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Heatth

Starting a Hoth campain, I want opinions on a couple of things

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Hello, I am about to start a Hoth campaign (my 3rd) as Imperial and some questions showed up.

I've been suggested to not allow Murne's Company of Heroes and indeed, I fear that, with certain allies, that discount might be too much. Even someone not particularly impressive like Lando would become far too cheap, I fear. 2 threat and 1 xp for an extra activation with 8 health? Sound like a sweat deal compared to most other 1xp abilities. And what about heroes who are already good enough on their price? We haven't tested Leia yet, but I've heard she is pretty good, wouldn't she become overwhelming with the reduced cost? So, what does the community think of that? Is Company of Heroes too powerful with certain allies? If so, what is the best way to fix the problem? Cutting it power in half would be good enough?

Another thing that was suggested to me was to not allow MHD. Apparently despite coming with the expansion, he makes Hoth too frustrating for the Imperial. Apparently most missions don't have a timer or something like that? So having a dedicated healer would allow the Rebels to turtle efficiently, which not only makes life much harder for the Empire but also makes the game boring overall. So, again, does the community agrees with that?

Aside that, I've been also suggested to award the maximum XP when a player loses 2 story missions in a row, to lower the deployment cost of expensive (+10) heroes and villains of the first 2 waves and to use the new campaign rules from the Jabba expansion (about agenda and Rebel upgrade). From what I could tell searching the forum most people seem to support these, but I am always open to hear counterarguments. Or any other suggestion, really.

Thanks in advance!

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13 hours ago, Heatth said:

Is Company of Heroes too powerful with certain allies?

You gotta remember that: 1) the ally mission has to be drawn 2) the heroes have to win mission. Plus, especially with the Hoth campaign, the rebel players will probably prioritize the threat missions over the ally missions. Honestly, I've never heard anyone complain about this class card.

13 hours ago, Heatth said:

Another thing that was suggested to me was to not allow MHD.

 @a1bert is a strong supporter of this house rule. :P Perhaps he can chime in on this. My gaming group's Hoth campaign, which included MHD, was pretty close.

13 hours ago, Heatth said:

Aside that, I've been also suggested to award the maximum XP when a player loses 2 story missions in a row, to lower the deployment cost of expensive (+10) heroes and villains of the first 2 waves and to use the new campaign rules from the Jabba expansion (about agenda and Rebel upgrade). From what I could tell searching the forum most people seem to support these, but I am always open to hear counterarguments. Or any other suggestion, really.

Yes to all three things

The Designer of the Core box comments on both snowball mitigation and the agenda cards/rebel upgrade stage

 

 

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I havent had any problems with murn, and have actually found him to be one of the weaker heroes. I dont think he should be hamstrung in any way. MHD9 is an interesting thought, but I don't think he's OP. Think of it this way; he needs to take an action to search for a medical card which is the equivilant of taking an action to rest. In some cases, taking an action to rest is actually better. If the group doesnt have MHD9, they can just take actions to rest instead and still slow the game down. It's up to you as the imperial player to keep the pressure on so they feel like they can't take the time to rest. I also agree with all of the last points.

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40 minutes ago, KotasMilitia said:

I havent had any problems with murn, and have actually found him to be one of the weaker heroes. I dont think he should be hamstrung in any way. MHD9 is an interesting thought, but I don't think he's OP. Think of it this way; he needs to take an action to search for a medical card which is the equivilant of taking an action to rest. In some cases, taking an action to rest is actually better. If the group doesnt have MHD9, they can just take actions to rest instead and still slow the game down. It's up to you as the imperial player to keep the pressure on so they feel like they can't take the time to rest. I also agree with all of the last points.

It's not "MHD-19 is OP". I think it's "MHD-19 is OP in Hoth campaign" because Hoth is known to have a lack of round timer and Rebels can just take as many actions as they want

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MHD-19 is powerful in the early missions to give focused to make the attacks of other rebels better (and stall activations so the IP needs to waste theirs), is powerful mid-campaign because recovering damage out of your activation relieves the heroes with the best weapons to use them instead of resting, and after MHD-19 saves for Bacta Radiator the rebels are unstoppable (recovering up to 8 damage per round undoes what the imperial figures can do before being defeated).

It's simply worse in the Return to Hoth where there are more missions without time limit or the imperial player has the time limit instead.

I'm still playing the third campaign (two and a half missions to go) with MHD-19 and the snowball is an avalanche. We have pretty big boosts to Indomitable (double health), I'm switching reserved groups, and +1 threat level to make the missions even a little interesting.

That's against top rebel players and non-realtime play though. Face-to-face the rebels would do more mistakes and with the best imperial classes and good preparation you might be able to hold on. But do not lose the first side mission...

Edited by a1bert

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2 hours ago, Armandhammer said:

@a1bertYou gotta remember that: 1) the ally mission has to be drawn 2) the heroes have to win mission. Plus, especially with the Hoth campaign, the rebel players will probably prioritize the threat missions over the ally missions. Honestly, I've never heard anyone complain about this class card.

These 2 points are kinda irrelevant because Murne can just buy the card when the Rebels get the ally. It is just 1 xp, afterall, she can literally buy with the mission's XP reward.

As I said, it was recommended to me to not allow that ability. And although I haven't found anyone on this forum "complaining", I've seem some people boosting about its power and how the Rebels would always bring some powerful allies (Jedi Luke and Leia, mostly) to great effect. It just seems a bit swingy for just 1xp. Like, Gideon's mission reward is half the power and just for an specific ally. Sure, it has another benefit, but I would expect a reward to be more powerful than a 1xp card anyway.

1 hour ago, ricope said:

It's not "MHD-19 is OP". I think it's "MHD-19 is OP in Hoth campaign" because Hoth is known to have a lack of round timer and Rebels can just take as many actions as they want

Yeah, that. It was recommended to me to not use MHD in Hoth. He is fine in other campaigns, I assume.

32 minutes ago, a1bert said:

That's against top rebel players and non-realtime play though. Face-to-face the rebels would do more mistakes and with the best imperial classes and good preparation you might be able to hold on. But do not lose the first side mission...

Well, my Rebel's aren't exactly experts. But, then again, nether am I.

My biggest fear is that he incentivize a boring play style. Without time limit the Rebels already benefit from going slow, thanks to rest, so I don't want the extra healing to reward turtling even more.

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59 minutes ago, Heatth said:

My biggest fear is that he incentivize a boring play style. Without time limit the Rebels already benefit from going slow, thanks to rest, so I don't want the extra healing to reward turtling even more.

Just to clarify, there are very few missions without a time limit or a mechanism that acts as a time limit, even in Return to Hoth.  I think MHD is fine in Return to Hoth or any other campaign.  The hero I would be more concerned with than MHD or Murne is Gideon with his insane action economy.

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I just finished a Hoth campaign and while the Rebels won the campaign (the finale is heavily tilted in their favour in my opinion) I did win 6 of the 10 missions and most were quote close.  I bought Imperial Industry around the middle of the campaign (just before the interlude I think) and that helped me win a couple of missions.

The rebels had MHD, Verena, Fenn & Diala and min-maxed their way through the item deck.  Luckily I severely restricted their funds through denying crates, etc.

The lack of time pressure in a lot of the missions really helps the Rebels, and MHD (particularly with the Radiator) does make it difficult to wound them. It was frustrating watching him basically undo all the damage I'd laid down in the previous turn.  He also really helps keep Allies alive, thus giving the Rebels more chance of maintaining an activation advantage.  I don't think I'd ban or nerf him though.

I  do think he'd combo very nicely with Murne and his ability to bring cheap allies though... getting even more value from the 1xp and threat you pay to bring them.

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On 1/2/2018 at 5:50 AM, Heatth said:

Another thing that was suggested to me was to not allow MHD. Apparently despite coming with the expansion, he makes Hoth too frustrating for the Imperial. Apparently most missions don't have a timer or something like that? So having a dedicated healer would allow the Rebels to turtle efficiently, which not only makes life much harder for the Empire but also makes the game boring overall. So, again, does the community agrees with that?

My players are using MHD in the Hoth campaign (with Vinto, Jyn and Shyla). We still have 3 missions to go. Basically, when it is a mission without a timer, it's impossible for me to win. Vinto, Jyn and Shyla clear more thread each round than I receive. And MHD is in the middle of them healing them all the time. Can't count the number of times I got one of them to 1 wound left, only to have MHD do a full heal on them and clear my work. If you can't wound a hero in one round, then forget about it. MHD is better than the rest action of the heroes as the heroes can keep on using their powerful attacks and only 1 hero needs to do the resting.

Timer can be anything. A real round limit is ok, but also missions with increasing thread. Right now, I'm at 1 win vs 7 losses and the only missions that where close was with a limit. So I think MHD is fine in campaigns with a round limit. In hoth, he's frustrating to play against.

Edited by Eddie

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IMHO, I think that as a game overall, there are probably more rules as written that bennefit the imperial player. In other words, if two people of equal skill were playing against each other, I think the imperial player would have an advantage. While it is true that MHD makes things significantly more difficult for the imperial player in Hoth, I think that there are definately other things in different campaignes that give an edge to the imperial player. Like subversive tactics for example. In any campaign, that would be the best choice for the imperial player, and makes life extremely difficult for the rebels.

Further, I would suggest not only wounding MHD first, but actually eliminating him. Yeah, it seems counter intuitive when missions specify wounding heroes, but sometimes it is more beneficial for you to remove a figure from the mission before wounding others. Like in a mission where the win condition for the heroes is to kill a specific unique villain, I would eliminate Ko-Tun before wounding the other heroes simply because she could remove a die from my defense pool when someone attacks. If MHD is a problem, remove him from the board in those missions.

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To be honest, as the Imperial player, I hate Company of Heroes.  But as a game owner, it's a great card that seem to make the experience a lot of fun for the Rebels.

 

The problem with allies is that a lot of them are just way too expensive.  Spending more than 8 threat on a single figure is often a terrible decision- spending even more (up to 18!) is just a waste.  Even if you get someone as powerful as Vader, you're still getting one attack per round max (two if "Brutality" is played, but that can be easily worked around).  Sure, Vader's attack is strong, but for that same cost you could but two regular stormtrooper groups and a heavy stormtrooper group.   There's just not comparison there.  And yeah, of course the stormtroopers are more fragile, but they can also be reinforced.  With Vader, once he's defeated, all that threat is gone.

 

The Empire can, of course, reduce the cost of their own villains and units, too.  In fact, I love to do that, because I enjoy playing thematically, so cost reduction and threat surges tend to be my favorite strategy.  So, it's not like the Rebels have a power the Empire lacks.

 

In a way, I'd say that for some allies, Company of Heroes is the only way to get them into play responsibly.  

 

The only caveat is this- some newer heroes are not nearly as horrendously overpriced as those that came out earlier.  For example, you could use it to put Hera on the field for absolutely free.  However, while Hera is a decent unit (7 health and a BGY attack) she's hardly as game changing as some other allies, so I don't it breaks the game too badly.

 

 

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1 hour ago, subtrendy2 said:

The only caveat is this- some newer heroes are not nearly as horrendously overpriced as those that came out earlier.  For example, you could use it to put Hera on the field for absolutely free.  However, while Hera is a decent unit (7 health and a BGY attack) she's hardly as game changing as some other allies, so I don't it breaks the game too badly.

But that is the thing, right? The newer allies are better costed, which means Company of Heroes benefit them disproportionally more. Also, as I said, my group is already lowering the cost of the older allies anyway, so pretty much your whole point is moot.

At any rate, I started my campaign already. I am playing with Armored Onslaught and the heroes are Davith, Loku, MHD and Fenn. I won the introduction and they won the Threat mission  Scouring the Homestead. None of the missions had timer and, in both cases, it was very close. MHD wasn't too much of a problem but, of course, he didn't have any ability yet, so his healing potential was very limited.

I am kinda disliking the "wound all heroes" missions for another reason, though: they seem to invariably lead to a game of chicken in the end. When there is only one hero left, they are very incentives to just run away with two moves while the others take care of the missions/enemy figures. Heroes by default have a much easier time moving around them the Empire and, by the end of the mission, the imperial player doesn't really have enough threat of figures to surround it properly. At last with a timer the heroes need to rush to do something, so the game keep moving. Fortunately, it seems the next mission has a more interesting objective, but I worry about the rest of the campaign.

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5 minutes ago, Heatth said:

But that is the thing, right? The newer allies are better costed, which means Company of Heroes benefit them disproportionally more. Also, as I said, my group is already lowering the cost of the older allies anyway, so pretty much your whole point is moot.

Well, they're better costed, but also less powerful.


Don't get me wrong, Vader is a beast.  Especially in campaign, since the Empire probably has few targets to deal damage to, anyway.

 

And Chewbacca is, both literally and figuratively, a beast.  

 

Even the overcosted units aren't garbage, and in some warped ways, their cost probably is at least roughly adequate to what you get (depending on how you play them, of course).  But honestly, spending that much threat on any unit, regardless of its attributes, is just dangerous.

 

With Hera, for instance, you still just get a single figure, and she's significantly worse than Vader.  Like, so much worse that it's not even funny (though, obviously pretty thematic, much as I like her).  

 

So, by "better costed" we sort of mean that things are better balanced, but I think it also generally just means that we're getting more units for cheap, even if they're not top of the line.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyway, have fun with RtH!  Armored Onslaught is a ton of fun.  Be sure to pick up Mortar- it's a pretty mean card!

 

Also, in regards to wounding all heroes- that's why spawn points are hidden information (at least, until you spawn to them).  If a hero runs off on his own, he could very well be running off alone directly into all new incoming units, while the rest of the heroes stay uselessly on the other side of the map, unable to help their friend who ran too far away.

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1 hour ago, a1bert said:

Easier said than done. How many times did you manage that? ;)

 

I did it most every mission when I tried. MHD can't use all his medical cards on himself. And the only time I've won that campaign as the imperial player (3 times as imp, once as rebels) i eliminated MHD in the finale. 

Edit:

I'm not saying it's easy, I think this is the most difficult campaign for the imp player. Just offering solutions that have worked for me.

Edited by KotasMilitia

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Regarding MHD, keep in mind that his healing ability isn't endless, it's limited to the 6 medical cards in the supply deck that can recover health, and in some cases has to take 2 actions to heal someone. I have not found him to be particularly game breaking in the Hoth missions that lack a time limit, eventually he runs out of medical cards with which to heal, and the healing found on his xp cards is either extremely limited or very high up on the XP cost spectrum. 

Keep in mind while you are playing this campaign that the first half is skewed in favor of the Rebel players, but once you hit the Intermission, the campaign will get much harder for them and much easier for you, so try to resist the temptation to make difficulty adjustments to the entire campaign based on the results of some early missions. 

 

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2 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Regarding MHD, keep in mind that his healing ability isn't endless, it's limited to the 6 medical cards in the supply deck that can recover health, and in some cases has to take 2 actions to heal someone. I have not found him to be particularly game breaking in the Hoth missions that lack a time limit, eventually he runs out of medical cards with which to heal, and the healing found on his xp cards is either extremely limited or very high up on the XP cost spectrum. 

Keep in mind while you are playing this campaign that the first half is skewed in favor of the Rebel players, but once you hit the Intermission, the campaign will get much harder for them and much easier for you, so try to resist the temptation to make difficulty adjustments to the entire campaign based on the results of some early missions. 

 

Problem is, after the intermission he'll have his important xp cards.

 

I might try to kill him of next time, though the heroes will probably finish the mission before I get to that point ;-)

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5 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

Well, they're better costed, but also less powerful.

Excen't they aren't? That is what "better costed" means. They are costed more fairly based on their cost. Meaning they are more powerful than than older allies/villains of same, or even higher, cost.  Like, I wouldn't consider Leia to be weaker than Han Solo, despite her costing 4 threat less. She is more fragile (though she can heal), but she is much deadlier. Similarly, Kayn Somos is not particularly stronger than Agent Blaise, despite costing more.

5 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

Also, in regards to wounding all heroes- that's why spawn points are hidden information (at least, until you spawn to them).  If a hero runs off on his own, he could very well be running off alone directly into all new incoming units, while the rest of the heroes stay uselessly on the other side of the map, unable to help their friend who ran too far away.

Then the hero activates first and runs away again. Because even a slow hero can move a minimum of 8 spaces without straining or using abilities. No empire figure can keep up with that and still shot

Like, that situation literally happened in the last mission. But it was pointless. I didn't had enough threat to place units near them and in their hypothetical scape route. And, anyway, even if I could (I almost got him earlier that mission) it doesn't change the fact that this makes the mission annoying. Again, it is a game of chicken, it wasn't fun by that point.

 

About killing heroes (in particular MHD). The problem is that doing so it is kinda anti-fun in the first place. =/ In particular if I do it early enough to matter. It removes a player from the game, which is a thing to avoid, in my opinion.

 

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On 2.01.2018 at 11:14 PM, Heatth said:

 

 

Oh, yeah. We already used Gideon last time, so we will probably experiment with other people.

IMO, Murne with Company of Heroes and best hero avaible is still 2 times weaker than Gideon. 

He is the only hero my group ever house-ruled as forbidden in certain campaigns. And now, we have a deal: if my group takes Gideon, I can take any imperial deck I want. If they dont, I will not take Hutt Mercenaries and the other annoying deck (I forgot the name, the deck that is about strain).

 

I think that Murne without Company of Heroes would be just pathetic

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15 hours ago, Heatth said:

Excen't they aren't? That is what "better costed" means. They are costed more fairly based on their cost. Meaning they are more powerful than than older allies/villains of same, or even higher, cost.  Like, I wouldn't consider Leia to be weaker than Han Solo, despite her costing 4 threat less. She is more fragile (though she can heal), but she is much deadlier. Similarly, Kayn Somos is not particularly stronger than Agent Blaise, despite costing more.

 

Like I said, in a way I agree, but I think that you have to consider that getting any group on the board for paltry threat is a win, due to two words: activation advantage.  You can never discount how important that can be.

 

Quote

 

Then the hero activates first and runs away again. Because even a slow hero can move a minimum of 8 spaces without straining or using abilities. No empire figure can keep up with that and still shot

Like, that situation literally happened in the last mission. But it was pointless. I didn't had enough threat to place units near them and in their hypothetical scape route. And, anyway, even if I could (I almost got him earlier that mission) it doesn't change the fact that this makes the mission annoying. Again, it is a game of chicken, it wasn't fun by that point.

 

I mean, I'm sorry you had a bad time, and similar things have happened to me a few times in the past over the course of 5 campaigns.  But there are ways to work around it.  Nexus, for example, can easily keep up with heroes while attacking.  And as long as you have decent accuracy, you should be able to move and shoot a hero that double moved.  

 

Or, alternatively, you could simply try to finish off the heroes that are going for the objective.  If the Rebels want to handicap themselves by wasting one entire activation each turn, they can be your guest.

 

However, I think that does bring us to this point:

Quote

About killing heroes (in particular MHD). The problem is that doing so it is kinda anti-fun in the first place. =/ In particular if I do it early enough to matter. It removes a player from the game, which is a thing to avoid, in my opinion.

Totally agreed.  The great thing about "wounded" is that it discourages player elimination.  I'm pretty sure over all campaigns I've played, I've eliminated a player only once.

Edited by subtrendy2

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2 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:
Quote

About killing heroes (in particular MHD). The problem is that doing so it is kinda anti-fun in the first place. =/ In particular if I do it early enough to matter. It removes a player from the game, which is a thing to avoid, in my opinion.

Totally agreed.  The great thing about "wounded" is that it discourages player elimination.  I'm pretty sure over all campaigns I've played, I've eliminated a player only once.

I agree this is anti-fun but I find it to be pretty effective.  I think it often gives you a better chance to win by withdrawing one hero than trying to wound two different heroes (it's also easier to withdraw a wounded hero than wound a healthy hero due to reduced Speed and Endurance). 

Even when playing less competitively, I sometimes withdraw a hero once or twice just so the Rebels know how it works and can't take advantage of the fact that I won't attack wounded heroes.  If they know you won't withdraw wounded heroes, they can abuse this which would make some missions nearly impossible for the Imperial player (granted, your Rebels may be different than mine).  It forces wounded heroes to play more conservatively (which is thematic I think) instead of playing as if they're invincible.  I mean, they are wounded after all...

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1 hour ago, machfalcon said:

Even when playing less competitively, I sometimes withdraw a hero once or twice just so the Rebels know how it works and can't take advantage of the fact that I won't attack wounded heroes.  If they know you won't withdraw wounded heroes, they can abuse this which would make some missions nearly impossible for the Imperial player (granted, your Rebels may be different than mine).  It forces wounded heroes to play more conservatively (which is thematic I think) instead of playing as if they're invincible.  I mean, they are wounded after all...

Totally agree. Rebels need to understand that a wounded hero is a target and need to protect them. Wounded heroes are not to be treated as if they are now invincible for the rest of the mission

Besides just the caution factor, it is more effective for the Imperial to withdraw a hero than to wound 2 (same amount of damage usually). They are costing the rebels 2 actions per round and usually can stall them out then. Now if there are already 2 wounded Rebels, I don't know if it is better to withdraw one or wound a 3rd and go for wound victory. Depends on the situation

 

As for play experience, yes it can suck to lose your character. This is one reason I favor playing with only 2 or 3 rebels and having them control 4 heroes (3p, each person has 1 with a floater one by group. 2p, each gets 2). Also helps with organization logistics when there are less players

Edited by frotes

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