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Vineheart01

A thought: EMP and "Droid"

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So i randomly noticed that EMP doesnt specify support, it just says "Droid" or "Vehicle"

This means it can also be used to discard the ID9 droid upgrades, since they are also labeled "Droid"

But heres another thing i noticed randomly: Battle Driods. They say "Character - Droid" on them....so EMP also works on them?
Highly doubt it would justify bringing EMP's but that is now a goal of mine for Legacies, kill a battledroid with an emp lol

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1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

Forgot about them since theyre almost never used.

Surprised this isnt in the faq one way or the other then since technically it could already flatout kill a character.

As Mep said the issue was basically resolved in most peoples eyes when you read the phrasing. Characters have to be defeated, upgrades and supports can be discarded. So since EMP specifically says discard and not defeat that means it does not work on Characters with the Droid subtype. Now your original observation is correct, it can discard the ID9 as it is a droid and able to be discarded.

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03026.jpg    05035.jpg

SUBTITLE (ALSO APPEARS ON CHARACTERS) (p5):
A subtitle defines the location or planet of a battlefield, and helps distinguish different versions of characters from each other.

SUBTYPES (ALSO APPEARS ON CHARACTERS AND UPGRADES) (p7):
Some cards have subtypes listed after the card’s type, such as “Vehicle” or “Weapon.” Subtypes have no inherent rules associated with them, but other cards may reference them.
bullet.jpg When a card refers to a subtype in its text, the subtype is bold.

03058.jpg

 

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I just looked at the rules for overriding upgrades just to make sure it says discard and not replace. It indeed does say discard, so the Seeker droids can be removed with the EMP.

Edited by ozmodon

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Regardless, this is a rules void.  There's nothing in the rules that says you can't discard a character.  Yes, the rules say they stay in play until defeated, but in games like this, card abilities break the basic rules.  RRG should be updated to explain/clarify.

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also like to point out that K2SO and IG-88 both are not labeled a Droid.

Reprogrammed Droid and Assassin Droid are titles not subtypes. So EMP wouldnt work on them anyway.

05009.jpg

These, however, say the droid subtype just like any support or the ID9 droids do.

Which kinda solidifies the opinion that EMP doesnt work on characters imo strictly on principle lol. Why work on these and not k2so or ig88? Costs aside, considering both the other two are 20pt characters and this is a measily 6pt idiot, theyre all droids but only the Battledroids have the subtype called out by EMP's

Edited by Vineheart01

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Characters can be defeated, battle grounds can be replaced and any of the 30 cards in the deck can be discarded or removed from the game. There is no game mechanic that allows for characters, battleground or plots to be put into the deck, be it in the undrawn card deck, discard pile or hand.

With that said, this is FFG and they do all kinds or crazy illogical things, so you never know.

Edited by Mep

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34 minutes ago, kingbobb said:

There's nothing in the rules that says you can't discard a character. 

The Rules also don't say you can't set fire to your opponents deck and smash his dice up.

How bout we play and i bring a lighter and a hammer?

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I could believe that Battle Droids, having a subtype "Droid" including droid as part of their subtitle, might be ruled as susceptible to EMP somehow with an FAQ update to the rules outlining the process for discarding characters. No subtitles have any interaction with the game mechanics, though; there's no precedent for it, so that's a big stretch rather than an ambiguous, conflicting interaction between two rules that *do* exist (or fail to exist). The inclusion of Droid as a subtype on a cheap, expendable character strikes me as the the kind of intentional interaction that might have been thoughtfully included in the game. There's no way a single card will defeat 2/3s of a deck's character points for a cost of 2 resources and a card, though, making the omission on K-2SO and IG-88 make sense in comparison.

Alternately, I'd totally buy that EMP isn't supposed to interact with characters at all, and that's why it explicitly uses the word discard instead of more broad wording that would have included any "Droid" subtyped characters in the future.

Either interpretation involves careful distinctions that make sense, it's just a matter of which card was designed with that careful distinction.

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I don't think there is anything in the rules that specifically states that a character can't be discarded. Obviously there also isn't any rules structure to allow it, but it could be argued that the normal rules cover it (i.e. a card is discarded means it goes to the discard pile).

Now I doubt the intent is for EMP Grenades is to allow you to discard Droid characters; I think the inclusion of the Droid trait is just because FFG are moving towards using traits more, rather than an intentional buff to EMP Grenades.

I think it's far more likely that it's just a stupid interaction that slipped through because FFG have been incredibly sloppy with Destiny. As such I'd expect an clarification, though it could be a case of 'the rules work this way because we say they do', rather than actually working as written. Or hopefully they just errata EMP Grenades, and then don't print anything that maybe lets you discard character ever again.

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THE GOLDEN RULE (p3):
If the text of a card directly contradicts the rules of the game, the text of the card takes precedence. If you can follow both the rules of the game and the text of the card, do so.

If a card says to discard the character what part of the card text can't be followed?

Edited by Amanal

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Please, PLEASE discard one of my Battle Droids!!  because:

There are two ways for a game to end:
• All of a player’s characters are defeated.

If you discard one of my characters without defeating it, you can't possibly win the game :P  

There's also this:

Characters also start the game in play, and remain there until defeated.

Discarding a character would remove it from play without defeating it, so it's not possible.  Yes, the Golden Rule overrides standard rules - but only when it says it does.  This sort of incidental overriding of rules doesn't work, and never does, no matter how many times people try to make it.

 

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7 hours ago, Stu35 said:

The Rules also don't say you can't set fire to your opponents deck and smash his dice up.

How bout we play and i bring a lighter and a hammer?

There's also not a card which instructs you to do so.

I can see arguments both ways as to if EMP Grenade can discard Droid Characters or not.  It didn't matter with IG-88 or K2-SO because they don't have the Droid tag.  (Yeah, it makes no sense for them not to have it, but the game doesn't always make sense.)  I think we need official word from FFG on this point.

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8 hours ago, Jorgyn Ryss said:

I think you are all overthinking this....

No, just pointing out that the rules don't have full coverage because of some new card interactions.  It's inherent to this type of game.  FFG will either clarify that characters can never be discarded, or will explain that a character that ends up in your discard counts as having been defeated.  

Which will then require some explanation for how "play for free" effects interact with a card that has no cost.

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2 hours ago, kingbobb said:

or will explain that a character that ends up in your discard counts as having been defeated.

Which will then require some explanation for how "play for free" effects interact with a card that has no cost.

Forget cost. How do you play a character? You have a Battle Droid in the discard pile. You play Cheat to swap it with a card in your hand. You take an action to play a card from your hand. What happens?

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20 minutes ago, kaffis said:

Forget cost. How do you play a character? You have a Battle Droid in the discard pile. You play Cheat to swap it with a card in your hand. You take an action to play a card from your hand. What happens?

Exactly.  As written, it has no cost, thus you cannot meet the pay the cost requirement to play it so you can't play it.  But then you run into problems with abilities that allow you to play a card for free.  Arguably you could play a character from your hand or discard for free.

Mostly, as written, putting a character into your hand makes you harder to beat.  Your character hasn't been defeated, and unless your opponent has access to a discard ability, they can't make you get rid of that last card.  As written, the game could end up breaking down into an unending stalemate.

Of course, it's more than likely that you can't discard characters, so it's all moot.

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1 hour ago, kingbobb said:

Arguably you could play a character from your hand or discard for free.
 

No, you can't.  Playing a Card includes instructions for what to do based on card type.  There is no option for playing a Character.

People are trying REAAAAAAALY hard here to take "The rules don't say this" and turn it into "Well, you can do this because it's kind of like this other thing so I'm sure you can do it but it's just undefined."  Rules are prescriptive - if something is undefined in the rules, you can't do it.  That's pretty much by definition.

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17 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

No, you can't.  Playing a Card includes instructions for what to do based on card type.  There is no option for playing a Character.

People are trying REAAAAAAALY hard here to take "The rules don't say this" and turn it into "Well, you can do this because it's kind of like this other thing so I'm sure you can do it but it's just undefined."  Rules are prescriptive - if something is undefined in the rules, you can't do it.  That's pretty much by definition.

I'm just applying the rules.  When you go to play a card, you check for the cost.  Normally characters don't have a cost, so you can't get past this step.  But if you have an ability that allows you to play a card for free, then cost is irrelevant, and you could, arguably, play a character from your hand or discard if it's cost is free.  

Granted, the rules also only cover playing an event, support, or upgrade...they don't have playing a character.  But before 1.6, they also didn't have rules for Indirect Damage, so it's not like the rules are written in stone and never subject to change.

But again, my position is that this is just a rules void that has yet to be officially addressed, or even addressed through the normal unofficial (non-RRG) channels aside from a reference to a Discord post.  It won't be a problem because characters can't be discarded.

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13 minutes ago, kingbobb said:

Granted, the rules also only cover playing an event, support, or upgrade...they don't have playing a character.  But before 1.6, they also didn't have rules for Indirect Damage, so it's not like the rules are written in stone and never subject to change.

Yes, and if they change the rules, they change the rules and the rules will be different.  How is this the least bit relevant?  They might add a rule tomorrow that all characters start the game with 3 shields.  Can I just start doing that now?  I mean sure, the rules don't say I should, so it's just a void right?

16 minutes ago, kingbobb said:

But again, my position is that this is just a rules void that has yet to be officially addressed

There are a ton of "rules voids" in the game.  Most people just call them "stuff you can't do".

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47 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

Yes, and if they change the rules, they change the rules and the rules will be different.  How is this the least bit relevant?  They might add a rule tomorrow that all characters start the game with 3 shields.  Can I just start doing that now?  I mean sure, the rules don't say I should, so it's just a void right?

There are a ton of "rules voids" in the game.  Most people just call them "stuff you can't do".

There's a difference between the rules being prescriptive, and having a void.  Shields are not a void.  There's a set rule, and there's nothing right now that contradicts that rule.  This is a totally different case, where there are two different game sources that have an unresolvable conflict.  

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