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thecactusman17

"Normal" Imperials are dumb as a box of rocks? (early campaign spoilers)

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I just ran a few missions for my brothers and some old friends as it's been a few years since we last did our Edge of the Empire campaign and with everyone in town, it seemed like a great way to pass a holiday weekend.  It was my first time actually playing with the new LOTA app.  I assisted the app with Imperial control and also played as the Rebel Trooper support unit.  With only limited play experience I decided to put the setting on "Normal" difficulty.

The app proceeded to repeatedly give instructions, especially for Imperial Officers, to repeatedly target Rebels who were either completely blocked off and even for models that were on the opposite side of the map from the nearest attacker.  During the second mission, for example, the Imperial Stromtroopers were repeatedly forced to scurry away from advancing Rebel players into the docking bay while the Imperial Officer repeatedly demanded they shoot Gideon Argus - who was still in the back corner of Garbage Dump wading through the muck back to the hallway.  This was just the most obvious of a number of boneheaded moves, played on repeat.  Towards the end of the play session, my group was actively refusing to target the Officers because they were so comically ineffective as to be an active hindrance to the Imperial side.  Other Imperial units did similar things, being so specific in their target selection that they were frequently forced to reposition well out of effective range to actually do anything of value.  In the above example, I'd have 3 actions demanding I attack a specific character such as Gideon followed by movement commands that caused me to flee even further away if possible due to other Rebel heroes being so close.

Is this because of the game difficulty, or am I misunderstanding something in the rules?  I'm hesitant to throw my players into "Hard" mode but I may not have a choice if this is the quality of opposition we'll face on followup matches.

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Are you considering the rules for Target Priority under Activation Instructions in the rule book (pg 15)?

Quote

TARGET PRIORITY
Most instructions include a figure or object to target, which is
enclosed by “« »” brackets. The target may be specifically named
(e.g., “Gaarkhan”) or chosen by some criteria (e.g. “the hero with
the highest speed”). If two or more targets satisfy the criteria, the
Imperial figure chooses the closest of those targets.
Sometimes, the Imperial figure’s intended target is not legal. For
example, it might be instructed to attack the hero with the most
health remaining but does not have line of sight to that hero. In
these situations, the figure chooses a legal target that best satisfies
the criteria. If no target satisfies the criteria or if no criteria was
given, the Imperial figure targets the closest Rebel figure.
Text outside of the “« »” brackets is absolute and should be
resolved as written.

So if an Imperial figure is instructed to target a Rebel figure across the map that it doesn't have line of sight to, it then targets the next best target.  If there are no other targets, the next actions should instruct the Imperial figure to advance closer to the Rebel figure.

Edited by dwaynedauzat

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4 minutes ago, dwaynedauzat said:

Are you considering the rules for Target Priority under Activation Instructions in the rule book (pg 15)?

So if an Imperial figure is instructed to target a Rebel figure across the map that it doesn't have line of sight to, it then targets the next best target.  If there are no other targets, the next actions should instruct the Imperial figure to advance closer to the Rebel figure.

Ok, so if they could see Gideon but he was wildly out of range they would still be required to attack, but if they can't see him they attack someone closer?

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21 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Ok, so if they could see Gideon but he was wildly out of range they would still be required to attack, but if they can't see him they attack someone closer?

As I see it, if Gideon is in line of sight but I know that my dice and surge abilities could never provide enough accuracy, I might consider him not to be a "legal target" and would instead attack a Rebel figure that better satisfies the criteria (someone that I could actually hit).  I've not encountered many sections of a map that was so long that I could "see" a target but not potentially "hit" it.  Most attack actions instruct the player to move the Imperial figure closer before attacking.

Edited by dwaynedauzat

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14 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Ok, so if they could see Gideon but he was wildly out of range they would still be required to attack, but if they can't see him they attack someone closer?

The concern regarding Imperial attacks and range has already been brought up:

App rules question - "Attack" and accuracy

The safest bet is to simply apply the spirit of the Imperial Rule in this situation: If the figure is so far away that the Imperial attacker needs a miraculous role to reach the specific target, simply follow target priority and move on to the next best target. If it's too close either way, simply flip a coin/roll a dice to make the decision for you.

And yes, Target priority is a huge part of the game. Remember:

1. Follow the instructions, attack the target indicated in the: << >>

2. If the specified target cannot be attacked, move on to the next target that best satisfies the criteria

3. If no other target/no criteria given, attack closest rebel figure

 

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3 minutes ago, Armandhammer said:

If the figure is so far away that the Imperial attacker needs a miraculous role to reach the specific target, simply follow target priority and move on to the next best target.

Are you saying that if an Imperial figure could potentially hit a Rebel figure but the odds are slim then I could choose an easier Rebel target?

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3 minutes ago, dwaynedauzat said:

Are you saying that if an Imperial figure could potentially hit a Rebel figure but the odds are slim then I could choose an easier Rebel target?

There’s no hard and fast on rule of this. But context is important. For example, if it’s the last remaining healthy hero I’d let the AI figure take the shot even if the odds of landing the attack are slim. 

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Just now, Armandhammer said:

There’s no hard and fast on rule of this. But context is important. For example, if it’s the last remaining healthy hero I’d let the AI figure take the shot even if the odds of landing the attack are slim. 

I know the app may not always make the best choice we humans would make, but if the target is "specifically named", is a legal target and I know there is a chance of hitting it, I always try to obey the criteria no matter the odds.  I apply the "Imperial Rule" only when there are multiple valid and legal options.

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6 hours ago, dwaynedauzat said:

Are you considering the rules for Target Priority under Activation Instructions in the rule book (pg 15)?

So if an Imperial figure is instructed to target a Rebel figure across the map that it doesn't have line of sight to, it then targets the next best target.  If there are no other targets, the next actions should instruct the Imperial figure to advance closer to the Rebel figure.

My understanding is that "the hero with highest health" is a criteria, instead "Gideon" is a named target. Even if you want to consider "Gideon" as a criteria, such criteria includes "Gideon" and only him in the pool of possible targets. So if you can't attack Gideon for whatever reason the criteria can't match any other target having the same name. In other words the imperial figure skips the attack.

Different story is "highest health" because in that case you can always match a target as long as you have line of sight and range to a hero.

And yes it's dumb as a box of rocks, play it the classic way if you are 5 people.

Edited by Golan Trevize

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4 hours ago, Golan Trevize said:

My understanding is that "the hero with highest health" is a criteria, instead "Gideon" is a named target. Even if you want to consider "Gideon" as a criteria, such criteria includes "Gideon" and only him in the pool of possible targets. So if you can't attack Gideon for whatever reason the criteria can't match any other target having the same name. In other words the imperial figure skips the attack.

This is incorrect. If Gideon cannot be a valid target you choose the other nearest valid target instead.

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5 hours ago, Golan Trevize said:

My understanding is that "the hero with highest health" is a criteria, instead "Gideon" is a named target. Even if you want to consider "Gideon" as a criteria, such criteria includes "Gideon" and only him in the pool of possible targets. So if you can't attack Gideon for whatever reason the criteria can't match any other target having the same name. In other words the imperial figure skips the attack.

Rules clearly state that if you can not fulfill the criteria given by the instruction targeting a specific figure named in "<< >>" brackets, the target then changes to the closest Rebel figure.  Page 15 of the rule book gives an "Example of Engaging."  It specifically targets "<< Diala >>", but because the criteria can not be fulfilled it defaults to the closest Rebel figure.  The same would go for an attack action or any other action that specifically targets a figure by name.  The action is not skipped.

Text within "<< >>" brackets may change but text outside of the "<< >>" brackets is absolute and should be resolved as written.

Edited by dwaynedauzat

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5 hours ago, Golan Trevize said:

My understanding is that "the hero with highest health" is a criteria, instead "Gideon" is a named target. Even if you want to consider "Gideon" as a criteria, such criteria includes "Gideon" and only him in the pool of possible targets. So if you can't attack Gideon for whatever reason the criteria can't match any other target having the same name. In other words the imperial figure skips the attack.

Different story is "highest health" because in that case you can always match a target as long as you have line of sight and range to a hero.

And yes it's dumb as a box of rocks, play it the classic way if you are 5 people.

I think there is an important point here that everyone is missing....

Why on earth are you using Gideon?!?

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On 2/1/2018 at 4:20 PM, Gallanteer said:

Why on earth are you using Gideon?!?

Why not? I made some math on another thread by the last mission he is as effective as having 2.25 heroes in one.

P.S.: Thanks everyone for the tip on the rule I misunderstood.

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