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thestag

Legion Pricing

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I noticed that Legion has an MSRP of $89.95. That's $10 less than the MSRP for IA. That leaves me with 2 questions:

1) Is FFG undercutting itself in order to create interest in Legion over IA?

2) Is the base of Legion worth just %10 less than IA? I haven't been following legion as closely as others since there is no chance I will be getting into Legion (I only play IA for campaign). But, from what little I have seen, it doesn't look like Legion has even half as much in the core as IA does.

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Legion is a massive gamble for FFG that it cannot afford to screw up, hence the price cut. It is in direct competition to other tabletop war games, mainly 40k, rather than IA which is primarily a campaign based board game which they can resurrect easily because of the existing fan base.

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I actually think Legion’s success is a bit of a long shot.  

 

FFG is taking a bit of a gamble going with 3x6 heavy terrain board and true line of sight. This is going to be a huge barrier to the board game/Star Wars fan crew that FFG usually caters to.  And as far the beer and pretzels wargamers.... they are so firmly entrenched in 40k, supplanting that history is nearly impossible. If you look at any other successful war gamer right now, they all exist in little niche areas around 40k

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Also, a lot more cardboard in the form of map tiles in IA. A lot more cards in IA for the campaign. I wouldn't be comparing those prices as IA has so much more in the box. Instead compare the prices of a until like the AT-ST between the two games. You'll figure out which game is more expensive in a hurry.

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I think the product was targeted at $89 in order to lower the sticker shock of the purchase $99 common to FFG core sets.

Price points are often set to fit a business model. So they know how many of a box of a particular size and price will sell so they then fill up the box untill it has enough stuff in it to meet the price point.

if they feel good about the performance of the $89 box I suspect future large box releases from FFG will target that instead of $99. 

 

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Similar # of figures, the bulk of production costs, in both games.

More printed materials (cardboard and cards) in IA. But certainly the cheapest part of included items.

AT-ST Expansion:
Legion - $49.95
Imperial Assault - $19.95

Storm Troopers Expansion:
Legion - $24.95 (7 troopers)
Imperial Assault - $14.95 (3 troopers)

General Veers - $12.95 (1 unit)
General Sorin - $9.95 (1 unit)

The pricing tier for the troopers sounds about right. Even though you get more than twice as many troopers in Legion, it's still only 1 box that needs to be packaged, sealed, shipped/distributed and accounted for.

It's the pricing of the AT-ST that has me scratching my head. I seem to remember a thread where someone had a picture of the new AT-ST and it was a little larger than the IA one, but not by much. What could be in that expansion that makes it worth 2.5x more than the IA walker?

My ultimate question at this point is, is the Legion core set a loss leader for FFG? Probably not, but I find it interesting to consider.

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@thestag

Regarding the pricing disparity and Legion's Core as a loss leader, it could also useful to consider just how armies are built, which I am not in the know on, and if someone is, please enlighten me.

Maybe making the AT-ST really high like that has to do with trying to guide a meta away from spamming AT-ST's by making the grunts more attractive to purchase with that lower sticker cost, which might lead to you buying more of those over time which can lead to actually spending more money in terms of pure dollars on numerous "cheap" packs instead of those scary $50+ boxes.

It's like buying a new car; the dealership will try and get you into something ridiculous like a 7+ year financing deal to keep the monthly payments as low and attractive as possible, because you'll spend more money that way with the interest than you would if you saved up the money, at least in part, ahead of time and were able to get it paid off on a shorter schedule.  A lower interest line of credit from a bank would actually be a better option still, because it's an open loan, not a prescribed payment plan.

We could theorize on this all day of course, but until I see how the game is actually played out in terms of list building restrictions, it's hard to say exactly what the  business model is here, specifically.

All I know is that power creep in a game like Legion will render your purchases inert, which of course can affect IA in the Skirmish format, but at least you still have campaign play to fall back on in terms of finding a home for your old underpowered units.

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Yeah, that's pretty weird regarding the AT-ST.

 

A couple theories:

-The Core IA set comes with an AT-ST already.  If the extra cost 50 bucks, you may as well spend the extra money for a new core instead.

 

- There is no reason to buy multiple copies of the Weiss expansion, as you could never have more than two AT-ST units out at a time.   The only exception is if you're buying units for multiple lists that will be used simultaneously, but that's a bit of a long shot.  Meanwhile, I expect that Legion will feature some lists with multiple walkers.  At 50 bucks a pop, that builds up fast, but could still be tempting for some players.

 

- Perhaps given that other Ally/Villain packs tended to be about ten bucks, they figured the Weiss one shouldn't be too significantly more expensive.  Plus, maybe they even expected for Weiss/AT-ST to not overperform to the point that it would be worth picking it up at such a high price. 

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16 minutes ago, subtrendy2 said:

Yeah, that's pretty weird regarding the AT-ST.

 

A couple theories:

-The Core IA set comes with an AT-ST already.  If the extra cost 50 bucks, you may as well spend the extra money for a new core instead.

 

- There is no reason to buy multiple copies of the Weiss expansion, as you could never have more than two AT-ST units out at a time.   The only exception is if you're buying units for multiple lists that will be used simultaneously, but that's a bit of a long shot.  Meanwhile, I expect that Legion will feature some lists with multiple walkers.  At 50 bucks a pop, that builds up fast, but could still be tempting for some players.

 

- Perhaps given that other Ally/Villain packs tended to be about ten bucks, they figured the Weiss one shouldn't be too significantly more expensive.  Plus, maybe they even expected for Weiss/AT-ST to not overperform to the point that it would be worth picking it up at such a high price. 

If my old 40k days are anything to go by, fielding multiple walkers would be an expensive mistake. Vehicles in 40k tended to attract a lot of gunfire and didn't tend to last very long. Plus vehicles couldn't hold objectives etc. They look awesome and you want them to do well but in reality, troop squads are a better investment. I expect Legion to be the same. Walkers in IA can be a pain but generally avoidable so there is no need to have many.

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10 minutes ago, Gallanteer said:

If my old 40k days are anything to go by, fielding multiple walkers would be an expensive mistake. Vehicles in 40k tended to attract a lot of gunfire and didn't tend to last very long. Plus vehicles couldn't hold objectives etc. They look awesome and you want them to do well but in reality, troop squads are a better investment. I expect Legion to be the same. Walkers in IA can be a pain but generally avoidable so there is no need to have many.

Yeah, I don't expect them to be common, but I'm sure there will be come players who want them as sort of a novelty list.

 

Or, maybe this is the complete opposite and FFG don't think they'll sell multiple copies, but do expect many players will pick up at least one for the novelty of it, thus the $50 price tag.

Edited by subtrendy2

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You already have an AT-ST and Weiss’ cards in the core set. The price point had to be low enough to convince a lot of players to purchase a second figure, a skirmish mission and three agenda cards.

With Legion you are getting your first AT-ST. Might also be part of the difference in prices of core sets.

I had also assumed the Legion AT-ST and Speeder would be more like models than a game pieces. Perhaps even requiring third party (a different hird party) design and manufacture.

 

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As has been stated, the price point is to compete directly with Games Workshop 40k price point.  Their new starter sets also retail for $89.99.  It's definitely an uphill battle to take on GW.  I just hope that IA doesn't become a casualty in a saturated market of FFG's own making.

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2 hours ago, buckero0 said:

There may be some "must have" cards in the expansion per FFGs normal  method of selling you things you may not normally buy multiples of

This is confirmed.

Also, you get 3 red attack dice in core set...Vader uses 6...need to buy extra dice right off the starting line to "roll the bones"

 

Retail is all about perspective lol :/

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On 1/6/2018 at 8:17 AM, urloony said:

As has been stated, the price point is to compete directly with Games Workshop 40k price point.  Their new starter sets also retail for $89.99.  It's definitely an uphill battle to take on GW.  I just hope that IA doesn't become a casualty in a saturated market of FFG's own making.

If you actually want the rulebook, then the GW starter set is $160!

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14 hours ago, Nihm said:

This is confirmed.

Also, you get 3 red attack dice in core set...Vader uses 6...need to buy extra dice right off the starting line to "roll the bones"

 

Retail is all about perspective lol :/

It wouldn't surprise me if the upgrade is also relevant for Rebel forces as well, thus making the need to purchase the expansion even more of a punch to the gut...

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On 12/29/2017 at 4:01 PM, thestag said:

1) Is FFG undercutting itself in order to create interest in Legion over IA?

I don't think they are doing it specifically to attack IA but to make people more likely to make the initial purchase.  With IA $99 is everything it takes to run the campaign, and most figure expansions are $10-15.

Legion is just enough to get you to start building an army in a game with no campaign.  That is a much harder sell.  By lowering the price point for the initial jump, people are more likely to buy in (which leads to them buying expansions).

There is a term that I think applies, it's called a "Loss Leader".  Basically they sell it for less and take the hit in the short term for long term gain.  Another example would be videogame consoles.  When you buy a switch, ps4, or xbone the company does not really make money on them (I've heard that is some cases they actually lose money for each console sold).  However, they make so much from game sales (they get a cut of every game that comes out for the system) that it more than makes up for it.

Edited by Cade Bulkin

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On 12/30/2017 at 1:41 PM, Click5 said:

I actually think Legion’s success is a bit of a long shot.  

 

FFG is taking a bit of a gamble going with 3x6 heavy terrain board and true line of sight. This is going to be a huge barrier to the board game/Star Wars fan crew that FFG usually caters to.  And as far the beer and pretzels wargamers.... they are so firmly entrenched in 40k, supplanting that history is nearly impossible. If you look at any other successful war gamer right now, they all exist in little niche areas around 40k

I agree. I live in my country's biggest gaming area and I don't see it surviving. Most places have very little gaming space for it, nonetheless any that would likely be free. It will be a hobby game people play at home and would require some hardcore gamers willing to put in the money while trying to maintain their other game. 

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On 1/6/2018 at 9:17 AM, urloony said:

As has been stated, the price point is to compete directly with Games Workshop 40k price point.  Their new starter sets also retail for $89.99.  It's definitely an uphill battle to take on GW.  I just hope that IA doesn't become a casualty in a saturated market of FFG's own making.

X-Wing outsold 40k this year. If anyone ought to try it, why not FFG? $90 is not bad, I think Warhammer is up to $150 for the core starter set now. 

Am I the only one on this forum who played WEG Star Wars minis? It came out just two years after 40k was released and both were on the market until 1998 when WEG's parent company (a non-gaming company) declared bankruptcy and liquidated the whole party. Competition from 40k did not stop people from wanting to play big Star Wars battles. It was designed for armies of "between 6 and 60" models, which seems about what Legion will be, and is a ton less than you need for 40k now.

Edit: My mistake, the RPG came out when W40k did, with minis soon after, but the wargame was a couple years in W40k's existence.

Edited by TauntaunScout

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On January 8, 2018 at 2:00 PM, FSD said:

It wouldn't surprise me if the upgrade is also relevant for Rebel forces as well, thus making the need to purchase the expansion even more of a punch to the gut...

This is the fundamental concern that I had for Runewars as well, in terms of how they'd compete with GW's comparable games.

In the GW sphere, beyond a core rulebook and gaming materials, you're buying the army book for your army, which contains all the data you need to field it, then you go out and buy the necessary model kits to build your force.

You're not missing a critical upgrade and then going on to buy something from another faction just to run it.

I look at Legion the same way I look at X-Wing that way, in that you can't really collect it in a "faction-locked" bubble, and will need to dabble in product outside your chosen faction.

In IA at least all of this is in service of also servicing a robust campaign game, so I feel it's justified there, and it's only really a problem if you're 100% a skirmish player, but then that's the decision you're making when you choose to opt-in to the game in the first place.  At least now with the app, you have the option to enjoy a solitaire campaign experience with your "superfluous" models and gaming materials that previously were of no value to you.

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GW has gone through many phases of it's games. There have been times when you couldn't collect Warhammer et al in a "faction locked bubble" either. Didn't hurt them much. That was back in the early days when they were growing  their fastest. 

I think the release of new Star Wars movies is going to keep interest alive in a variety of Star Wars games. 

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On 1/8/2018 at 3:05 PM, Cade Bulkin said:

There is a term that I think applies, it's called a "Loss Leader".  Basically they sell it for less and take the hit in the short term for long term gain.  Another example would be videogame consoles.  When you buy a switch, ps4, or xbone the company does not really make money on them (I've heard that is some cases they actually lose money for each console sold).  However, they make so much from game sales (they get a cut of every game that comes out for the system) that it more than makes up for it.

You’re correct about how loss leaders work and the Legion starter likely is one, but game consoles don’t work that way exactly; granted it’s been 10 years since I took Cost Management Systems but I’m pretty sure they don’t qualify as loss leaders.  They take a loss a first, but there are a lot of one time costs associated with the production.  So the first and maybe even second production runs sell at a loss, but eventually the consoles make profit so they aren’t reliant on the game sales.  It’s a common misconception. 

A better example of a loss leader might be movie tickets.  Theaters lose money on tickets and make up for it in consessions, which is why they charge $14 for a drink and popcorn.

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Dollar values are just about right for people who are 50-50 on the game, or even 60-40 (against). 

Mechanics look good, and sample gameplay that I have seen make it look quite nice. I am concerned about a 2 horse race.

Once the META is sorted, it's hard to play rock-paper-scissors with a BigAssRock vs BabyScissors.

Aside from some very few standouts, open combat of Imps vs Rebs is difficult to imagine. Even in Ep6 (Return of the Jedi), it was Ewoks (and they'd been planning it for a while by the looks), supported by a few rebs vs Imperials.

I'd like to be more enthused about it, but I am in the 'Full of doubt' category.

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