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eagletsi111

Is it time for FFG to State: Reinforce tokens count as evades tokens for game effects?

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7 hours ago, Icelom said:

You want Jukeing wookies? because that is how you get jukeing wookies...

Oh man. I was 100% down for this idea until I read this. Excluding Epic would be a relatively simple modifier, and giving them anti Wookiee duty would make many niche cards better without making them overpowered. Wes Janson and would be worth taking, and Harpoons could be nerfed without Wookiees completely taking over.

But the idea of Juking Wookiees against anything that isn't teched specifically against them is terrifying, and the problem might be worse than the disease. Also, it would need to be worded tighter than the above example, otherwise things that give evade tokens (e.g. Intensity, Lando Crew, Laetin A'shara etc.) could suddenly give reinforce tokens instead.

These simple sounding solutions often have cascading effects, as frustrating as that is. Unfortunately there's no elegant way around it. The closest I can come up with would be something along the lines of: "For the purposes of game effects that remove evade tokens, treat reinforce tokens as evade tokens", but that is much clunkier than it would be without the restriction, and it doesn't help homing missiles, which specifically prevent the spending of evade tokens. In theory you could use the above wording and errata Homing Missile to something like "Defenders may not add results to their roll." This would make homing missile much better vs things like Finn, which would help justify their "overpricing" vs Harpoons somewhat. But this is still inelegant, and the number of erratas is climbing. Carnor and 4-LOM also talk about spending evade tokens - should they be errataed? At this point, we're talking about one pretty major FAQ changes.

So maybe that suggests a solution? Or perhaps a pair of possible solutions. Part 1 would be to add something like this to the reinforce reference card:

"Using a reinforce token to add an evade result is considered equivalent to spending an evade token for the purposes of game effects".

This would buff 4-LOM, Carnor and Homing Missiles, and make Wookiees vulnerable to hard counters. Then, targeted erratas to specific ships (Wes and Palob would seem the most fitting) which allow them to strip reinforce tokens, which they honesty probably would have had if they'd been in the 100/6 game when they were designed.

Even without the changes to Wes and Palob, just the part about spending an evade token would go some way towards helping by providing a handful of counters. Really though, we have to think about what the ultimate aim here is (or should be). Reinforce only needs to be nerfed so that Harpoons can be nerfed in turn without Wookiees taking over the meta. I'm not sure Carnor and Homing missiles are enough to do that (almost) on their own.

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14 hours ago, Crit Happens said:

They could errata those abilities to remove "green tokens" and define in the FAQ that "green tokens" include focus, evade, and reinforce. 

This would allow them to add future "green tokens" later that could still interact with old abilities. All they would need to do upon release is add the new token to the definition in the FAQ. 

Or instead of '...1 focus, evade, or blue target lock tokens' have it read '...1 of its non-red, non-condition tokens'.

So far, FFG has done an okay job with the token coloring - everything 'bad' is red, everything not is...some other color (blue or green).  (It was actually 100%, IIRC, until the condition tokens came out)

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No,

I want reinforced reworded so it can stop TLT attacks on reinforced sides. If bullseye is the problem (and not surprising given that it doesn't do anything new as far as dice control goes) then it should be the bullseye card that gets an erratum. 

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I really hate the Wookiee gunship. I can’t kill the **** things with my two ship lists and can’t arc dodge them with my aces cos of the aux arc. Plus when they’re crewed up with tacticians and gunners and **** they are such an npe. Can’t kill em, can’t outrun em, just die stressed and frustrated!

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Would you fly Auzitucks if their reinforce token could be easily circumvented? I know I wouldn't. It's a sure fire way to kill another ship altogether.

I know the magic carpet is tough, but there a lot of ways to beat it.

 

Edited by BVRCH

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1 hour ago, Estarriol said:

I really hate the Wookiee gunship. I can’t kill the **** things with my two ship lists and can’t arc dodge them with my aces cos of the aux arc. Plus when they’re crewed up with tacticians and gunners and **** they are such an npe. Can’t kill em, can’t outrun em, just die stressed and frustrated!

Everything you described is a tactical problem. Change tactics. Stop calling for a nerf when your list building and flying obviously play a role. Counters to everything you’re complaining about already exist in the game.

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On 1/2/2018 at 7:53 AM, Firespray-32 said:

It's not worth it in my opinion. You'd cripple the main defensive ability of Huge ships for the sake of slightly nerfing one small gunship full of walking carpets.

Since we are already discussing errata. An exemption could be made for huge ships. 

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1 hour ago, BVRCH said:

Would you fly Auzitucks if their reinforce token could be easily circumvented? I know I wouldn't. It's a sure fire way to kill another ship altogether.

I know the magic carpet is tough, but there a lot of ways to beat it.

 

Define "easily"

Jamming/Scrambler/Wes/Carnor aren't exactly meta-busters right now, it just gives them actual utility against one of the meta ships right now instead of rendering them utterly worthless in wookie matchups.

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The mechanic is fine in standard, imo.

The problem is the Reinforce action was not costed appropriately on this ship. When I play against it, I am consistently surprised that it didnt have 7-8 total health or 0 AGI.

I think this ship should have less health to compensate for Reinforce.

FFG could remove 2 Shields from the ship without too much pain (just out less shields on the ship during tournies).

Seeing as JM5K errata included changing things on printed cards, this doesnt seem farfetched to me if this thing becomes too problematic for too long.

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2 hours ago, jmswood said:

Everything you described is a tactical problem. Change tactics. Stop calling for a nerf when your list building and flying obviously play a role. Counters to everything you’re complaining about already exist in the game.

It’s funny, because I totally missed the part where I asked for a nerf in the part you quoted....

You can dismount from your high horse and stuff your sense of superiority somewhere uncomfortable. 

 

I am capable of changing tactics and competent at the game, but these ships exist as a hard counter to the types of list I fly either through lack of damage output or pure control play. As it happens, I do feel that reinforce on a small ship is too good. I think Lowrick is completely undercosted, and I think the model looks dumb. The game was more fun without them.

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Alternatively we just need an 1 point Empire/scum crew card called "Transoshan Slaver" Ignore all defensive tokens on enemy wookie ships and when you deal damage, deal an extra 1 damage.

 

Balance restored.

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14 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

It’s funny, because I totally missed the part where I asked for a nerf in the part you quoted....

Explicit versus implicit.

You’re whining about the effectiveness of a particular ship in a thread created to cry for a nerf to that ship’s core mechanic. Your concurrence with the thread’s topic didn’t have to be stated explicitly; implication happened regardless of your intent.

20 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

You can dismount from your high horse and stuff your sense of superiority somewhere uncomfortable.

I didn’t explicitly claim any degree of superiority. If it was implied (regardless of my intent) then I apologize. I’m not claiming to be better than you.

32 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

The game was more fun without them.

I think this is the core of your position and I’m not contesting it. Spam lists bore me, and 3x Auzitucks is spam in the same putrid class as 4x TLT Thugs. The Auzituck ranks pretty low on my own list of things that spoil the fun because the ship itself doesn’t have any traits that violate the core mechanics of the game, and the point cost is more balanced than some other offenders I could mention. 

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3 hours ago, jmswood said:

Everything you described is a tactical problem. Change tactics. Stop calling for a nerf when your list building and flying obviously play a role. Counters to everything you’re complaining about already exist in the game.

Don't bother trying to talk reason to Nerf Herders. Thy have only been encouraged by the last NerF.A.Q. and now they honestly believe if they whine enough they will get their way. Heck even the podcasts have been spreading the hate. I remember a podcast that used to be X-wing now all they talk about is the other games, how X-wing used to be fun, hate on a post, and then when it came time to talk about new stuff in the last release they just sluffed it off as if it wasn't important. I actually unsubbed from those podcasts.

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How about asking for buffs? Does that bother you?  Were folks wrong when they said the Tie Advanced was busted and way too bad in wave 1?  We're people wrong when they said the Jumpmaster was busted and way too good in wave 8?  I honestly don't understand your point here.

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On 1/3/2018 at 4:01 AM, AngryAlbatross said:


I need Wes Janson to strip Reinforce tokens.

 

I don’t get this opinion at all. People want to nerf reinforce so a small number of ships can deal with it. I don’t really see how it helps. 

Also Wes Jansen might be in an X-Wing but his ability is kind of broken. He already completely nerfs ordinance on one ship in his arc and you want him to crush Wookies too. 

Jansen kills gunboats, Gunboats kill Wookies Wookies kill Jansen.

Also I’m pretty sure the problem with Wookies is the 180 firing arc. If the had a normal arc with reinforce front or back 180 they probably wouldn’t be a problem. 

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5 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

How about asking for buffs? Does that bother you? ...

Not at all, that is exactly what I have been asking for. But FFG only knows one solution and that is Nerf. Now sure Nerfs are needed but if you are going to nerf something you are going to need to balance it out. With all these FAQs of nothing but nerfs it has set the negative tone on the community so that stupid threads such as this are prevalent through every wave of X-wing.

It is too much though and FFG has placed themselves in a corner. Well there is a lot they need to fix (such as an official list builder app since cards are obsolete or go to a second edition where they could have some sort of rotation of cards).  Well either way the meta is screwed and Nerf Herders believe they are getting their way (which still hasn't stopped the JM5K) . Tell you what, once FFG erratas blaster turret then ask me if something is bothering me.

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51 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

 

I don’t get this opinion at all. People want to nerf reinforce so a small number of ships can deal with it. I don’t really see how it helps. 

Also Wes Jansen might be in an X-Wing but his ability is kind of broken. He already completely nerfs ordinance on one ship in his arc and you want him to crush Wookies too. 

Jansen kills gunboats, Gunboats kill Wookies Wookies kill Jansen.

Also I’m pretty sure the problem with Wookies is the 180 firing arc. If the had a normal arc with reinforce front or back 180 they probably wouldn’t be a problem. 

Wes is a fairly hard counter to ordnance, yes. But he's a long way from broken. He's a necessary card in that he helps Rebels counter the meta in the event that ordnance ever goes too crazy (witness his revival in the Torp boat era). But I will never believe that he could ever be broken while he's in a T-65. Even with Flight Assist Astromech, even with Integrated Astromech, almost nothing in a T-65 chassis is ever going to break the game* (watch FFG bring out a crazy title in the future and prove me wrong though). If he's bothering your list, just kill him. 6 HP behind two dice without autothrusters or anything like that? Not that hard to kill.

That said, you do bring up a good point about the arc. I'm not sure if Wookiees would be playable with just a standard forward arc... they would probably have a K Turn, so really the whole ship would need rethinking, and that's not going to happen. But if reinforce only worked in your primary arc...that might make Wookiees less over the top. They'd still be able to shoot 180, so the dial wouldn't need to change. It's possible.

*Even Biggs. Before Rex and Lowhhrick, Biggs was fine. It was those two ships (primarily Lowhrick) that broke things (hence this thread, I think).

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On 2018-01-02 at 9:49 AM, eagletsi111 said:

So what does everyone think.     Is it time for FFG to state Reinforce tokens, count as Evade tokens for game effects.

 

This makes Bullseye arcs useful, and many other abilities, and crew against this token.      I'm not saying you have to spend it, you still get to keep it and use it for every shot as normal, but effects would actually work against it?

 

 

Yes, please!

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@Marinealver  I get your point of view better now.  Still think you're being a tad hostile but it's the internet so...

I've said for years that blaster turret and twin laser turret should switch ranges.

Until we get app-supported squad building, true balance is going to be a pipe dream.

Two points:

1.  It only takes one over-powered card or combo to warp/ruin the meta.  We've seen ample evidence of this.  The game can have dozens of under-powered cards and still have a healthy diversity of lists.  You get a handful of OP cards and it's wookiees or jumps as far as the eye can see.

2.  Buffs are tricky due to point one.  If you nerf a card too much, you ruin one card or maybe one archetype.  Buff a card too much and you ruin the whole meta.  X7 Defenders as probably the best example.

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