How to beat an ISD [Rant]

[DampfGecko 571]

I'm also a new player, and play exclusively imperial, but I love the ISD, so what I can tell you is what I dread most when facing a list like yours:

You have more ships than him. If you pick objectives that favours splitting up your fleet, and deploy at extreme range, he will have to decide what to eventually take down and commit to one side. That way, not only can't he go for VPs, but also doesn't have enough turns left to flat out table you.

If the rebel starts slow and jumps up his speed later, he, on the other hand, can potentially focus all firepower on a single target, which not even an ISD is going to like. Also, TiEs hate being in enemy flak. If the big ships are straight up ignored, those 3 hull squads tend to go down in droves when focused down. 

If there is a rebel ship that isn't finished off, it's likely there won't be another round of effective fire once it shot past the imperial ships. This means going at the rebels in a staggered line so far worked well for me, as I could mitigate this somewhat, but a ship that scored and than almost died does not care that is has only one hull left when the game ends.

Tl;dr: From what little games I played, my greatest concern as an ISD player is commiting too early to one side of a fanned-out rebel line, as it can still pounce a single ship very effectively. Staying back and goading an imperial to do just that usually presents the rebel important openings.

 

[Whiplash205 32]

4 hours ago, Astrodar said:

The name of the game is placement and positioning. Rebels, more so than Imperials in my opinion, live and die by positioning well. If you are concerned about being new and dealing with the maneuvering, then I'd suggest doing a complete work over of your list for now. Ackbar with an MC80 is tanky while still throwing out some serious damage. If you have access to an MC80, I'd definitely give this a go as the foundation for your fleet. Ackbar acted a bit like training wheels for me while I was learning. He allowed me to still punch really hard even if I didn't have great positioning. This let me focus more on other aspects of the match.

If he is consistently choosing first, then use that to your advantage. Pick some objectives that give you lots of points for just sitting around, and make him come to you. When he goes first and has to choose from your objectives, don't give him an easy choice. His VSD is slow and will stay out of the fight for a while, and you get to go slow killing his QBT. Heck... you could even take some QBT's yourself. Either they rush in and you get to use them, and if they don't, then you get to mine a bunch of victory tokens.

With QBTs, Ackbar, Leading Shots and an Assualt MC80 with Defiance, you could potentially throw 6 red, a blue, and another dice of your choice at long range with the option of throwing away one of your blues to reroll those fickle red dice. At medium, you get to add another 2 blue. With a Concentrate Fire you get to add another of whatever you want (given it's already there). This means that at medium range in this scenario, you could throw 6 reds, 3 blues, and 2 blacks. That's 11 dice with an option to throw a blue away to reroll!

Also, if you're wanting to get better, I'd suggest jumping online and getting some games in or watching some videos of gameplay. You can learn a lot from others.

As another new to the game player I couldn't agree more with spending a lot of time on vassal. Even if you don't have time to play a full game just watching games seeing how experienced played fly their fleets can help. And I have found the vassal players more than willing to help out with advice and post game criticism. 

And if you can, try not to care about winning so much right now. I have yet to win a game or kill more than a ship or 2 but I am seeing improvement in my decisions and how I fly my list. Make that your goal and the wins will come. I use Whiplash on discord and vassal. If you want hit me up and we can play some training games together, ie: backing moves up and trying something different, explaining our thinking behind moves, even suggesting better moves for the other player.

Above all fly casual and have fun.

[Gordon Freemann 23]

2 hours ago, PodRacer said:

 Disclaimer* I dont play rebels but I Know what i dont like!

I'v put Sato in to start, I can tell you want to make him work for you,  I think Dodonna is ok here too.

You have quite a big deployment advantage here and the start of the battle will be key, u may win/lose in setup if you deploy to his strengths and not your own.

He deploys Ship1 squads squads squads squads Ship2.  You may choose to deploy your ships first and Hold those squads back to keep them free for their 'run' into the battle, Iv gone for a small but durable force of squads, Sato may only proc once so make it good!

Of his missions, Id pick Either Contested outpost or Superior Positions.

Outpost lets you predict his movements, Superior Positions offers no real advantage to his squads, and if you leverage your superior movement charts, Deploying first wont matter as much as the competition between the two of you intensifies. He will soon realise chasing you down  is a futile effort!

 
 

 

lAMBDA COMPLEX1 SATO 

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400  

Commander: Commander Sato

Assault Objective: Most Wanted -Extra dice for your corvettes mainly 
Defense Objective: Capture the VIP . Running away fast isn't an issue for us
Navigation Objective: Salvage Run-  He will score very few tokens, you have the potential to 'farm' a large score

 

MC30c Scout Frigate (69 points)
-  Foresight  ( 8  points) 
-  Intel Officer  ( 7  points) 
-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points) 
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points) 
-  Assault Proton Torpedoes  ( 5  points) 
= 99 total ship cost

Intel for offense or Lando if you would prefer the safety net. Add sato to a salvo and put those blacks out to long range. Intel that brace. Take nav commands to start with. Just practice flirting with his front arcs at long range then pulling up alongside and Unloading the torpedoes.

Next corvettes.. These little beasts do an absurd amount of damage to Isds considering the scale difference in the two.

Proc those trcs 2 or 3 in a turn and watch his ship whittle down to nothing, the key tip is to stay at red range and not slip into blue. 

Sometimes if you know you only have a couple of hours to play you can fall into the trap of playing too narrow with rebels because you dont want to spend 3 turns flankng an Isd, but its worth it.  Put as much distance between you and your opponent at deployment, and power round the long way.  Your opponent has a very suspect victory class in his list, you need to punish him for it. Get round it and unload those trcs, dont worry if u dont get a shot off for 3 or 4 turns going round the long way, the last 3 turns of shooting will likely be enough

Jainas is a must, Dodonnas pride is optional, but never underestimate a nasty crit to ruin a star destroyer. Lose this if u want to guarantee P1

 

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Jainas Light  ( 2  points) 
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  ( 7  points) 
= 53 total ship cost

 

[ flagship ] CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Commander Sato  ( 32  points) 
-  Dodonnas Pride  ( 6  points) 
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  ( 7  points) 
= 89 total ship cost

 

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  ( 7  points) 
= 51 total ship cost

Now a speed 3 ISD has a long reach, But these can all move further still, Losing one 50 point corvette to pull his isd out of position allowing you to kill his 120 point victory is a win for you every time. If you can splithis ships up, it will boost your chances of winning further

 

GR-75 Combat Retrofits (24 points)
-  Bright Hope  ( 2  points) 
-  Toryn Farr  ( 7  points) 
-  Slicer Tools  ( 7  points) 
= 40 total ship cost

This might not be the optimal loadout, but slicers are a great way to ruin your opponents best laid plans. 

 

2 VCX-100 Freighters ( 30 points) 
1 Jan Ors ( 19 points) 
1 Ten Numb ( 19 points) 

With No Jerjerrod to call on your opponent will be hard pressed to be able to catch any of your ships flown properly. Dont rush to engage, Play a six turn game, and by turn 4 you should be taking control of your future encounters!  Deploy at an angle never run towards an Isd when you can easily fly round it. 

 

Worst case scenarios-  You mis position your squads and his alpha strike kills your squads.  Keep bright hope between you and your opponent on approach. Numb is only speed two, so you wont be rushing too far Save jans braces for Ten numb, his crit proccing is essential to your success here. You are outgunned in squads, but you have the tools to do real damage to his squads with a smaller investment. If you can work Adar Tallon in to the list for a double Ten Numb hit you are golden.

Your opponent catches you off guard by jumping forwards at speed early. Try not to see this as a problem but an opportunity.  This means his  Victory is now isolated further back up the table. So begin Naving round the isd and heading for the victory.  

So now you out deploy him, out manouvre him and have Identified his weaknesses you should be able to start getting better results.  Get Used to your Navigation charts, they are what win you these encounters....

And we should rendezvous in a couple of months for your 'How do I stop demo killing all my corvettes??' Post =)

 

Honestly I don't understand how that list is supposed to work at all.

One CR90 dies as soon as it get sinto long range of the VSD. The fighters are toast as soon as they get into attack range of the interceptors.  An interceptor has more or less 5 attack and 3 counter dices from a statistics point of view, so he will make more damage than 4/2 would you have to believe.

He is keeping his ships together all the time. with only a minimal distance so they can support each other. So he will not  jump the ISD and leave the VSD behind. I have seen several battle reports and always think: why don't they keep the ships together? 

 

In the side arc the CR90s don't do much damage at all on maneuvering so I can shoot front and side is way beyond my ability. 

And how will 2 CR90 be able to kill one ISD? They don't have enough firepower at all. 

 

Bright Hope is also toast as he will roll a target lock always! Even if he has to reroll 3 dices to do that. 

Thanks for the help, but that is not what I can use right now as is not within my ability to do. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Gordon Freemann

[Gordon Freemann 23]

35 minutes ago, Whiplash205 said:

As another new to the game player I couldn't agree more with spending a lot of time on vassal. Even if you don't have time to play a full game just watching games seeing how experienced played fly their fleets can help. And I have found the vassal players more than willing to help out with advice and post game criticism. 

And if you can, try not to care about winning so much right now. I have yet to win a game or kill more than a ship or 2 but I am seeing improvement in my decisions and how I fly my list. Make that your goal and the wins will come. I use Whiplash on discord and vassal. If you want hit me up and we can play some training games together, ie: backing moves up and trying something different, explaining our thinking behind moves, even suggesting better moves for the other player.

Above all fly casual and have fun.

I have witnessed your fight against Antoni, remember? Old metal bands? And I didn't understood what the both of you were doing at all. Just by watching I couldn't make head or tails out of it. 

[Gordon Freemann 23]

Nothing seems to make much sense. Not taking fighters means he has 8 very mobile units how can harass me with 8 red dice. Counting for statistics, that will be 3 damage on the average with his luck maybe even 4. 

Interceptors cost 11 points or, statistically speak, 5 attack dice and 3 counter dice if you have at least a pair of them. An A-Wing has 3/2 cost the same and has one more HP. The more Interceptors you have the more dangerous they become. 

I'm starting to get a headache from this. 

 

[scipio83 224]

9 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Nothing seems to make much sense. Not taking fighters means he has 8 very mobile units how can harass me with 8 red dice. Counting for statistics, that will be 3 damage on the average with his luck maybe even 4. 

Interceptors cost 11 points or, statistically speak, 5 attack dice and 3 counter dice if you have at least a pair of them. An A-Wing has 3/2 cost the same and has one more HP. The more Interceptors you have the more dangerous they become. 

I'm starting to get a headache from this. 

 

Well you can always try another hobby.

[Gordon Freemann 23]

7 minutes ago, scipio83 said:

Well you can always try another hobby.

yep, trying roughly about further 4-10 games. If I don't get the hang of the game during that time I call it quits. 

[stonestokes 737]

36 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

I'm starting to get a headache from this.

You have been given a TON of great advice in this thread. You have countered every piece of advice with a reason why it won't work. Be patient. Try some of this advice. You will probably lose some more. That's ok. It's just a game. Learn from your mistakes. Keep playing, keep listening to advice, and you will get better. Things will eventually click.

I was in exactly the same spot when I first started playing. I wanted to play Rebels and I kept losing and losing, over and over again. After a half dozen games that I lost, I played a game as Imperial and I won. But I really wanted to play Rebels, so I went back to playing Rebels and losing over and over again once more. Then something clicked, and now I win about half of my games. I still make mistakes, and I'm still learning, but I am making progress. You will too.

Here are some of the best pieces of advice in this thread:

• Toryn Farr. She is seriously the best upgrade card for any Rebel fleet with squadrons in it. Put her on Bright Hope and put her in the thick of it. Don't let your squadrons get outside of 1-3 of her.
• Lando. He is ridiculously good.
• MC-30s. These things are beasts. Put one in your fleet.
• Drop Sato. He is really good in expert hands. But it is a trick to get him to work, especially against a list designed to kill off squadrons. Instead, use Dodonna, or Mon Mothma, or Ackbar (personally, I think Dodonna is the way to go as a beginner).
• B-Wings. They are brutal against ships. They don't need to be fast, but you could run them alongside a Pelta with All Fighters Follow Me!
• Jan Ors. Every Rebel heavy squadron should have her in there. Keep her in the thick of it, but keep her safe.
• Bomber Command Center. If you are going with a large fighter group, you want BCC. If you run two flotillas, put this on the one that doesn't have Toryn Farr. Put both flotillas into the thick of it.
• Lighten up. Don't put too many upgrades on your ships. You want to keep them kind of light. You want more activations than your friend has. Neb-B + Yavaris, GR-75 + Toryn + Bright Hope, GR-75 + BCC, etc.

Try some of this.

Edited January 4, 2018 by stonestokes

[Gordon Freemann 23]

I do not doubt that I have become  very sound advice from all who responded.  My problem is, that I can't get my head around some of the ideas and some things, like perfect maneuvering, are still way to hard for me to make them work.

I will try to be on vassal every evening to get training. Maybe try out Imperial ships and see where this is taking me.

But in the end it might still be that I don't understand the game mechanics well enough to play good enough to have fun and therefor quite a good game.

[RobertK 709]

19 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

I do not doubt that I have become  very sound advice from all who responded.  My problem is, that I can't get my head around some of the ideas and some things, like perfect maneuvering, are still way to hard for me to make them work.

I will try to be on vassal every evening to get training. Maybe try out Imperial ships and see where this is taking me.

But in the end it might still be that I don't understand the game mechanics well enough to play good enough to have fun and therefor quite a good game.

A few of pieces of advice.

1) Play 2 MC30s. Deploy at speed 3, bank a navigate token the first turn (either from a command dial or from a Flotilla with the Comms Net upgrade nearby). Navigate every round with them unless you have a VERY pressing need to do something else. An MC30 maneuvers great at speed 3, and a navigate dial+token in hand means you can be at any speed from 1 to 4 depending on where you need to be. Mess with that maneuver tool before you notch it to be where you need to be (ie NOT in the front arc of something Imperial unless you will leave that arc before they can shoot).

2) Never EVER be in the front arc of something gray and triangle-shaped when it can shoot you. Yes, I said this twice. Practice not being in the front arc of gray triangle-shaped ships. It's fun not being there!

3) You really need to make blaster noises whenever you roll dice. Try to mimic the sounds in Vassal, but in real life. This is a key to success. (If you take this game too seriously, it won't be fun even if you're great at it.) 

Edited January 4, 2018 by RobertK

[stonestokes 737]

6 minutes ago, RobertK said:

3) You really need to make blaster noises whenever you roll dice. Try to mimic the sounds in Vassal, but in real life. This is a key to success. (If you take this game too seriously, it won't be fun even if you're great at it.)

This reminds me of another piece of advice: check out the Master of the Fleet channel on YouTube. Those Aussies seem to enjoy the game more than just about anyone I've ever seen. Plus they have some tutorial videos on there that are really good.

[Norsehound 2,740]

I do wonder if you and your opponent are somehow missing some core rules that are enabling him to get easy shots off. I wouldn't expect CR-90s to die horribly at long range to an ISD. It should take some time for him to chew through your squadrons. You have about 44 hull of squadrons vs his 24. Since he doesn't have Mithel in his list, he has no area of effect damage to help wipe out all of your squadrons. So... what, he's rolling perfectly and you're rolling poorly or not using your defense tokens? It might be worth getting some experienced players to help you on the table. I've been in this game since the very beginning and I would be glad to show players how to play... more than once, I have caught them mis-understanding rules.

Something feels off about what you're reporting to us which makes me feel something might be off in your game.

At any rate, I'm an Imperial player. I can tell you his spaceships crush spaceships and his fighters, sorta, crush enemy starfighters. It's an effective list, but to veterans like me he can be out-played by having more ships.

Key point: In this game, you shoot and then move. This means with more ships you can force him to move into range before he has a chance to shoot you.

This is why two-ship lists have an uphill struggle among us veterans. The opening engagement is key in this game, because one player is going to start shooting from a damage state. It's why Demolisher is so powerful, because it circumvents this. Force him to go first, move into your attack zone, and then fire everything on one of his two ships to kill it and bring his activation down to 1 ship.

Key Point: His entire defense hinges on a brace and two redirects.

What this means is:

• XI7s can hinder the redirects, boucning only 1 source of damage elsewhere and he suffers the rest in the arc you shoot him at.
• Using an intel officer on the brace means he'll either throw it away early or never use it, forcing him to take damage.
• At long range, you can cancel dice with your evades, but he has to suffer every hit you give him.

Key Point: The more attacks, the better.

The reason fighters are so supreme in this game is because with each small attack, are you exhausting a defense token or getting damage through? LIke the death of a thousand cuts, an unopposed fighter ball can do enough small attack damage to force the defender to exhaust all of their defense tokens or suffer a lot of damage they don't like. This is why Yavaris is so potent: 6 attacks inflated to 2-3 damage each is pretty harsh on any capital ship- especially an ISD.

His fighter compliment gets in the way of Yavaris working well... but there are strategies around this based on your lists:

• Aces in general are harder to kill because of tokens. Consider multiple aces over many generics, that way you can play off of their good abilities as well as the double braces they have to mitigate damage.
• Rieekan can shield one ace per turn. Putting Wedge with Escort in the front of your formation and forcing his entire fighter group to shoot him first wastes all of his squadron attacks against an already dead target (which powers up when attacking activated squadrons- let him be during the squadron phase where he is likely to shoot last).
• He has no intel, so one squadron at a time will pin down his fighters until that fighter squadron is dead. It's a perfect screen to TIE (ha) up his fighters and force them to stay away from your capital ships. So like above, sending Wedge will tie up all of those squadrons, force all of them to shoot him down, where on the next turn you send your next squadron to lock up those fighters.

Key Point: You don't have to be aggressive, force him to come to you.

Around where I live, we have one player who dares to go speed 0 on the first turn. Why? it pads out the turn by forcing you to come to him, and as highlighted in my first point, you end up in his range before you can shoot him. Your list doesn't have to go forward to attack him... with two activations, you can wait for him to come into your range by making ships activate but not move. Then when he's in range, open fire.

If you are second player, there are a few objectives which help you considerably by being a defensive player. Solar Corona, Contested Outpost, and Station Assault are all passive objectives that reward you for forming a star-castle on your side of the board, making him come to you.

of course, the opposite is true. You can also build a list designed to fly at speed 3 and above, with the intention of flying away from him, scoring points, and winning the game.

Key Point: Rebels are better because they are cheaper.

One problem as an Imperial player I always run into is the fact that the Rebellion can buy more ships, put powerful upgrades on a lot of them, and have really good fighters. You have a lot of hammerheads? Put intel officers on all of them, under Leia, and take concentrate fire all the way down. It's three points cheaper than a bare nebulon support, but each shot threatens a defense token and you get a free re-roll from the token Leia includes in each command.

Even liberties are cheaper than ISDs. To make up the difference, take some good turbolasers on them to make them hit better with each shot. For one point more over an ISD-II, you have a Liberty Battle Cruiser with XI7s and H9s to lock out the brace and make redirects useless.

 

If we're sharing knowledge, I have my own set of articles I posted over at boardgamegeek.

 

I do understand feeling frustrated though. My fiancee doesn't like these kinds of games, and I don't force her into trying it. I stay in it, and I had the patience to learn these complex tactics and get better, because I enjoy having something useful to do with all the pretty models by playing a game with them. If this appeals to you, I suggest sticking with it, because Armada is IMO the best experience of its kind.

[The Jabbawookie 5,610]

1 hour ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Nothing seems to make much sense. Not taking fighters means he has 8 very mobile units how can harass me with 8 red dice. Counting for statistics, that will be 3 damage on the average with his luck maybe even 4. 

Interceptors cost 11 points or, statistically speak, 5 attack dice and 3 counter dice if you have at least a pair of them. An A-Wing has 3/2 cost the same and has one more HP. The more Interceptors you have the more dangerous they become. 

I'm starting to get a headache from this. 

 

Eight blue dice, 4 average damage. (Red happens to be the same, though.) He spent 84 points on those craft, and he can’t use damaged ones unless he wants to give you little 11 point flak prizes. And you should have more ships. The last game I played, I finished off 6 Tie squadrons in a single round with heavy flak. The TIEs did 3 shield damage, and gave me 48 points. Great deal. If he’d been running interceptors, I’d have gotten 18 more free points. This is why interceptors are rightfully unpopular.

The issue might also be a matter of finding a fresh outlook. Aside from the Nebulon and the Pelta (possibly the 2 hardest ships in the game to play, let alone play together) do any ships look good to you? Start there. Yes, you might have played an early game or two with [insert ship] and lost. All ships lose. All players lose. No exceptions. You even could try using a borrowed Imperial fleet, and learning its weaknesses that way. Against this list, ask and I’ll seriously build you a dozen different “counter fleets” for either faction. What nobody can do is tell you how exactly to fly them. You’ll have to learn that yourself, maybe by losing some more. Wins will eventually come too. If you don’t feel like trying new fleets or strategies, watch others play live games. Note what works and what doesn’t, and theorize why. After the game, ask a couple questions about their strategy. The extreme learning curve of this game is daunting; take it slow if needed. If all else fails, don’t be afraid to just take a break. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Edited January 4, 2018 by The Jabbawookie

[Gordon Freemann 23]

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The issue might also be a matter of finding a fresh outlook. Aside from the Nebulon and the Pelta (possibly the 2 hardest ships in the game to play, let alone play together) do any ships look good to you? Start there. Yes, you might have played an early game or two with [insert ship] and lost. All ships lose. All players lose. No exceptions. 

I can cope with loosing. What I can't cope right now, that I get blasted from the board as soon I get into fighting range and I don't know what to do better. If I had a clue what went wrong I could learn, but all I do is loose and don't get better.  Maybe that explains best why I'm frustrated. I'm changing tactics and fleets and loose while all he does is take the same build make it slightly better each time and gun me down. 

[TheEasternKing 607]

Ok Gordon Freeman here is a sample Admiral Ackbar Fleet.

 

MC80 Assault Crusier : Admiral Ackbar : Intel Officer : Engine Techs : ECM : RBD : X17 TL : Home One (192pts)

CR90 A : Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  (51pts)
CR90 A : Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  (51pts)
CR90 A : Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  (51pts)
CR90 A : Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  (51pts)

Red : Advanced Gunnery
Yellow : Fire Lanes
Blue : Superior Positions

Fleet total : 396pts.

Ok, you have 5 activation's to his 2, meaning as player 1 you get to activate 3 ships after he has activated all of his, as 2nd you get to activate 4 ships after he has activated his 2. The core concept here is the CR90s with a Conc Fire order & Ackbar can attack with 4 red dice, with Home One you get to change a dice to a face with an Accuracy, with TRC you get to change a dice to a face with a Double hit, this means each CR90 should be hitting for 3-4 damage on average with an Accuracy result as well, that is 12-14 damage per round at long range without the MC80 firing yet, no super maneuvering required, just be in range to engage. and your CR90s inside range 5 of Home one, with the activation advantage you have this is very very easy to achieve.

He has squadrons sure, but they have blue anti ship dice, meaning only a 50% chance of dealing 1 damage, and no crits. Once you have killed his 2 ships he is tabled, so ignore the squadrons.

Advanced Gunnery if he picks it..well the MC80 will like it a lot, and the ISD/VSD wont.
Fire Lanes if he picks this, you stick all 3 tokens on top of each other and place them near your corner deployment so he has to race across the table, right into your MC80s side arc and your string of CR90s.
Superior positions is the weakest and he might score a few rear hits from his squads, but you will have complete advantage on set up, and you can position yourself for maximum advantage, and with 4  ship activation advantage and the maneuverability of the CR90s its not unreasonable to expect to be scoring your own rear hits on his ships before you table him.

[Gordon Freemann 23]

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

I do wonder if you and your opponent are somehow missing some core rules that are enabling him to get easy shots off. I wouldn't expect CR-90s to die horribly at long range to an ISD. It should take some time for him to chew through your squadrons. You have about 44 hull of squadrons vs his 24. Since he doesn't have Mithel in his list, he has no area of effect damage to help wipe out all of your squadrons. So... what, he's rolling perfectly and you're rolling poorly or not using your defense tokens?

Because his fighters have more movement he can attack first due to have a WC. He moves up to 5 squads (one banked token). Each of those can attack with 4 dice. 1 reroll due to swarm equals 2-3 damage each squad for a sum of 10-15. (not counting Valen Rudor with 3 black dice!)

Then I retaliate with my squads and do around 2 damage on the average killing 3 squads and hurting Valen, but in return suffer another 5 damage on average thanks to counter and swarm.

I have traded 15-20 damage vs 10-12.

Quote

It might be worth getting some experienced players to help you on the table. I've been in this game since the very beginning and I would be glad to show players how to play... more than once, I have caught them mis-understanding rules.

Wish we had any around here. This is my only source of knowledge right now.

Quote

Something feels off about what you're reporting to us which makes me feel something might be off in your game.

Long range with capacitors and QBT will give him 7 dice + 1 for CT. With Vader is gets an insane amount of damage due to his reroll ability. 

Quote

At any rate, I'm an Imperial player. I can tell you his spaceships crush spaceships and his fighters, sorta, crush enemy starfighters. It's an effective list, but to veterans like me he can be out-played by having more ships.

Key point: In this game, you shoot and then move. This means with more ships you can force him to move into range before he has a chance to shoot you.

This is why two-ship lists have an uphill struggle among us veterans. The opening engagement is key in this game, because one player is going to start shooting from a damage state. It's why Demolisher is so powerful, because it circumvents this. Force him to go first, move into your attack zone, and then fire everything on one of his two ships to kill it and bring his activation down to 1 ship.

Key Point: His entire defense hinges on a brace and two redirects.

What this means is:

• XI7s can hinder the redirects, boucning only 1 source of damage elsewhere and he suffers the rest in the arc you shoot him at.
• Using an intel officer on the brace means he'll either throw it away early or never use it, forcing him to take damage.
• At long range, you can cancel dice with your evades, but he has to suffer every hit you give him.

I would need ships with enough firepower to force him to use brace. with the 3 dices I usually have at long range that's not work so far... 

Quote

Key Point: The more attacks, the better.

The reason fighters are so supreme in this game is because with each small attack, are you exhausting a defense token or getting damage through? LIke the death of a thousand cuts, an unopposed fighter ball can do enough small attack damage to force the defender to exhaust all of their defense tokens or suffer a lot of damage they don't like. This is why Yavaris is so potent: 6 attacks inflated to 2-3 damage each is pretty harsh on any capital ship- especially an ISD.

That's were by bad dices come in. Tried once to hit him with all X-Wings. Result: 5 blanks and 2 target locks...

Quote

 

Key Point: You don't have to be aggressive, force him to come to you.

He's coming to me alright because he's not afraid of anything I can throw at him or have thrown at him so far.

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Gordon Freemann

[Gordon Freemann 23]

He just send me his updated list.

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=155045&key=1bdc4cfc953bd7c989861858877936c3

Anybody willing to play that against me?

I have read a lot of good advice hear, but I'm very sure that making them work is harder than it sounds while reading.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Gordon Freemann

[The Jabbawookie 5,610]

35 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

I can cope with loosing. What I can't cope right now, that I get blasted from the board as soon I get into fighting range and I don't know what to do better. If I had a clue what went wrong I could learn, but all I do is loose and don't get better.  Maybe that explains best why I'm frustrated. I'm changing tactics and fleets and loose while all he does is take the same build make it slightly better each time and gun me down. 

Sounds like you’re having trouble with understanding the big picture of a battle. That’s hard to stomach; I know how it feels. It would be ideal if there were a veteran in your area to watch you play. Failing that, ask your foe where he thinks you went wrong after every match, including when you start winning. If you’re so inclined, take abundant photos and put them up here with battlereports. It would be my pleasure to give you a step-by-step analysis, and I’ve no doubt better players than me (and proper Rebels) will help out too. In the meantime, let us take a look at your next list in advance when you have it, so we can rule that out as a problem. I’d battle you online, but I don’t have Vassal. I promise you can win games, but this is the hardest part of paying your dues right here. 

If you take TheEasternKing’s list, use Sensor Net over Superior Positions. He’ll hate it with two ships.

Edited January 4, 2018 by The Jabbawookie

[TheEasternKing 607]

That list I just posted will crush that fleet, with ease.

And you're outgunning him doing it, with a Rebel Fleet of CR90s.

Edited January 4, 2018 by TheEasternKing

[elbmc1969 182]

17 hours ago, Gordon Freemann said:

My rolls where pretty bad too, but he has Vader and managed to deal 9 damage with his VDS in one turn alone. His fighters ate at my X-Wings with easy dealing 2 points on the TIE fighters and 3 on the Interceptors on average.

So at this point I'm thinking dropping the game because I just no getting lucky with the dice and have no idea  how to deal with his fleet at all. 

I don't see how Rebels is stronger than the Empire (because that's what I'm hearing all the time)

OK, seriously, this is the main point here. "Rebels suxorz becuz the Imp rolz in 98th percentile of rezultz!"

Dude, if he's rolling that well (that is, you're not exaggerating at all, the TIEs really are putting out that much damage), your only hope is to play chess instead. (Any luck-free game, really.) It doesn't matter a whit what your fleet looks like or what your tactics are. You'll be eaten alive by his dice rolls. All of the advice in this thread is worthless.

You're going to quit the game because he gets such great dice results? Really?

1. His string of good rolls won't last forever. Soon, you will play a game where your dice give you everything you need and he can't hit an ISD from 20 meters directly above it.

2. If he's really always this lucky, it doesn't matter what game you playing against him (other than chess--or checkers), you're going to get curb-stomped.

3. I've had my teeth kicked in so badly that they circled down the bowl 24 hours later. And again. And again.

Oh, wait, and again. If I didn't have such severe Armada-induced brain damage from all the blunt force head trauma, I might remember how many times or when the last time was. Ah, the sweet relief of oblivion ... I have no sympathy for you! None! 

[Gordon Freemann 23]

8 minutes ago, elbmc1969 said:

OK, seriously, this is the main point here. "Rebels suxorz becuz the Imp rolz in 98th percentile of rezultz!"

Dude, if he's rolling that well (that is, you're not exaggerating at all, the TIEs really are putting out that much damage), your only hope is to play chess instead. (Any luck-free game, really.) It doesn't matter a whit what your fleet looks like or what your tactics are. You'll be eaten alive by his dice rolls. All of the advice in this thread is worthless.

You're going to quit the game because he gets such great dice results? Really?

1. His string of good rolls won't last forever. Soon, you will play a game where your dice give you everything you need and he can't hit an ISD from 20 meters directly above it.

2. If he's really always this lucky, it doesn't matter what game you playing against him (other than chess--or checkers), you're going to get curb-stomped.

3. I've had my teeth kicked in so badly that they circled down the bowl 24 hours later. And again. And again.

Oh, wait, and again. If I didn't have such severe Armada-induced brain damage from all the blunt force head trauma, I might remember how many times or when the last time was. Ah, the sweet relief of oblivion ... I have no sympathy for you! None! Quit whining and take it like a man!

To be honest that was a first not usable comment so far. And yes, I'm thinking of switching to something were luck isn't part of the game again, like shooting or martial arts. 

If you have no sympathy for me at all don't answer, sing the "manly" song to somebody who needs it. 
Everybody else was able to give usable advice,  so feel free to not talk to me again and live your life.

With a content count of 3 I think I pretty much do not care about anything you wrote. Good day to you and good riddance. 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Gordon Freemann

[stonestokes 737]

38 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

He just send me his updated list.

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=155045&key=1bdc4cfc953bd7c989861858877936c3

Anybody willing to play that against me?

I have read a lot of good advice hear, but I'm very sure that making them work is harder than it sounds while reading.

I just want to double-check a couple things to make sure you guys have the rules right:

• Darth Vader: He is only using him once per attack, right? He isn't allowed to spend 2 defense tokens to reroll twice. Also, he has to reroll all of his reroll dice at the same time after spending his one defense token.
• SW-7: He isn't using the accuracies to both prevent you from using defense tokens AND adding damage, is he? He is allowed to do one or the other with each accuracy rolled, not both.
• Intel Officer: He has to declare which token he is going to target with Intel Officer before any dice modifications. That includes even adding a die from Concentrate Fire, or adding a die from Quad Battery Turrets, or adding dice from the Dominator title. That means he can't wait until he sees what all those additional dice look like. So the steps should look like this:
  1. Roll attack battery (3 red, 3 blue),
  2. Declare Intel Officer (optional),
  3. Add dice (from CF, QBT, Dominator).

 

[Gordon Freemann 23]

7 minutes ago, stonestokes said:

I just want to double-check a couple things to make sure you guys have the rules right:

• Darth Vader: He is only using him once per attack, right? He isn't allowed to spend 2 defense tokens to reroll twice. Also, he has to reroll all of his reroll dice at the same time after spending his one defense token.

I'm not sure I'll check next time.

7 minutes ago, stonestokes said:

• SW-7: He isn't using the accuracies to both prevent you from using defense tokens AND adding damage, is he? He is allowed to do one or the other with each accuracy rolled, not both.

Only unspend were used by him.

7 minutes ago, stonestokes said:

• Intel Officer: He has to declare which token he is going to target with Intel Officer before any dice modifications. That includes even adding a die from Concentrate Fire, or adding a die from Quad Battery Turrets, or adding dice from the Dominator title. That means he can't wait until he sees what all those additional dice look like. So the steps should look like this:
  1. Roll attack battery (3 red, 3 blue),
  2. Declare Intel Officer (optional),
  3. Add dice (from CF, QBT, Dominator).

We did that wrong for sure.

 

[Norsehound 2,740]

Very brave of him to choose Most Wanted. If you come at him with a list of nearly identical ships and no stand-out advantage, then he'll regret it when he ends up losing one of his ships and goes down to one activation.

9 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Because his fighters have more movement he can attack first due to have a WC. He moves up to 5 squads (one banked token). Each of those can attack with 4 dice. 1 reroll due to swarm equals 2-3 damage each squad for a sum of 10-15. (not counting Valen Rudor with 3 black dice!)

Then I retaliate with my squads and do around 2 damage on the average killing 3 squads and hurting Valen, but in return suffer another 5 damage on average thanks to counter and swarm.

I have traded 15-20 damage vs 10-12.

Typically the Rebels do better in this engagement by tanking the alpha strikes out of fighters. It's usually two activations needed to kill a generic X-Wing without flight controllers helping him (which he doesn't have in this second build since he's taken gunnery teams for Maximum firepower).

Advice here, I'd suggest going to aces (which can use their braces to reduce that alpha and make it more manageable) or somehow slip Toryn Farr in there for some soft swarm abilities. Rebels don't have a good carrier to use with Flight Controllers of their own, though some would suggest using Gallant Heaven with Flight Controllers and Toryn for some good coverage of your fighters (reducing damage by 1)... but that's tricky with two massive batteries ready to crush you.

Since you have CC aces, consider taking Shara Bay. Not only does she have scatter, but her counter is frightening and can do a maximum of 3 damage- perfect for harming fragile hull-3 fighters. As an Imperial player, I'd rather avoid Shara than spend some shots against her. Every TIE you injure with her just gets weaker when your X-Wings are ready to retalliate. Don't be afraid of shooting Shara out on her own to tie up as many fighters as possible- using her as a sacrifice piece is common because her whole point is counter-3 speed 5. You can also use her to pin down part of the enemy forces. Since he doesn't have intel, he's not getting away from her unless he kills her... and faces counter 3 with criticals counting as hits.

Another bit of advice is practice with Yavaris and learn how to use it to deadly effect, since this is another typical counter to insane Imperial squadrons. You don't get the crazy directed damage that Mithel and Fett offer but an X-Wing attacking twice will assuredly kill some squadrons. If you want insurance, take YT-1300s instead since hull 7 means they can take a hit and counter retaliation and still keep going (plus they have a counter of their own).

Last bit on fighters... I just won a 225pt game with two ARQs and three Firesprays against a pair of Liberties. Rogue shouldn't be underestimated, and there's a reason Rebel players love YT-2400s. If you have this as some kind of flanking force coming in against his VSD, then those fighters aren't anywhere near your capital ships if he's off chasing these. Their battery isn't much to look at, but 4 AAA is pretty good AA against a lot of things.

 

22 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

I would need ships with enough firepower to force him to use brace. with the 3 dices I usually have at long range that's not work so far... 

Ships that cause something called Burst Damage (a large amount of damage all at once) are important to have in your inventory. The reason his list works as well as it does is because both ships deal massive burst damage, and he's charging at you to destroy your carriers and let his fighters stop yours. It's a list that works well so long as it sticks together, and I'll admit on paper it looks tough to crack. We've seen large-scale tournament toppers with similar compositions (though running aces fighters, and instead of a VSD it's the much deadlier Demolisher GSD). He's never going to use that brace without a large pool of damage coming at him... and I think in your first list, that source is Salvation... yoked to a Nebulon, with notoriously fragile sides.

Rebel primary candidates for large ISD/VSD killing dice pools are Liberties and MC30s double-arcing with Assault Proton Torpedoes and Ordnance Experts, or any list leaning on Ackbar. A couple of Assault Frigates using Ackbar is a good base, but the problem you'll have (and what Rebels suffer from) is not being able to control all that dice (wheras Vader does easily, as you can see). Still, unless your dice are really weighted against you, you'll put a lot of damage downrange that he'll be forced to brace from. If you have intel officers on both Assault Frigates, you can force him to take the damage or blow the contain and force more damage on him in later turns.

Right around the corner, Catikan and Shollan allow you to re-roll one color of dice. With Ackbar, at least one of your assault frigates with all that dice will be re-rolling every red that won't hit.

32 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

That's were by bad dices come in. Tried once to hit him with all X-Wings. Result: 5 blanks and 2 target locks...

Bad dice are going to happen. I can't tell you the number of times I roll up with flight controller Interceptors with Howlrunner for three criticals, an accuracy, and a hit against a target. Even with one re-roll I'm eeking out 2 damage... against an ace who braces.

One way to look at it is find ways to reduce the opportunities for bad results to screw you over. The reason I love Interceptors to kill enemy fighters, over Defenders, is because with more blue dice I'm locking down defense tokens. With most Rebel fighters having identical defense tokens (braces), you're not so reliant on something like scatter to stay alive. Going all aces at least gives you ways to cut down on the damage that's coming in. You already have Jan, your fighters can use her braces as her ability!

 

36 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

He's coming to me alright because he's not afraid of anything I can throw at him or have thrown at him so far.

Sounds like he's getting cocky. With Most Wanted as one of his objectives, it seems like it. You should find a way to make him pay for it.

Based on what you have, here's a suggestion I've got. See here. Some notes:

• You're bidding to play second. All of your objectives are defensive. With Most Wanted, you choose one of your comms net flotillas and the closer of his two ships. When you shoot, you're adding a blue so you never get a blank die. Contested outpost will draw him to one spot on the map if he wants to score. Solar Corona lets you deploy after him (to mess up his deployment) and you can fly on the sun-side to always have access to your evades.
• Lando's GR75 is supposed to keep your Rogues living longer and try to block the Star Destroyer from jamming up in your face (yes, Flotillas block movement). Lando triggers after Vader, so any nice rolls he has will go to waste as Lando makes his exit. It'll be enough to delay him at least.
• All of your fighters except Shara are Rogue, so they'll move and shoot. No dependence on carriers gives you a lot of flexibility. Also, all of them have defense tokens, so it'll be harder for him to annihilate everyone. Jan Ors will help, and if you get Shara in a place where he's forced to shoot her, that's a lot of pain on his itty bitty hull 3 fighters.
• Ackbar with Concentrate Fire on these Assault Frigates is going to pour a lot of dice downrage. I gave you veteran gunners to stop absolute crap rolls- the focus of this is to try doing as much damage with each shot as you can. It works well with my ARQ list which performs in a similar way.
• Bank some speed tokens and don't be afraid to speed up if his ships are coming in hot. You'll want to stay at long range as long as possible and out-turn him.
• Don't be afraid to use GR-75s as speed 1 blockers. He has no auto-accuracy, so he'll need luck of the dice to shoot you out of the sky. Good luck at long range.
• If you wish to make some edits, I'd recommend swapping out Jamming barrier for Slicer tools (force his ISD to take nothing but Navigate commands) or changing Veteran gunners to Gunnery teams.

From previous experience, 2x A/Fs with an MC80 and Ackbar spelled the death of my beloved 2x VSD + ISD list because of the firepower they put out against heavy Imperial ships. Use it if you're having trouble.

1 hour ago, Gordon Freemann said:

I can cope with loosing. What I can't cope right now, that I get blasted from the board as soon I get into fighting range and I don't know what to do better. If I had a clue what went wrong I could learn, but all I do is loose and don't get better.  Maybe that explains best why I'm frustrated. I'm changing tactics and fleets and loose while all he does is take the same build make it slightly better each time and gun me down. 

I wanna tell you a story.

For about a year I was ramming my head against a particular Yavaris build- the first of the Rieekan Aces list before it got national attention- and getting nowhere. I tried max fighters- I tried big guns with two dice, I tried all heavy ships. Nothing I wanted to try could stop this build, and it was always an exercise in futility. I stuck with it because I was a stubborn imperial player and I didn't want to flip to Rebels all for the sake of an unbeatable list. I refused to believe that the Empire could not take on an unbeatable list.

To this day I still haven't beaten it, or that particular player. In fact, to my knowledege, the only way to defeat a "rieekan aces" build is to take a deeper bid and avoid it. How's that for strategy? and I've been in the game since the beginning!

There are also some lists that just can't be beaten easily... not without constant practice that even I don't exercise. You're right for coming here and asking the community questions.

[stonestokes 737]

Darth Vader: If he has another way to reroll dice, such as with a CF token, he can reroll them with Vader and then reroll one of those again with the CF token. I don't want to mislead you there.

Intel Officer: That is often misunderstood, so it isn't surprising that you missed that one.