The Galactic Civil War - Vassal Campaign

[Undeadguy 5,749]

4 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

So regardless of changes, Rasp and imp sector patrol 2 are both still gonna be facing 2 fleets vs 1? So 2 of the 3 games played this turn are going to essentially consist entirely of running away and trying not to get wrecked, while I am the only player that doesn't get a battle this round, again?

Just want to confirm that this is what you are saying.

Correct. I don't like to make rule changes during a round because it becomes a nightmare of confusion. And I don't want to alter the board state at this point to create an advantage or disadvantage to either side because the movements have been revealed. 

[Visovics 1,675]

13 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

@MandalorianMoose @CaribbeanNinja @Visovics @BrobaFett @rasproteus @GhostofNobodyInParticular

Hey guys, I'm been thinking of some updates to the rules. 

1. Commanders, titles, and the extra cost for aces will not count towards your fleet points. So Biggs will cost 13 points. This lets you squeeze more into 500 points.
2. Objectives are reduced to 3 as normal.
3. Standby would allow fleets to move to a contested planet. So if you're ally is 1 fleet down, like Rasproteus is now, you could move a fleet to that planet and support them. 
   1. This is to encourage people to commit to battles instead of fleeing because they accidentally stumble upon 2 fleets. 
   2. I would limit 1 fleet per player to go on standby. This would effectively allow you to explore with the power of 2 fleets, but still defend your shipyard in case it gets attacked.
4. The squad value for a fleet is increased by 1.5, or remove the rule all together.
   1. If you happen to lose a lot of ships and reduce your squad value, you also won't be able to deploy those squads if you fight another battle. This is a compounding loss to a fleet, because you lose the ships AND the squads, despite the squads still being in a fleet. I'm not sure how to fix this and make it feel enjoyable and thematic. 

These changes would happen BEFORE round 6. So nothing changes right now.

Like those, but on the squads one, maybe like all overflowing squads deploy within distance 1 of the rear arc of your ships distributed evenly at the end of the status phase of round 1

[CaribbeanNinja 6,207]

I’m cool with these. 

[rasproteus 584]

Imperial squadrons are destroyed because they are short range fighters.

Unless there's a base nearby.

Perhaps on that small moon over there?

Rather than change accounting here and there, just say 600 points?

[Undeadguy 5,749]

12 minutes ago, rasproteus said:

Imperial squadrons are destroyed because they are short range fighters.

Unless there's a base nearby.

Perhaps on that small moon over there?

Rather than change accounting here and there, just say 600 points?

So increase fleet sizes to 600? Waht about squads?

[GhostofNobodyInParticular 2,497]

59 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

So increase fleet sizes to 600? Waht about squads?

I like the idea behind squads being limited by squad value. I think a proportional relation like you suggest (1.5 or 2, to keep calculations easy) is the best approach.

Of course, any increase will still face the issue you put forward, that of them being left behind. . . I can't see an easy way around this if the initial idea is to stay the same. Perhaps it operates like CC, where when you raise your fleet level, the squad cap rises, but if you lose ships, you keep the squads? So squads are based on squad points, but if that number goes down, the squads can still stay there, just you can't add any more? Sort of a 'well, we built all these fighters. . . how do we store them?' 'Tie them to the hull?'  

 

Also, for the fleet caps, if you want to not count the cost of uniques, simply upping the fleet cap will change the balance, since if you up the cap but charge for uniques, somebody who goes all generic will be able to fit more into a fleet. If you keep the cap as is but knock off the extra cost of uniques, whether somebody goes all generic or all unique doesn't matter, it's like both went the same way, resulting in more even fleets, in terms of contents. Due to the power of uniques, I am not sure which is better. The former allows the generic user to make up for the loss of quality with quantity, the second does not, implying that the first is better. However, given the amount of effort needed to get uniques, maybe that bonus is a reward?

[Undeadguy 5,749]

7 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I like the idea behind squads being limited by squad value. I think a proportional relation like you suggest (1.5 or 2, to keep calculations easy) is the best approach.

Of course, any increase will still face the issue you put forward, that of them being left behind. . . I can't see an easy way around this if the initial idea is to stay the same. Perhaps it operates like CC, where when you raise your fleet level, the squad cap rises, but if you lose ships, you keep the squads? So squads are based on squad points, but if that number goes down, the squads can still stay there, just you can't add any more? Sort of a 'well, we built all these fighters. . . how do we store them?' 'Tie them to the hull?'  

Yea this seems like it will work the best. You can still add Independent Squads though. 

8 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Also, for the fleet caps, if you want to not count the cost of uniques, simply upping the fleet cap will change the balance, since if you up the cap but charge for uniques, somebody who goes all generic will be able to fit more into a fleet. If you keep the cap as is but knock off the extra cost of uniques, whether somebody goes all generic or all unique doesn't matter, it's like both went the same way, resulting in more even fleets, in terms of contents. Due to the power of uniques, I am not sure which is better. The former allows the generic user to make up for the loss of quality with quantity, the second does not, implying that the first is better. However, given the amount of effort needed to get uniques, maybe that bonus is a reward?

Fleet caps can always be removed. I just implemented them to prevent a snow ball effect for this testing. I had intended to open it up if someone were to reach 500, but it turns out that is going slower than I initially thought.

Regardless of how squad point cost would work, you're still limited to the squad value on your fleet, so you will always want to be efficient with your squads. I wanted to implement this change because you aren't buying commanders, titles, or aces. You earn them. It also slows down fleet growth a bit because those extra points will no longer count towards the fleet point total, but you still have the same power. It also allows some breathing room with a point cap, because you can play with more than 500 points.

[rasproteus 584]

Yeah I don't know. I think I agree on the 500 point and if you want to make titles free that's not a bad plan. Might see things like Paragon if it's free, why not?

It also means that Hera and Han are crazy cheap. And it makes me nervous to think about facing Sloane aces if all those Tie aces only cost 8 points each.

[Visovics 1,675]

1 minute ago, rasproteus said:

Yeah I don't know. I think I agree on the 500 point and if you want to make titles free that's not a bad plan. Might see things like Paragon if it's free, why not?

It also means that Hera and Han are crazy cheap. And it makes me nervous to think about facing Sloane aces if all those Tie aces only cost 8 points each.

yeah, but each of those TIEs would need to survive and get some kills, so getting them would be quite hard

[rasproteus 584]

25 minutes ago, Visovics said:

yeah, but each of those TIEs would need to survive and get some kills, so getting them would be quite hard

Survive one game and get one kill for 2xp and therefore a title? Not really that bad.  Multiply that by 5 and sure it gets a bit more difficult.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

@GhostofNobodyInParticular @CaribbeanNinja

So Ninja's shipyard was destroyed, and there is a disabled ISD. 

Since the AF had BT on it, the question is if the ISD is captured. This depends on who won the battle. Since it seems like neither of you retreated, who scored higher will win, just like a normal game. For these purposes, the ISD is "destroyed" because it is no longer functional. 

The loser will have their fleets moved back to a friendly shipyard.

Also, what was lost during the battle and who earned XP? The Garrison forces will disband, so those ships don't matter if they were destroyed.

[GhostofNobodyInParticular 2,497]

7 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

@GhostofNobodyInParticular @CaribbeanNinja

So Ninja's shipyard was destroyed, and there is a disabled ISD. 

Since the AF had BT on it, the question is if the ISD is captured. This depends on who won the battle. Since it seems like neither of you retreated, who scored higher will win, just like a normal game. For these purposes, the ISD is "destroyed" because it is no longer functional. 

The loser will have their fleets moved back to a friendly shipyard.

Also, what was lost during the battle and who earned XP? The Garrison forces will disband, so those ships don't matter if they were destroyed.

I killed everything from the garrison but the AF and one HH, and also got 2 X-Wings.

He killed all of my fighters but 1 bomber, 1 Goz, and the ISD.

Score was 137-279 his favor.

 

My ships gain the default 3 XP, cause all the stuff that killed anything died. His surviving squads all get XP. The whale killed the ISD.

Edited March 3, 2018 by GhostofNobodyInParticular

[Undeadguy 5,749]

Just now, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I killed everything from the garrison but the AF, and 2 X-Wings.

He killed all of my fighters but 1 bomber, 1 Goz, and the ISD.

Score was 137-279 his favor.

Ok, so the ISD will be captured by Ninja. Your fleets will go back to your shipyard. Ninja will have to move to a friendly shipyard to repair the ISD, because it is scarred. Ninja will no longer have a shipyard in the sector and lose 50RP/round, but will be able to build things from one of his allies so he is still in the game. 

Also, access to the Rebel home sector is open, but venturing there will reduce your presence in the contested sector. 

 

What did you guys think of the shipyard defense/attack? What did you like and dislike?

[rasproteus 584]

The station is swingy as heck. 3r 3b 3bl did four damage on one roll. 

The station being able to take damage cards was mostly irrelevant.

It *is* fairly tanky.  

[GhostofNobodyInParticular 2,497]

12 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Ok, so the ISD will be captured by Ninja. Your fleets will go back to your shipyard. Ninja will have to move to a friendly shipyard to repair the ISD, because it is scarred. Ninja will no longer have a shipyard in the sector and lose 50RP/round, but will be able to build things from one of his allies so he is still in the game. 

Also, access to the Rebel home sector is open, but venturing there will reduce your presence in the contested sector. 

 

What did you guys think of the shipyard defense/attack? What did you like and dislike?

Overall I think it is ok. The station is swingy but does influence decisions cause you have to plan for when it isn't. It also was the 'cause of my ISD's demise, so it definitely has a use.

 

So any disabled ships are automatically captured if the defender has boarding upgrades? That makes losing almost any battle a near disaster since you give the enemy a free fleet. . .

Edited March 3, 2018 by GhostofNobodyInParticular

[Undeadguy 5,749]

18 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Overall I think it is ok. The station is swingy but does influence decisions cause you have to plan for when it isn't. It also was the 'cause of my ISD's demise, so it definitely has a use.

 

So any disabled ships are automatically captured if the defender has boarding upgrades? That makes losing almost any battle a near disaster since you give the enemy a free fleet. . .

The boarding thing is to keep fleets stable. So you may lose a ship but you capture another to maintain pace. And it's still 1:1 on commands, so they would have to take enough BT to capture all of your ships, and you can fire on your own to destroy to prevent capture. 

It's not a perfect system and can cause a snowball effect. Maybe limiting it to 1 capture at the end of a game if able would be better...

[BrobaFett 4,209]

5 days since the last post. I've been slammed at work but i dont have a game to play. Are we ready to move on to the next turn?

 

@Undeadguy can you crack the whip? Or dangle a carrot? To get games finished

[Visovics 1,675]

I still need to play against Ras, sorry for the delay and lack of notice, had periods of exams, I’ll see if I can get it done tonight or this weekend with him

[Undeadguy 5,749]

8 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

5 days since the last post. I've been slammed at work but i dont have a game to play. Are we ready to move on to the next turn?

 

@Undeadguy can you crack the whip? Or dangle a carrot? To get games finished

Sorry, I've been waiting for the last game to finish and I've been busy with regionals prep. 

[BrobaFett 4,209]

3 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Sorry, I've been waiting for the last game to finish and I've been busy with regionals prep. 

No worries, like i said i been swamped too, i just didnt want this to lose momentum.

[rasproteus 584]

Vis and I are going to try to get a game in around 9 or 10 gmt tomorrow.

[MandalorianMoose 1,862]

Sorry :/ Rasp and I have also been just missing each other for our game as well... first I was available and he wasn’t, now he is free but I played all day with a buddy IRL today so will be hard pressed to get another gaming day till Tuesday at the earliest

[Visovics 1,675]

Apologise for the delay of the write up

After a hard-fought battle (for my side, his was much calmer) the rebellion keep their mines protected by Rasproteus! With ackbar leading the Assault Frigates, the Interdictor and Raiders stood no chance, as the Combat Interdictor Ares was captured by enemy forces, while the Raiders Phonoi and Bellona perished, luckily, Kratos the last Raider managed to escape, along with all the squads, except an Aggressor. The only imperial who brought back the glory of destroying an enemy starfighter was the Firespray... And so I curse engineering that saved his AFs from my intensive bombardment from the Defenders, which were impeccable not missing a single shot, and yet it wasn't enough...

[rasproteus 584]

38 minutes ago, Visovics said:

Apologise for the delay of the write up

After a hard-fought battle (for my side, his was much calmer) the rebellion keep their mines protected by Rasproteus! With ackbar leading the Assault Frigates, the Interdictor and Raiders stood no chance, as the Combat Interdictor Ares was captured by enemy forces, while the Raiders Phonoi and Bellona perished, luckily, Kratos the last Raider managed to escape, along with all the squads, except an Aggressor. The only imperial who brought back the glory of destroying an enemy starfighter was the Firespray... And so I curse engineering that saved his AFs from my intensive bombardment from the Defenders, which were impeccable not missing a single shot, and yet it wasn't enough...

Thank you for posting this - I had planned to do so myself and it slipped away.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the "deploy squads last" thing - it seems really punishing for a squadron-heavy fleet to be automatically out-deployed.  Perhaps placing 3 at a time or something like that would be a middle ground?

[Undeadguy 5,749]

2 hours ago, rasproteus said:

Thank you for posting this - I had planned to do so myself and it slipped away.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the "deploy squads last" thing - it seems really punishing for a squadron-heavy fleet to be automatically out-deployed.  Perhaps placing 3 at a time or something like that would be a middle ground?

Or deploy squads 2 at a time, up to your command value of ships on the table? Middle ground between GCW and vanilla.