How to beat an ISD [Rant]

[geek19 6,557]

My 2 cents: after you've settled on a fleet or two, stick with it for a bit to make sure you understand everything. Mothma might not affect things in game 1, but games 2-4 she might be super important to keeping your ships alive.  Other than that, most of the rest of the advice here is pretty solid.

[TheEasternKing 607]

Why has no one suggested Admiral Ackbar?

The guys squads are all anti Squad, Ackbar on an MC80 with Home one and 3 or 4 TRCr90s will annihilate the ISD/VSD from long range.

Edited January 4, 2018 by TheEasternKing

[Gordon Freemann 23]

9 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Why has no one suggested Admiral Ackbar?

The guys squads are all anti Squad, Ackbar on an MC80 with Home one and 3 or 4 TRCr90s will annihilate the ISD/VSD from long range.

´What would be an acceptable Ackbar fleet be? I seem to get things very wrong about what works and what not.

MC80 with EA and ECM? How to keep out of range with speed 2? Put engine tech ins there? 

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

3 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

´What would be an acceptable Ackbar fleet be? I seem to get things very wrong about what works and what not.

MC80 with EA and ECM? How to keep out of range with speed 2? Put engine tech ins there? 

Engine Techs is very helpful both offensively and defensively on the MC80.  EA is okay, but you'll usually get more mileage out of rerolls.  A pretty standard loadout is Defiance, Engine Techs, Leading Shots, XI7 Turbolasers*, ECM, and maybe Lando or Major Derlin.  Maybe Reinforced Blast Doors or Advanced Projectors too, if you're taking the Assault Cruiser.

*Personally, I think Quad Battery Turrets are phenomenal on the MC80, but I don't see many other people using them very often.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Ardaedhel

[Gordon Freemann 23]

9 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Engine Techs is very helpful both offensively and defensively on the MC80.  EA is okay, but you'll usually get more mileage out of rerolls.  A pretty standard loadout is Defiance, Engine Techs, Leading Shots, XI7 Turbolasers*, ECM, and maybe Lando or Major Derlin.  Maybe Reinforced Blast Doors or Advanced Projectors too, if you're taking the Assault Cruiser.

*Personally, I think Quad Battery Turrets are phenomenal on the MC80, but I don't see many other people using them very often.

How many MC80s and what should the rest look like? Derlin looks nice. Lando not so much, but against Vader it's nice to have

 

[Johnnyreb 81]

Ackbar assault frigates and CR90s would tear that imp list apart, it literally would have no real answers. It's got no bombers so you can drop out the fighters and just max out on Ackbar lovelies.... It has no fast small base ships which is the other only real threat to an Ackbar gun line.

 

 

Toilet bowl and mission him to death....

[PodRacer 1,077]

Gordon Are you restricted to running what you own in real life?

If so could we have a list of the expansions you own?

[Gordon Freemann 23]

1 minute ago, PodRacer said:

Gordon Are you restricted to running what you own in real life?

If so could we have a list of the expansions you own?

A friend of mine makes the German translations so he more or less has access to every ship. 
I mysheld have:

• 2 GR75
• 3 CR90
• 3 Nebulons
• Liberty
• Pelta
• 4 Hamerheads
• 2 AFs
• Heros and Villains
• 2 Squad I
• 2 Squad II
• Corellia Campaign
• 2 MC30

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

14 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

How many MC80s and what should the rest look like? Derlin looks nice. Lando not so much, but against Vader it's nice to have

 

Lando is actually really good for mitigating large pools of modified red dice, which seems to be your issue.  Reds are the most fickle dice, so most likely to come up blank after a reroll.  A nice perk to Lando is that if he rerolls into an accuracy, it's too late for the opponent to spend it, so it's basically another blank face.

I'd only bring one MC80, and use it to anchor a list of smaller ships.  Hammerheads, CR90s, AF2s, and MC30s all work well as these smaller ships, though if you're going with Ackbar I'd recommend a pair of AF2s with Gunnery Teams if you've got them.  In trying to counter this particular ISD/VSD list, you can beef up that force by bringing no squadrons or just a Shara Bey/Tycho screen.  Once you start facing different things, though, be aware that the lack of squadron screen becomes a liability to this archetype.

[RogueCommander 236]

Lots of good advice here so far. A couple of things that occurred to me:

1. MC30’s

2. I’m surprised you’re struggling with his fighters, six X Wings with Biggs and Jan packs a solid AA punch. I’d recommend trying Ten Numb and also giving yourself some space by running boosted comms or 2 VCXs so you can focus more on positioning and keep your carriers a little further back, if you’re going to go Squad heavy.

3. MC30’s.

4.  There is no shame in having your bases and maneuvering tool at the breakfast table and practicing movement options. Also, after a while, my work mates stopped looking at me weird at lunch, so there’s that. Maneuvering just takes practice. Madine might be a useful crutch as you refine your skills.

5. MC30’s.

6.  For squadrons, maybe just try 2-4 generic A Wings with Tycho/Shara and just tie his up. Even 6 generic A Wings is a 66 point screen that should hold him in place for at least 3 turns. They don’t have to win the squad game, just delay him. Send them in pairs (unless you have Shara) and have a laugh.

7. Be patient with your MC30’s and they will payoff big time once you know how to handle them. They are feared for a reason.

8. Most importantly, don’t get down on yourself. The Rebels are hard to master.

[Gordon Freemann 23]

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Lando is actually really good for mitigating large pools of modified red dice, which seems to be your issue.  Reds are the most fickle dice, so most likely to come up blank after a reroll.  A nice perk to Lando is that if he rerolls into an accuracy, it's too late for the opponent to spend it, so it's basically another blank face.

Doesn't his vader counters this?

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I'd only bring one MC80, and use it to anchor a list of smaller ships.  Hammerheads, CR90s, AF2s, and MC30s all work well as these smaller ships, though if you're going with Ackbar I'd recommend a pair of AF2s with Gunnery Teams if you've got them.  In trying to counter this particular ISD/VSD list, you can beef up that force by bringing no squadrons or just a Shara Bey/Tycho screen.  Once you start facing different things, though, be aware that the lack of squadron screen becomes a liability to this archetype.

I know this I wanted to beat him with fighters so that it's clear that even his ISD can be killed by a "normal" list

[Snipafist 7,536]

5 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

Doesn't his vader counters this?

Vader is used prior to when Lando is used.

[Gordon Freemann 23]

1 minute ago, Snipafist said:

Vader is used prior to when Lando is used.

But the defense token is after he applied his target locks, doesn't it?

What do I do not understand?

[Snipafist 7,536]

2 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

But the defense token is after he applied his target locks, doesn't it?

What do I do not understand?

He can only spend his accuracy dice when he's resolving attack effects, which is after his initial roll. Once he's done with that, you can reroll any remaining dice in the pool with Lando. Any dice results that turn up blank or accuracy won't do anything (barring upgrade exceptions like the SW-7 Ion Batteries) because it's past the point where Vader can reroll them or spend them.

[Ardaedhel 10,840]

3 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

But the defense token is after he applied his target locks, doesn't it?

What do I do not understand?

The order of operations here is:

1. Imp:  rolls dice pool

2. Imp:  exhausts a defense token to pay for Vader

3. Imp:  picks up any dice he wants to reroll and rolls them again.

4. Imp:  spends accuracy icons one at a time, picking one of your defense tokens to deny for each one.  Note that this removes the accuracies from his dice pool, so they can't be rerolled.

5. Reb:  Discards Lando.

6. Reb:  Chooses any dice that are still in the pool (so, not spent accuracies) to reroll.  Picks them up and rerolls them.

7. Reb:  Spends any defense tokens that were not targeted with an accuracy during step 4.

[Gordon Freemann 23]

Got it. Thanks.

[scipio83 224]

Try this:

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=155006&key=6739b96b71fb7ae5854247e9348fc80f

You will have more deployments and more activations, meaning you can dictate the terms of the engagement.  All of these objectives are BAD for him, and will give you a big advantage as second player.  If you want to be first player, though, you can be, because you have a higher bid.  And if you do pick first player, then you can simply activate use your activation advantage to force him to move both of his ships before the bulk of yours go - meaning you can send Dodonna's pride in close to Dominator as your last activation, and then activate it first on your next turn, fire, and scoot away before he can shoot back.  Then follow up with Garel's honor.  You'll be able to stick TONS of critical effects on his victory. 

Hera + Rogue Squadron and two X-wings means that you don't need to use squadron activations against him, so he will have to commit his TIEs to an alpha strike against you.  And that's totally fine, because you're going to put your two flotillas close together, and fire blue flak from your combat transport against his TIEs, using Toryn Far for re-rolls.  He may take down 2 or 3 of your squads, but everything he sends near your flotillas will die.  And if he keeps his TIEs close to his star destroyers, then they're not doing him any good. 

[The Jabbawookie 5,610]

2 hours ago, Gordon Freemann said:

With martial arts it was easier. I didn't rely on just one thing (like the perfect position) to land blows or kicks. Even the most basic trick can work. Rebels need finesse, but I'm feeling like I'm trying to beat a broadsword with a dagger or rapier. I need to hit him several times, but he needs to hit me only once. 

I’ve never tried comparing the two, but martial arts is a fantastic opportunity for analogies. Here goes. Imagine if you somehow knew, during a sparring/grappling match, that your opponent would have to make the first move, and even had it narrowed down to a mere handful of possibilities. You can wait for him to extend, then hit while he’s exposed. Activation advantage works the same way. By fielding 2 GR75s out of range entirely (heck, just move them from one end of your deployment zone to the other if needed!) and 2-4 pure combat ships, you wait him out and force him to extend both of his “fists” at once, while hitting nothing. Then, either send in a quick jab with a CR90, or set up a full on “chokehold” by going in speed 3-4 with an Admonition mc30, pulling up alongside him, and delivering a broadside next turn. (A sizable bid for first really helps there, because then you can hit at the start of the next round no matter what.) Don’t go towards his front arc unless you can overshoot it; he’s bigger and he’ll win if you trade front arc punches. No matter what combat ships you field, have a nav token banked turn one on all non-flotillas, and a nav command every time, for training purposes. Not joking, 6 rounds out of 6, unless you have a really good reason. This lets you change your speed by two on a single turn of your choice, and avoid front arcs like the plague. Nav is like keeping a good stance, angle and guard: it’s the default way to better prevent threats and be ready to exploit openings. And lastly, it takes practice and time to become accomplished; falling down, while sometimes unpleasant, is part of the deal. I don’t know which arts you study, so I tried to keep it cross-discipline.  

Edited January 4, 2018 by The Jabbawookie

[Astrodar 594]

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

 

Why has no one suggested Admiral Ackbar?

 

I literally did.

[geek19 6,557]

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

*Personally, I think Quad Battery Turrets are phenomenal on the MC80, but I don't see many other people using them very often.

They're so good!

[Moore1980 233]

You could always try to go toe to toe with his angry pizza's with Mon Cals (MC80's "Winged")  They may not have the health that an ISD has, but they can deal near as much punishment as an ISD.

[Gordon Freemann 23]

3 minutes ago, Moore1980 said:

You could always try to go toe to toe with his angry pizza's with Mon Cals (MC80's "Winged")  They may not have the health that an ISD has, but they can deal near as much punishment as an ISD.

But there lies the problem: Not as much. So what to do, to do more than him. If I take a CR90 to ramp up damage he has the gunnery team that allows him to shoot twice with his front arc.  So what to take that I can put into the front arc of his ISD that will survive for at least a turn?

I've thought about taking the liberty, but it doesn't seem worth it.

[Moore1980 233]

Assault Frigates, with Electronic countermeasures.

 

[scipio83 224]

7 minutes ago, Gordon Freemann said:

But there lies the problem: Not as much. So what to do, to do more than him. If I take a CR90 to ramp up damage he has the gunnery team that allows him to shoot twice with his front arc.  So what to take that I can put into the front arc of his ISD that will survive for at least a turn?

If your strategy is "put more things directly in front of the ISD," then you are going to continue to lose. 

[PodRacer 1,077]

 Disclaimer* I dont play rebels but I Know what i dont like!

I'v put Sato in to start, I can tell you want to make him work for you,  I think Dodonna is ok here too.

You have quite a big deployment advantage here and the start of the battle will be key, u may win/lose in setup if you deploy to his strengths and not your own.

He deploys Ship1 squads squads squads squads Ship2.  You may choose to deploy your ships first and Hold those squads back to keep them free for their 'run' into the battle, Iv gone for a small but durable force of squads, Sato may only proc once so make it good!

Of his missions, Id pick Either Contested outpost or Superior Positions.

Outpost lets you predict his movements, Superior Positions offers no real advantage to his squads, and if you leverage your superior movement charts, Deploying first wont matter as much as the competition between the two of you intensifies. He will soon realise chasing you down  is a futile effort!

 
 

 

lAMBDA COMPLEX1 SATO 

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400  

Commander: Commander Sato

Assault Objective: Most Wanted -Extra dice for your corvettes mainly 
Defense Objective: Capture the VIP . Running away fast isn't an issue for us
Navigation Objective: Salvage Run-  He will score very few tokens, you have the potential to 'farm' a large score

 

MC30c Scout Frigate (69 points)
-  Foresight  ( 8  points) 
-  Intel Officer  ( 7  points) 
-  Ordnance Experts  ( 4  points) 
-  X17 Turbolasers  ( 6  points) 
-  Assault Proton Torpedoes  ( 5  points) 
= 99 total ship cost

Intel for offense or Lando if you would prefer the safety net. Add sato to a salvo and put those blacks out to long range. Intel that brace. Take nav commands to start with. Just practice flirting with his front arcs at long range then pulling up alongside and Unloading the torpedoes.

Next corvettes.. These little beasts do an absurd amount of damage to Isds considering the scale difference in the two.

Proc those trcs 2 or 3 in a turn and watch his ship whittle down to nothing, the key tip is to stay at red range and not slip into blue. 

Sometimes if you know you only have a couple of hours to play you can fall into the trap of playing too narrow with rebels because you dont want to spend 3 turns flankng an Isd, but its worth it.  Put as much distance between you and your opponent at deployment, and power round the long way.  Your opponent has a very suspect victory class in his list, you need to punish him for it. Get round it and unload those trcs, dont worry if u dont get a shot off for 3 or 4 turns going round the long way, the last 3 turns of shooting will likely be enough

Jainas is a must, Dodonnas pride is optional, but never underestimate a nasty crit to ruin a star destroyer. Lose this if u want to guarantee P1

 

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Jainas Light  ( 2  points) 
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  ( 7  points) 
= 53 total ship cost

 

[ flagship ] CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Commander Sato  ( 32  points) 
-  Dodonnas Pride  ( 6  points) 
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  ( 7  points) 
= 89 total ship cost

 

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
-  Turbolaser Reroute Circuits  ( 7  points) 
= 51 total ship cost

Now a speed 3 ISD has a long reach, But these can all move further still, Losing one 50 point corvette to pull his isd out of position allowing you to kill his 120 point victory is a win for you every time. If you can splithis ships up, it will boost your chances of winning further

 

GR-75 Combat Retrofits (24 points)
-  Bright Hope  ( 2  points) 
-  Toryn Farr  ( 7  points) 
-  Slicer Tools  ( 7  points) 
= 40 total ship cost

This might not be the optimal loadout, but slicers are a great way to ruin your opponents best laid plans. 

 

2 VCX-100 Freighters ( 30 points) 
1 Jan Ors ( 19 points) 
1 Ten Numb ( 19 points) 

With No Jerjerrod to call on your opponent will be hard pressed to be able to catch any of your ships flown properly. Dont rush to engage, Play a six turn game, and by turn 4 you should be taking control of your future encounters!  Deploy at an angle never run towards an Isd when you can easily fly round it. 

 

Worst case scenarios-  You mis position your squads and his alpha strike kills your squads.  Keep bright hope between you and your opponent on approach. Numb is only speed two, so you wont be rushing too far Save jans braces for Ten numb, his crit proccing is essential to your success here. You are outgunned in squads, but you have the tools to do real damage to his squads with a smaller investment. If you can work Adar Tallon in to the list for a double Ten Numb hit you are golden.

Your opponent catches you off guard by jumping forwards at speed early. Try not to see this as a problem but an opportunity.  This means his  Victory is now isolated further back up the table. So begin Naving round the isd and heading for the victory.  

So now you out deploy him, out manouvre him and have Identified his weaknesses you should be able to start getting better results.  Get Used to your Navigation charts, they are what win you these encounters....

And we should rendezvous in a couple of months for your 'How do I stop demo killing all my corvettes??' Post =)