-tier finish and to enjoy flying with reasonable confidence on the day.

Obviously PS11 and boosting (into an asteroid field etc) is key, I like @Tbetts94's generic advice to juke and kite with Han as a general strategy (I'm assuming by this you mean to look as if you're going in one direction then break off in an unexpected one and run or swing around behind them, right?) And I have some experience with BB8 Black One autos Poe ( a defensive monster especially at r3 or out of arc, and bb8 is nice) but I found him getting a shield chipped away here and there, or in a single joust, then when he runs and return he's not a big threat any more - too squishy in a 2 ship list for me, and high skill required for an all day tournament to keep him safe. But I think I can fly R2D2 Poe ok, being cautious, striking at the right time and running away to regen when necessary. Basically agree with @Crimsonwarlock's assessment above. Poe can take solid potshots at r3 adn Han can be slippery at closer range.

Anyway this is all theoretically nice, but it's when I sit down at a table that I realise I have no idea what I'm actually doing. Anyone mind hitting me with some quick tips about things like:

  • Asteroid and ship placement
  • Your goal with your initial movement
  • Basic 'game plan' with each ship and squad as a whole (e.g. Han get kind of close and personal, juke around, kite them into rocks - evade + c3po at closer range when under fire if boost won't help... and when do you bank Reys? Just at misc. opportunities? etc)
  •  Some basic meta matchup game plans

All advice super appreciated! Going to spend all of today practising flying this list (by myself and at a casual evening tonight) and any and all advice would be like gold dust to me, cheers :)

 

Edited by Arctitian

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@Arctitian

You want spread out, large rocks for this list.  Large rocks gets you better defence rolls, speed out gives you room to arc-dodge.

Your starting goal is to build Rey tokens (you are in no hurry to engage the enemy).  Then You wanna set up a scenario where the enemy is chasing one ship with the other following you will prefer Poe chasing and Han leading. (Unless they have several attacks, then let Poe lead and Han chase).

 

You can make either ship nearly immune to single attacks in a round (Han has 3po+ evade, Poe does Poe stuff).  Pick an enemy ship and make sure you can land a kill in 2-3 rounds.  Pay attention to the ranges the enemy can fight well at and don't be there.  PS11 plus boost is nearly the final word in range control.

 

 

 

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Excellent thank you! That all makes perfect sense.

Quote

Pay attention to the ranges the enemy can fight well at and don't be there

Thanks, that's a good point, that might sound obvious but it's often a question of which of the many 'obvious' things do you actually focus on. (So you're saying don't be at range 1 of a double tap ghost haha?) ;)

Quote

(Unless they have several attacks, then let Poe lead and Han chase).

Again, an excellent point I hadn't really considered fully. Autos and Poe focus are infinite use! Makes total sense :)

Thank you very much. That gives me a very useful starting point for learning the list. Learning occurs through trial and error and experimentation and theory, but it doesn't mean everyone has to do that on an individual basis... learn what you can from the experts is an effective and time-efficient way to learn... something solid to build on. Much appreciated!

-Arctitian

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11 hours ago, Arctitian said:

Hey I'm a semi-casual player, I've decided that this list sounds pretty fun and I'm planning to take it to my local regionals this weekend. I'm generally a competent player but my weakness has always been knowledge; of the meta, of how to fly my list optimally against different other lists, even more basic stuff like rock placement and setup and openings, simply because I don't have time to practice 100pt formats or sticks to a single list type much (past month and a half around xmas my xwing time has been taken up entirely by an escalation league). Also list indecisiveness!

I used to enjoy flying relatively simple jousting lists with a few extra tricks (don't require too much specialised knowledge), but I've gotten bored with that in the last couple of store tournaments I've played in for various reasons. Anyway, would anyone mind offering me some basic advice as a starting point so I can approach flying this list with some degree of basic competence? My hope is for a solid mid-tier finish and to enjoy flying with reasonable confidence on the day.

Obviously PS11 and boosting (into an asteroid field etc) is key, I like @Tbetts94's generic advice to juke and kite with Han as a general strategy (I'm assuming by this you mean to look as if you're going in one direction then break off in an unexpected one and run or swing around behind them, right?) And I have some experience with BB8 Black One autos Poe ( a defensive monster especially at r3 or out of arc, and bb8 is nice) but I found him getting a shield chipped away here and there, or in a single joust, then when he runs and return he's not a big threat any more - too squishy in a 2 ship list for me, and high skill required for an all day tournament to keep him safe. But I think I can fly R2D2 Poe ok, being cautious, striking at the right time and running away to regen when necessary. Basically agree with @Crimsonwarlock's assessment above. Poe can take solid potshots at r3 adn Han can be slippery at closer range.

Anyway this is all theoretically nice, but it's when I sit down at a table that I realise I have no idea what I'm actually doing. Anyone mind hitting me with some quick tips about things like:

  • Asteroid and ship placement
  • Your goal with your initial movement
  • Basic 'game plan' with each ship and squad as a whole (e.g. Han get kind of close and personal, juke around, kite them into rocks - evade + c3po at closer range when under fire if boost won't help... and when do you bank Reys? Just at misc. opportunities? etc)
  •  Some basic meta matchup game plans

All advice super appreciated! Going to spend all of today practising flying this list (by myself and at a casual evening tonight) and any and all advice would be like gold dust to me, cheers :)

 

Pretty much everything that @Crimsonwarlock said. How comfortable are you flying through rocks with a large based ship? One tactic I use is I drag my opponent through the rocks taking advantage of the hard 1 and the ability to go 3 Bank/4 straight boost out and gain position. Much of my Han play comes from watching Paul Heaver’s 2014 Worlds run.

 

 

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Thanks @Tbetts94!

30 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

How comfortable are you flying through rocks with a large based ship?

 

Not too bad. I can usually judge whether hard turns will get me clear of an asteroid next to me (though usually they won't, it's surprising how little distance you go forward even with a hard 2 on the Falcon) and I'm fine with straight moves... banks are a bit tricky but if I play it extra safe I'm usually ok.

I've watched that Heaver final a couple of times before - definitely a classic! Shows how a single move - and positioning - can be so crucial in xwing.

Quote

One tactic I use is I drag my opponent through the rocks taking advantage of the hard 1 and the ability to go 3 Bank/4 straight boost out and gain position.

Yes I think you mentioned that earlier in the thread. Is this an early game move? Sort of during early positioning, you head towards them, inviting them to target Han over Poe, then veer off into asteroids once they start heading in your direction? And where would Poe be in this situation - coming into the asteroids from a different angle or something, keeping range? Also, @Crimsonwarlock suggested fairly spread out asteroids - do you then create a denser field on one side to drag people into? Cheers.

I had a couple of games this evening. One thing I learned was that you really have to be kind of aggressive to do damage, especially if Poe is running (which is why getting them following Han is the ideal situation, of course), and rely on damage mitigation to weather some fire and try for some quick early (round 1-2) PS kills. I lost against Vessery Ryad and Quickdraw, though with some poor luck and some poor decisions, but defenders are certainly tough and require multiple shots to strip tokens. I suppose my plan would be early aggression from Han, getting in close and boosting or evading, depending, and snipe with Poe to push through some quick damage, then focus them down over the next couple of turns. Whoever comes off worse / is easier to chase runs off, the other follows... Basically it felt like my mistake was splitting forces too early, rather than  after the first engagement...

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The trick here is is that you need to fly them apart, but get into range at the same time.  Some enemy lists can make this risky (particularly ones with strong reposition ability such as PTL Kylo or gunboats).  The risk being if you spread out too much, your opponent can rush one side of you formation in hopes of setting up an asymmetrical engagement.  There are certain factors that make this more difficult for your opponent.  For example if you have PS advantage and boost on both ships, you can dial conservative (slow) moves with each ship and then boost with the ship that is going to be chasing.

 

Here you can set up a situation that is bad for your opponent no matter who they choose to attack.  If they attack Han, you are able to fire with both ships (since Han is a turret) and Han is faster (large ship with open dial +boost).  If they try to take Poe, they have a another set of problems, Poe has infinite dice mods (Pilot ability + Autos) along with black one and Regen.  Its realistic that most lists simply won't have the fire power needed to kill Poe.  You'll need to be wary that many opponents will come to this realization a few rounds after dealing no damage to Poe and try to throw a reversal toward Han.  Look for opportunities to leave a hard turn plus boost open to scramble into chase position with Poe if they reverse on you.

 

As to the rocks, @Tbetts94 differing advise is just due to our play styles, while Tbetts94 may run them tight he will still place them a bit further than minimum.  The danger of flying into tight rocks is that it drastically limits the possible moves available to your ship, an opponent that knows your next move can set up some nasty kill boxes that would not be reasonable to attempt on an open field where he can't reasonably predict you maneuver and you have a boost available.

 

This is part of the reason holding a position on the edge of the board is a mixed blessing.  If you are on the edge of the board, you can't get flanked from outside the board edge, but half of your dial is unavailable.  This in turn, makes it easier to figure out where you will be.  The lesson here is that if you have two similar positions (with respect to the enemy) you want the one closer to the middle of the board.

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@Arctitian When I get on the computer later I’ll go through a response and more tactics.

 

Found this on Twitch this morning. I’ll see if the guy has any more videos and if he made the cut which is tomorrow.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/220389045

 

Here’s another video of Jack Mooney (Top 4 Worlds 2016 Jake/Han player) playing in a final at a regional.

 

https://youtu.be/ndll0sRideU

Edited by Tbetts94

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Hey @Tbetts94 and @Crimsonwarlock, thanks for all your advice! I wrote up some reflections and battle reports from my tournament this weekend, and got a bit carried away so it's too long for a forum post so here's a link to a google doc if you're interested, cheers :)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iKwQxOEIojimQBX2D1LUy3NNvceV79XehC2zjNuiFFY/edit?usp=sharing

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1 hour ago, Arctitian said:

Hey @Tbetts94 and @Crimsonwarlock, thanks for all your advice! I wrote up some reflections and battle reports from my tournament this weekend, and got a bit carried away so it's too long for a forum post so here's a link to a google doc if you're interested, cheers :)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iKwQxOEIojimQBX2D1LUy3NNvceV79XehC2zjNuiFFY/edit?usp=sharing

 

That’s hilarious that it was you that I Linked! ? I’ll read the rest here in a bit!

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Han Solo — YT-1300 46
Veteran Instincts 1
Gunner 5
Hotshot Co-pilot 4
Engine Upgrade 4
Ship Total: 60 
Poe Dameron (PS9) — T-70 X-Wing 33
Veteran Instincts 1
Flight-Assist Astromech 1
Advanced Optics 2
Autothrusters 2
Black One 1
Ship Total: 40

I played this in a 60 man regionals this weekend and went 5-1, only losing to Kanan/Fenn/Ezra.

I works perfectly against all these Imp aces, Long range scanner+Harpoon missiles, and most other lists.

I love it, and would recommend it. 

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41 minutes ago, NLJUNGBERG said:

Han Solo — YT-1300 46
Veteran Instincts 1
Gunner 5
Hotshot Co-pilot 4
Engine Upgrade 4
Ship Total: 60 
Poe Dameron (PS9) — T-70 X-Wing 33
Veteran Instincts 1
Flight-Assist Astromech 1
Advanced Optics 2
Autothrusters 2
Black One 1
Ship Total: 40

I played this in a 60 man regionals this weekend and went 5-1, only losing to Kanan/Fenn/Ezra.

I works perfectly against all these Imp aces, Long range scanner+Harpoon missiles, and most other lists.

I love it, and would recommend it. 

Is it worth not having the title on Han?

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