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How do I deal with angry opponents?

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So I recently (while ago) played in a tournament near me, and took a fleet that was absolutely awful for most things, but did one thing really well.  For context, it had a flechette raider, a raider with title, an ordnance Victory and a 200 point ISD, with no squadrons.  Most of games were predictable (forced into second player, raiders exploded, I lost)  But, for one of by games, I got first player.  My opponent flew his fighters right at my flechette raider, and then it did its thing.  He got .  .  .  Angry.  Don't know why, but he was pissed.  Later, I accidentally rolled too many dice with my ISD, and caught my self on it.  I corrected my error, but he told me I needed to spend one of my reroll abilities to fix it [If someone could tell where this is in the rules that would be great, I come for X-wing, so I'm used to that way of doing it].  I went along with it because he was scaring me, and I didn't want to fight it.  Later, he started to get confused with my stuff, so I would pull out the relevant cards and go through things one at a time [something I do in X-wing as well, and no one minds].  He got even angrier, and yelled at me (For context, he was also one of the judges and a big dude), so I stopped.  Eventually, he parked a wounded Assault frigate MKII and a Pelta at close range in the front arc of a gunnery team ISD to predictable results and forfeited the match before literally storming out of the room.  Now, I realize I was no angel and didn't do everything perfectly, but what could I have done better to prevent this outcome?  It didn't fell good, and it still doesn't, so I want to avoid it as much as possible.

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On the rules question re: incorrect numbers of dice, he is incorrect.  

There is no "punishment" or "penalty" when the incorrect amount of dice are rolled.

In fact, there's no Rule either way, however, it is almost always universally accepted that "All dice are cancelled and the roll is made again, with the correct amount of dice."

 

However, a Judge should make that call.

 

 

Secondly, I personally believe that if a judge has acted like this, then you need to take it to the Marshal/Organizer.  And potentially forwarded to FFG in regards to event integrity.

If nothing else.  You don't Judge your own games.  

This is easily one of the most disappointing things I've read happening in Armada.  If blame lies with you, its a fractional blame.  Take some solace in that.

 

And in that light, I reference the part on Unsporting Conduct.  Since, you have stated, effectively, that you felt threatened and bullied.

 

 

From the Armada Tournament regulations:

Unsporting Conduct

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden. The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsporting conduct.

 

From the FUNDAMENTAL Event Document:

Unsporting Conduct

FFG OP exists to create a fair, safe, and inclusive environment for all participants. Unsporting conduct violates one or more of these elements which are critical to the integrity of an event. Intentional or habitual violations of event integrity could result in investigation, pursuant to the FFG Organized Play Participant Suspension Policy. The marshal role holds the responsibility of being the final authority on whether unsporting conduct has occurred. The organizer is responsible for determining whether the unsporting conduct was severe enough to warrant disqualification of a participant. Unsporting conduct is not limited to occurrences which happen during an event. It can extend to the time before and after the event, as well as digital spaces. Unsporting behavior includes:
• Cheating
• Collusion
• Bribery
• Stalling
• Behaving in a manner which could be interpreted by a reasonable person as bullying, harassment, belligerent, stalking, vulgar, obscene, threatening, or hurtful
• Knowingly lying to an event leader
• Encroaching on a participant’s personal privacy or safety
• Purposely violating other behavior guidelines at a venue
• Repeatedly refusing to abide by the instructions of an event leader

Edited by Drasnighta

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9 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

On the rules question re: incorrect numbers of dice, he is incorrect.  

There is no "punishment" or "penalty" when the incorrect amount of dice are rolled.

In fact, there's no Rule either way, however, it is almost always universally accepted that "All dice are cancelled and the roll is made again, with the correct amount of dice."

 

However, a Judge should make that call.

 

 

Secondly, I personally believe that if a judge has acted like this, then you need to take it to the Marshal/Organizer.  And potentially forwarded to FFG in regards to event integrity.

If nothing else.  You don't Judge your own games.  

This is easily one of the most disappointing things I've read happening in Armada.  If blame lies with you, its a fractional blame.  Take some solace in that.

 

And in that light, I reference the part on Unsporting Conduct.  Since, you have stated, effectively, that you felt threatened and bullied.

 

 

From the Armada Tournament regulations:

Unsporting Conduct

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden. The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsporting conduct.

 

From the FUNDAMENTAL Event Document:

Unsporting Conduct

FFG OP exists to create a fair, safe, and inclusive environment for all participants. Unsporting conduct violates one or more of these elements which are critical to the integrity of an event. Intentional or habitual violations of event integrity could result in investigation, pursuant to the FFG Organized Play Participant Suspension Policy. The marshal role holds the responsibility of being the final authority on whether unsporting conduct has occurred. The organizer is responsible for determining whether the unsporting conduct was severe enough to warrant disqualification of a participant. Unsporting conduct is not limited to occurrences which happen during an event. It can extend to the time before and after the event, as well as digital spaces. Unsporting behavior includes:
• Cheating
• Collusion
• Bribery
• Stalling
• Behaving in a manner which could be interpreted by a reasonable person as bullying, harassment, belligerent, stalking, vulgar, obscene, threatening, or hurtful
• Knowingly lying to an event leader
• Encroaching on a participant’s personal privacy or safety
• Purposely violating other behavior guidelines at a venue
• Repeatedly refusing to abide by the instructions of an event leader

This is good to know, and Ultimately, I did take it up with the organizer, who is one of the nicest people I've met.  Also important here (And why I didn't do more sooner) is that his rage quit gave me a perfect game which was enough to give me first overall, weirdly enough.  For more context, there was initially another judge, but he had to leave, and we thought we could manage ourselves fairly well.  Ultimately, every other person at the tournament tried to just stay out of it (and fairly so).  The event was also not an official FFG event at all, so nothing could be done there.

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Dealing with an angry player:

First off, I'm sorry you had to experience this.  I've had my own run-ins with angry players not only in Armada but in other things, so I can relate and empathize.

How I respond tends to be driven by the setting.  You mentioned a casual tournament setting, in which case calmly calling the TO is the right thing to do.  Generally, we want to be as polite as possible, and the TO also brings in a third party that can help defuse tension.  It sounds like he was angry because his gaming experience was bad, and the right words from a TO can go a long way toward reforming a player into a good respectable member of the long-standing community.

In very casual settings, I tend to concede points to opponents in the interest of maintaining a casual setting.  If someone is really dead set in their ways or really prickly, there's always the option of avoiding them in the future. 

I also look at the way someone gets angry.  A really competitive player, but one for whom it is clear that they are just more demonstrably and visibly rankled than some others is probably going to brush it off really quickly.  That's not a kind of anger that bothers me or should really bother anyone.  It doesn't sound like that is how he was, but I wanted to throw this out there more generally because we can all have different expressions of anger and not all of it is bad really.  

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1 minute ago, Do I need a Username said:

This is good to know, and Ultimately, I did take it up with the organizer, who is one of the nicest people I've met.  Also important here (And why I didn't do more sooner) is that his rage quit gave me a perfect game which was enough to give me first overall, weirdly enough.  For more context, there was initially another judge, but he had to leave, and we thought we could manage ourselves fairly well.  Ultimately, every other person at the tournament tried to just stay out of it (and fairly so).  The event was also not an official FFG event at all, so nothing could be done there.

Its still good to know.  Its good to have on record (especially with an organiser).  Its good to have a track.

 

Now, if it never happens again, absolutely bloody fantastic.   Forget the whole thing, move on, we're good.

However, track records are something we should be at least lightly aware of.

Note that FFG doesn't...  particularily care if its at an FFG event or not.  They don't even care if its in Real Life or Online:  "Unsporting conduct is not limited to occurrences which happen during an event. It can extend to the time before and after the event, as well as digital spaces."  

But its certainly something to be aware of going forward.

 

Beyond, as you implied, ironing out your own adherance to rules and making sure you're grabbing the right amount of dice (oh, the amount of time I STILL mess that up :D ), you're doing it correctly...

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Flip the table, paint happy faces on his fleet in poorly done pink glitter spray paint,  then blow torch his fleet.

No.
Seriously don't do that.
I am not responsible for destruction, mayhem, nerd rage that might ensue.

In all seriousness,
I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience. Most Armada players pride themselves on being a friendly, open group. It is unfortunate when you have a bad experience.

I had a sort of similar situation with a quitting player here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/260338-play-etiquette-question/
 

Now I wasn't there so I'm only getting this second hand?(can never keep the hands straight). That said, from what you have said, you didn't do anything wrong in my book.

First key point: .....played in a tournament near me.....
It is a tournament, your opponent is responsible for having an idea of the different fleet permutation he could face. If he had any questions, should have asked before the match or before the event that fired him up so hard.

Second key point: Later, I accidentally rolled too many dice with my ISD, and caught my self on it.  I corrected my error.....
You caught yourself and made the effort to correct. Enough said. There isn't any rule(as others mentioned) on how to fix it, so it is between you, your opponent, and a judge if you or they feel necessary. Rule of thumb, around here at least, is to cancel the pool and roll the correct number as a new roll.

Third key point: I went along with it because he was scaring me, and I didn't want to fight it.
This is the point where you need to consider getting the actual TO involved. If you are getting scared in what should be a fairly friendly environment, the TO needs to be at least aware.

Fourth key point:  Later, he started to get confused with my stuff, so I would pull out the relevant cards and go through things one at a time . 
Exactly correct.
 

 

 

 

What could I have done better to prevent this outcome?
At the end of the day, not much. From your report, you didn't do anything wrong.
Only thing you can do is continue to be a good sport, acknowledge, correct, and learn from your mistakes, and if they want to rage quit and stomp off from their own tactical mistakes, it is best to let them go and vent elsewhere over a game of plastic pew pew ships.
 

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1 hour ago, Do I need a Username said:

..... but what could I have done better to prevent this outcome?

Honestly not much.

But if i were to nitpick based on your report, i would have a printed fleet list ready for inspection and the upgrade cards laid out with the ship cards?

1 hour ago, Do I need a Username said:

Later, he started to get confused with my stuff, so I would pull out the relevant cards and go through things one at a time [something I do in X-wing as well, and no one minds].

That is assuming when you say 'pull out the relevant cards' that they were not easily view-able by your opponent?

Otherwise, there is not much you can do to desalinize a salty player like that. 

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Always be ok with calling a judge or TO, even for little things. Having an official make a call ends the dicussion and allows you get back to enjoying your experience. 

I even call a judge over when I'm taking a game-clinching measurement because my hands get so shakey, which is paltry in comparison to being actively bullied in your game that you play for fun.

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It sounds like you sent a bully tilting. Huzzah!

Unfortunately since he was one of the rules judges it also sounds like he may be one of the more influential players in your area. It's important for gamers to "police their own" and weed out the negative players who could ruin a group. If this guy is intimidating others, then it sounds like you've got a larger problem than just what happened here.

Where was the tournament hosted? You can always talk to the shop owner about it. A good shop owner should be concerned about the gaming community in his store as problematic individual will drive away players which drives away his sales.

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29 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

This is good to know, and Ultimately, I did take it up with the organizer, who is one of the nicest people I've met.  Also important here (And why I didn't do more sooner) is that his rage quit gave me a perfect game which was enough to give me first overall, weirdly enough.  For more context, there was initially another judge, but he had to leave, and we thought we could manage ourselves fairly well.  Ultimately, every other person at the tournament tried to just stay out of it (and fairly so).  The event was also not an official FFG event at all, so nothing could be done there.

I judge in casual tournaments I play in pretty regularly and when that is the case I always loudly announce at the start that anyone who is playing me should feel free to go to the backup judge (usually @geek19) if they understandably feel uncomfortable having me take sides in a game I'm playing in. It sounds like that didn't happen, which is unfortunate.

From your account, it sounds like your opponent made some obvious mistakes and then got upset about it when there were repercussions. He tried to disadvantage you after the wrong dice situation, which should have been resolved by simply having you do-over the entire attack roll, presumably to try to help turn the game around for him. It's acceptable and understandable to be a bit frustrated when things aren't going your way. Likely he felt self-conscious at not doing so well at the time in the tournament despite being a judge and so doing poorly made him feel disappointed. What's not acceptable is bullying the other player, losing your temper at them, or trying to inflict arbitrary punishments on them for harmless and easily-reversed errors.

If you did not want to be confrontational, I'm not sure what else could really have been done on your part. You handled it just fine. If you are more comfortable being confrontational in the future, that's the kind of behavior where the first incidence or two of a **** attitude you can just shrug it off, but once it continues or the severity increases, you're justified in having a quick time out and politely asking the other player to calm down (it helps if you sympathize with the situation and then slip in the ask, like "I understand that you're frustrated about X and I would be in your shoes too, but you're getting a little hostile and if you could take it down a notch I would appreciate it. If you need a moment or two to blow off steam, I totally understand." The vast majority of decent people in the world will, when faced with a polite request that shows some sympathy but also acknowledges they're acting poorly, realize they've gone too far, feel self-conscious, and most of their anger will deflate and they'll become conciliatory and you can hopefully get along (it's important to genuinely show you're cool with them once they calm down, though - let the matter live in the past once it's been resolved). There are some total jerks out there who won't take it well, but the kind of person whose emotional brakes don't function was going to blow up on you anyways so it largely doesn't change the result so much as the timing.

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@Snipafist makes a really good point. 

I've only had a few matches where someone has gone full /tilt/ since I started playing. I think this is because one, I'm a big guy, not many people wanna start problems with someone who's bulging with what could be muscle, and two I try to keep a very friendly attitude while I play. 

If I notice that I'm getting salty from a particularly hard loss, I'll try to turn my loss into humor. "Well he's not gonna be in the next film haha" (or something else corny like that). In cases where I see my opponent is getting frustrated I try to give them an out, give them time to cool. "Hey, this is getting intense, I'm gonna go grab a soda real quick, want one?" $1 on a soda or water and a few minutes away from the table can be a big difference for someone having a bad game. 

Even during a tournament, there's usually enough time to chill if you need to. 

Edited by Darth Sanguis

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#RMB

But seriously, no. In your report, I don't see how you acted incorrectly. As many of the folks I call friends say around here, we are taking Saturdays to push plastic space ships around. This is a game, a game we obviously love. And if someone is that serious about it, the game wasn't the issue. I'm pretty sure this person gave the same reaction when his cousin bought Boardwalk and immediately put a hotel on it during the Christmas break...(Still a phalis move, but I digress...)

Play the game you love, within the rules, and have the fun you are supposed to. If you don't, the Organizer should fix the problem. 

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I dont disagree with anything that has been said here, just want to throw this out there.

Angry players are also nearly always really bad players. How is this useful? Well it means you can probably win the game with your hands tied behind your back. So at the first hint that my opponent is angry I take a look at the list and ask them for their interpretation on all the cards I know to be controversial. At this point I can make a judgement call as to whether I care about their choice or if it is important enough to contest. I find that as long as I know their dubious interpretation in advance, it can be easily prevented (see point 1, bad player).

This helps avoid me having to play against an increasingly angry player. And so that I dont do harm to the community I can explain to them why their interpretations are incorrect when it no longer has any bearing on my game and I am clearly unbiased, such that when they meet a future opponent the shock is no so great. Remember, this player has likely built a list around some dubious assumptions and its hard to hear that your list building was pointless.

Its the calm emotionally stable players that worry me, they are usually decent.

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16 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

On the rules question re: incorrect numbers of dice, he is incorrect.  

There is no "punishment" or "penalty" when the incorrect amount of dice are rolled.

In fact, there's no Rule either way, however, it is almost always universally accepted that "All dice are cancelled and the roll is made again, with the correct amount of dice."

 

However, a Judge should make that call.

 

 

Secondly, I personally believe that if a judge has acted like this, then you need to take it to the Marshal/Organizer.  And potentially forwarded to FFG in regards to event integrity.

If nothing else.  You don't Judge your own games.  

This is easily one of the most disappointing things I've read happening in Armada.  If blame lies with you, its a fractional blame.  Take some solace in that.

 

And in that light, I reference the part on Unsporting Conduct.  Since, you have stated, effectively, that you felt threatened and bullied.

 

 

From the Armada Tournament regulations:

Unsporting Conduct

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden. The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsporting conduct.

 

From the FUNDAMENTAL Event Document:

Unsporting Conduct

FFG OP exists to create a fair, safe, and inclusive environment for all participants. Unsporting conduct violates one or more of these elements which are critical to the integrity of an event. Intentional or habitual violations of event integrity could result in investigation, pursuant to the FFG Organized Play Participant Suspension Policy. The marshal role holds the responsibility of being the final authority on whether unsporting conduct has occurred. The organizer is responsible for determining whether the unsporting conduct was severe enough to warrant disqualification of a participant. Unsporting conduct is not limited to occurrences which happen during an event. It can extend to the time before and after the event, as well as digital spaces. Unsporting behavior includes:
• Cheating
• Collusion
• Bribery
• Stalling
• Behaving in a manner which could be interpreted by a reasonable person as bullying, harassment, belligerent, stalking, vulgar, obscene, threatening, or hurtful
• Knowingly lying to an event leader
• Encroaching on a participant’s personal privacy or safety
• Purposely violating other behavior guidelines at a venue
• Repeatedly refusing to abide by the instructions of an event leader

Seriously dude.... everything you type is masterfully done.   Do you even know how pleasant it is to read the stuff that you type?   

 

But yes I agree with everything Dras says above.   It's a shame when people act like that, not just in gaming, but in life.   Do your best and be kind as often as you possibly can.   

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3 hours ago, Crabbok said:

Seriously dude.... everything you type is masterfully done.   Do you even know how pleasant it is to read the stuff that you type?   

 

But yes I agree with everything Dras says above.   It's a shame when people act like that, not just in gaming, but in life.   Do your best and be kind as often as you possibly can.   

I should go back to old default answer.

“Defenestration.” ?

 

CrazyHarmfulChameleon-max-1mb.gif

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Dude. You do not have to tolerate that. I don't care how big he is. If you are intimidated by his antics (and that is not a judgment) then you should excuse yourself and find a judge. Let them know what is going on. And for those pukes that have an issue? Man. This is a game. It is not worth blowing a fuse or hurting someone (or getting hurt) or going to jail over a game. I don't play often and I don't roll in tournaments but if Inse this kind of crap boiling np I stand beside the player receiving the abuse, particularly if the guy looks like he is in trouble. My son and I play from time to time at the local store. Some of these guys get a little animated. Nothing defuses the situation like suddenly becoming outnumbered. I'm mot a huge guy but I am a vet and I know how to carry myself. Had I seen that I can guarantee his nonsense would have stopped fast. And that clown that jumped on the table? Oh **** no. Now here's the thing: if you are provoking the dude. . .can't help you there but I won't stand for having a guy beat down or intimidated over a game. Not on my watch. 

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