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Embir82

I left Runewars Miniatures Game and how did it happen - some thoughts

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Hi.

Sadly yesterday I had to sell my collection of Runewars Miniatures Game.
Don't get me wrong it is a good game, and if I would be rich or had a lot of spare money or room in my living place I would definetly collect this still. Unfortunately real life get in the way so I had to made a choice.
Started to play this game about year and half ago after my two friends convinced me to start collecting this game. The selling point was the fact that Runewars was using hidden orders mechanics (known from X-Wing), yet whole game was placed in a fantasy world which we prefer to Star Wars fluff.
Unfortunately game never took off as I hoped so. What were the reasons?
First off, not a lot of players here in Poland. In comparison to X-Wing this game got a really small player base, especially here in my country, there are no leagues, no weekly store tournaments, there are no regionals.
Secondly, slow start - we had to wait a long time for new expansions and armies - I got patience because I like to "dive in" to given system but my friends lost interest and stopped talking or playing this game.
Thirdly, costs. Base game costed a lot, so much in fact that we had to agree with one of my friends to buy two Core Sets and thus cut our expenses in half. Also, my two friends were discouraged by the fact that this game used X-Wing marketing startegy by requiring to physically having upgrade cards. Also miniatures were really expensive, at least initially.  It didn't look good in comparison to X-Wing where you could buy, for about half the price of Runewars miniature box, one ship which will make about third part of your list. In Runewars buying expensive unit covers maybe fifth or sixth part of your list.
Fourthly, there were some design choices that made this game just worse than X-Wing from strictly mechanical point of view. First of standard game takes a lot of space - it requires two mats of standard size, and official mats from FFG are costly. Secondly whole game is a lot more fiddly than X-Wing and takes a lot more time to play. Especially irritating is a requirement to removing casualties and "puzzle" like trays - it is real chore that unfortunately adds up on fiddly aspect.
This game is just not easy to set up nor "compact" enough in comparison to X-Wing.

So, this are the reasons. I wish Runewars' players all the good things. I hope in place where I live grim state of things is just an exception and game will develop further. Maybe one day I will back.

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All your complaints seem to be that the game is new. Were you expecting x-wing levels of players to pick up the game right away? By starting your own comp (just ask your local game store for a space and they'll normally be happy to help) people will see the game getting played and more people will buy in.

The price point is higher than x-wing but it is much cheaper than a certain other army-size fantasy battle game. This game isn't meant to be an x-wing equivalent, its a rank and file army size game. Splitting core sets is exactly what you are meant to do if you only want to play 1 army, makes the buy in fairly cheap. You don't need to buy official FFG mats to play. Just define a play area and set up.

How have you been playing a year and a half? The game was released in April, and has only been out 9 months. 4 factions in 9 months with expansions available for 3 of them is pretty good.

2 hours ago, Embir82 said:

Also, my two friends were discouraged by the fact that this game used X-Wing marketing startegy by requiring to physically having upgrade cards.

You already said that there weren't any competitions so why did you "require" the upgrade cards. Just print out the ones you don't have for casual play?

Edited by Qark
spelling

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54 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

First off, not a lot of players here in Poland. In comparison to X-Wing this game got a really small player base, especially here in my country, there are no leagues, no weekly store tournaments, there are no regionals.
Secondly, slow start - we had to wait a long time for new expansions and armies - I got patience because I like to "dive in" to given system but my friends lost interest and stopped talking or playing this game.
Thirdly, costs. Base game costed a lot, so much in fact that we had to agree with one of my friends to buy two Core Sets and thus cut our expenses in half. Also, my two friends were discouraged by the fact that this game used X-Wing marketing startegy by requiring to physically having upgrade cards. Also miniatures were really expensive, at least initially.  It didn't look good in comparison to X-Wing where you could buy, for about half the price of Runewars miniature box, one ship which will make about third part of your list. In Runewars buying expensive unit covers maybe fifth or sixth part of your list.
Fourthly, there were some design choices that made this game just worse than X-Wing from strictly mechanical point of view. First of standard game takes a lot of space - it requires two mats of standard size, and official mats from FFG are costly. Secondly whole game is a lot more fiddly than X-Wing and takes a lot more time to play. Especially irritating is a requirement to removing casualties and "puzzle" like trays - it is real chore that unfortunately adds up on fiddly aspect.
This game is just not easy to set up nor "compact" enough in comparison to X-Wing.

I'm sorry to hear it when players leave the game. In terms of your points: 

1. Lack of players is the hardest part of new games, and contemporary game companies place a ton of immaterial labor on players to grow communities. I completely understand this frustration. 

2. The slow release schedule is something that annoys me as well. FFG should have had Daqan and Waiqar complete at release, with Latari and Uthuk out completely by the end of 2017. That is the only way to give the game a fair shake. If RW does fail (and I think that talk is premature), then FFG will definitely shoulder the blame for slow releases and lack of promotion. There is still time for this to change though. 

3. I'd disagree about costs. You can make a competitive RW army for $150 or less quite easily. As a long-time X-Wing player, $150 doesn't get you much if you want to actually have a viable list. Moreover, the competitive X-Wing meta means that entire factions go through stretches where they are near unplayable. RW is far cheaper. 

4. Another preference issue. X-Wing is small...but...games are also often two ships against two ships. Not only is that dull looking, but lacks the tactical depth that controlling 4-8 units does in a larger play area with less forgiving maneuvering. I think you have to compare RW to games like 40k/AoS; in these comparisons, the 2-D terrain, far less models, and smaller table size means RW is actually compact for a tabletop army-style game.

Anyway--I hope RW changes your mind in the future, but voicing concerns is definitely understandable! 

 

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Yes, this game is comparable to Warhammer Fantasy Battles and a viable army's a heck of a lot cheaper than what you'd spend for WFB, trust me (had 6000 points each of High Elves, Empire, Orcs/Goblins, Dwarves and Skaven...). Just have to give it time.

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It's a bit of a slow burn at the moment (not really though, it's still less than a year in), but I'm certain after legion releases we'll get a flurry of announcements for the long awaited Latari and uthuk units. As well as new unit announcements for all factions as early as second quarter. This game is in infant stage still. I think at this time with armada we were still waiting for wave 2. 

I'd say it's a bit early for more doomsaying. Sorry your leaving, I'll stay in for the long haul.

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And if I remember correctly, @Embir82, you were hesitant to jump in anyway since you had invested so heavily in BattleLore, right? Since you have that game to fall back on within the same theme, I can see why it wouldn't make sense for you to break your back trying to build the community if people just didn't seem interested.

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As for the low player count in Poland: I've already contacted some lpcal game stores in Warsaw and i know that tournament kist will show up in 2018. This is the point where we start to mobilise community also we are planning Warsaw Runewars League. Im pretty sure tht with enought motivation things will start going here eventually. 

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also Runewars marketing is not like the x wing one. X-wing is already famous from shios that you buy just to have one specific card up to the point that you must buy ships from other factions just to have necesery upgrades. Not like that in runewars. so far i can have every card that i need buying just the models from my own faction. 

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On 12/29/2017 at 8:55 PM, coldsteel said:

Yes, this game is comparable to Warhammer Fantasy Battles and a viable army's a heck of a lot cheaper than what you'd spend for WFB, trust me (had 6000 points each of High Elves, Empire, Orcs/Goblins, Dwarves and Skaven...). Just have to give it time.

I don't think you can compare this game to WFB just yet.  RuneWars doesn't have the variety WFB has, at least not yet, to cater to different player types.  I have a friend(table top miniature enthusiast) that is intrigued by RuneWars, but he's not sold on any faction that RuneWars has to offer currently.  Its not a faction power argument more than it is a faction theme issue. 

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Only thing I can say about Runewars is that I was really surprised to see the entire line be 50% off on sales at several major locations online with less than a year under its belt and at Christmas no less with ample of everything in stock.  That pretty much never happens with miniature games, especially FFG games like X-Wing and Armada.  **** getting any kind of sale on anything X-Wing or Armada is rare in general. 

This does not bold well for Runewars because the online market stocks are often an overflow of brick and mortar shops, which have shown that in today's gaming market, being as hot as it is right now, it makes no sense to have a highly expanded game on the shelf, rather than many "one box" games (generally board games).   Brick and Morter shops just don't have store capacity to hold large lines of mini games.   I would predict that right now, Runewars is not doing particularly great at least not to expectations, but like many mentioned here already, miniature games take a long time to kick-off, it will be another year before we really know the status and health of Runewars.

I have been quite disappointed with Runewars, not as a game, but as a product in general.  The enthusiasm for the game has died to almost nothing in my area and it was never that big to begin with, the slow releases have really killed potential interest and the game still lacks any real spark thematically something I had hoped they would have addressed by now.  I'm really rooting for it, but I can understand the hesitation of anyone getting into the game now.  It's still very much a incomplete miniatures game and there is a lot of question as to whether or not it will survive its adolescents long enough and the community can maintain interest long enough for the game to get the 6 to 8 completed factions it needs to stand as a proper game.  

I think from a business stand point the mistake they have made is that releasing one faction at a time means that interest will fade unless they continue to maintain and develop for existing factions.  For example I play Waiqar, so when they do Elves or Demon releases,  I don't care, it means ZERO to me.  My interest is my faction, so they need to continue to develop it and each release they make means I get 1 more type of unit than the other factions and when they don't release anything for me for a long time... I lose interest in collecting.  

Its kind of a catch 22 that they have created for themselves and its going to be hard to dig themselves out of.  Heres hoping for the best!

 

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Only thing I can say about Runewars is that I was really surprised to see the entire line be 50% off on sales at several major locations online with less than a year under its belt and at Christmas no less with ample of everything in stock.  That pretty much never happens with miniature games, especially FFG games like X-Wing and Armada.  **** getting any kind of sale on anything X-Wing or Armada is rare in general. 

This does not bold well for Runewars because the online market stocks are often an overflow of brick and mortar shops, which have shown that in today's gaming market, being as hot as it is right now, it makes no sense to have a highly expanded game on the shelf, rather than many "one box" games (generally board games).   Brick and Morter shops just don't have store capacity to hold large lines of mini games.   I would predict that right now, Runewars is not doing particularly great at least not to expectations, but like many mentioned here already, miniature games take a long time to kick-off, it will be another year before we really know the status and health of Runewars.

I have been quite disappointed with Runewars, not as a game, but as a product in general.  The enthusiasm for the game has died to almost nothing in my area and it was never that big to begin with, the slow releases have really killed potential interest and the game still lacks any real spark thematically something I had hoped they would have addressed by now.  I'm really rooting for it, but I can understand the hesitation of anyone getting into the game now.  It's still very much a incomplete miniatures game and there is a lot of question as to whether or not it will survive its adolescents long enough and the community can maintain interest long enough for the game to get the 6 to 8 completed factions it needs to stand as a proper game.  

I think from a business stand point the mistake they have made is that releasing one faction at a time means that interest will fade unless they continue to maintain and develop for existing factions.  For example I play Waiqar, so when they do Elves or Demon releases,  I don't care, it means ZERO to me.  My interest is my faction, so they need to continue to develop it and each release they make means I get 1 more type of unit than the other factions and when they don't release anything for me for a long time... I lose interest in collecting.  

Its kind of a catch 22 that they have created for themselves and its going to be hard to dig themselves out of.  Heres hoping for the best!

 

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5 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

I think from a business stand point the mistake they have made is that releasing one faction at a time means that interest will fade unless they continue to maintain and develop for existing factions.  For example I play Waiqar, so when they do Elves or Demon releases,  I don't care, it means ZERO to me.  My interest is my faction, so they need to continue to develop it and each release they make means I get 1 more type of unit than the other factions and when they don't release anything for me for a long time... I lose interest in collecting.

This is especially important considering how they adjusted the card distribution to facilitate buying in-faction only. If they didn't do that, you might still have some interest in some of the newer sets (though the financial burden would be prohibitive to many). I absolutely agree that they needed to hit the floor with all four factions. If they could have found the storage space to wait until all four factions were out, and then put out 4 new boxes (1 for each faction) at every other release), I think it would have been better off for keeping interest in the game. At the very least, people who said they were waiting for demons and elves would have actually bought them instead of getting bored of the wait and leaving while everyone else played with humans and skeletons.

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12 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

This is especially important considering how they adjusted the card distribution to facilitate buying in-faction only. If they didn't do that, you might still have some interest in some of the newer sets (though the financial burden would be prohibitive to many). I absolutely agree that they needed to hit the floor with all four factions. If they could have found the storage space to wait until all four factions were out, and then put out 4 new boxes (1 for each faction) at every other release), I think it would have been better off for keeping interest in the game. At the very least, people who said they were waiting for demons and elves would have actually bought them instead of getting bored of the wait and leaving while everyone else played with humans and skeletons.

There is also this "feeling" of being on the outs with the game.  I know that in my gaming circle several people were planning to get Demons and Elves, but while they waited (holding out for their faction), we played... and we played and we played.  They waited..and as they waited their interest faded and ultimately they ended up skipping it all together.  Now that the new stuff is out, we have no one in our circles who cares... so the game kind of died out for the people who never actually had an opportunity to get involved and now for the people who haven't got anything new for their existing faction in a while as well.   It kind of killed in from both ends.

Edited by BigKahuna

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6 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Only thing I can say about Runewars is that I was really surprised to see the entire line be 50% off on sales at several major locations online with less than a year under its belt and at Christmas no less with ample of everything in stock.  That pretty much never happens with miniature games, especially FFG games like X-Wing and Armada.  **** getting any kind of sale on anything X-Wing or Armada is rare in general.

In all fairness though, it's because X-Wing is Star Wars. There's no need to put it on sale, because no matter what you charge for it, the fanboys will buy it by the bucketload. You could literally slap a Rebel logo and a £500 price tag on a pile of manure, and someone will buy two of them- one for use and one to be BNIB. This was one of infuriating reasons why Wizkids killed off D&D Attack Wing: why bother marketing a game when you can just recolour a superhero Heroclix and watch it sell out?

RW doesn't have a large or established fanbase, so it can't really get away with that. Sales are a very good way of encouraging new people to try out a game they'd otherwise hesitate on due to price.

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13 hours ago, Urvogel said:

In all fairness though, it's because X-Wing is Star Wars. There's no need to put it on sale, because no matter what you charge for it, the fanboys will buy it by the bucketload. You could literally slap a Rebel logo and a £500 price tag on a pile of manure, and someone will buy two of them- one for use and one to be BNIB. This was one of infuriating reasons why Wizkids killed off D&D Attack Wing: why bother marketing a game when you can just recolour a superhero Heroclix and watch it sell out?

RW doesn't have a large or established fanbase, so it can't really get away with that. Sales are a very good way of encouraging new people to try out a game they'd otherwise hesitate on due to price.

I don't doubt the popularity of Star Wars as a franchise, but gamers are a very critical bunch, the success of Star Wars based games like X-Wing and Armada might start out through franchise loyalty but there is no way the games would have survived as long as they have and remained as popular if they weren't fantastic games.   I mean consider that D&D is also an immensely popular franchise with a huge built in audience yet they couldn't sell attack wing... why?  Because while it shared many similarities with X-Wing it had a ton of flaws conceptually, thematically and mechanically.  Just swapping Dragons for Tie-Fighters was insufficient to make it worthy of a D&D franchise label, players in that fan base are just as critical of their games as the Star Wars franchise fans.  

I do think one key issue for Runewars is that in order for it to actually be successful long term, it has to be attractive to assemble & paint hobby veterans.  This is an absolute must for a miniature game that is not pre-painted.  I think this is the one flaw of FFG's plan with Runewars and the reason its struggling.  While the miniature are nice enough, the lack of customization and diversity in the product line as well as an extremely thin thematic presence has effectively labeled Runewars a miniature game for "newbies" which may seem like a great sales pitch for it but the problem is that no such audience actually exists in the market.  There isn't some untapped revenue out there categorized as "introductory players", looking to get into the hobby.  Its a market dominated by veterans, nothing else exists. 

Runewars needs to be made attractive to veterans and that requires several key things in order for it to happen.

1.  It needs to be more diverse.  More factions, more specialized units for factions, more ways to customize units and a greater focus on army building rather than just army collecting.

2. More customization of miniatures.

3.  Waaaaaaaaay more theme.  If there is one thing that keeps veterans from playing the game its that there isn't an 800 page hardbound book focused on fleshing out the game world and its themes.  They not only need to match Gamesworkshop, they need to stomp them.  Runewars must have a massive tomb that experianced players can hand to their friends and say "hey, here is the awsome thing your about to get into".  Something to draw people in.

I can understand Runewars didn't fly out of the gates with everything, miniature games take time to develop, I mean its not like Warhammer Fantasy was released with 30 armies on day one.  But it is competing against already established games that have all of this in place, so FFG needs to seriously invest in Runewars and make it a more robust game.  Right now as released, it still has that image of being a game for newbies and that's very unattractive to veterans who are their primary recruiters and the key to controlling market share.  If you can sell the vets your game will succeed, if you can't, it won't.

Edited by BigKahuna

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For what it's worth, I've been eyeing various miniatures games for 7 or 8 years, hoping to find one with a setting I could really get ino; a setting I would be excited to own and paint a full army for. Many games had interesting armies, but no game had my army the way Runewars does. Does that counter your comment about their not being an untapped market of new miniatures players? No, because I'm just one person and can't be considered a "market." I suppose I bought into this game like a Star Wars fanboy because I was already predisposed to love the setting.

Though I do think this game suffers feeling repetitive for the same reason Legion does. That is, Terrinoth fans already got BattleLore, which may have scratched their itch for a Terrinoth game with figures in much the same way Star Wars fans feel some redundancy over Legion when comparing it to Imperial Assault. Fans of a setting don't usually care so much what genre of game it is as it represents their beloved IP, so while each IP's games have fundamental mechanical differences, the thematic gamer sees the same thing being sold as new.

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I always held off on entering miniatures war gaming as it was daunting and expensive to even begin.  I'd say I was a part of a an untapped market.  That market may be small, but so be it.  I now have a miniatures game I can champion and have fun in.  There are a lot less rules here, which is also great.  Having to purchase every flipping book for your faction to get all the miniscule rules was daunting and off putting.  There are so many obscure little rules in WH games that as a newbie, I just didn't even want to begin to deal with.

RW may not be targeted at the hardcore wargamer at the onset, but it certainly has a target.

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Agree with some of the above sentiment, the rpg style tomes of GW titles are huge non starters, they do nothing for me except eat space. As are 50-100$ models, despite them being much higher quality.  A plethora of factions more often gives the illusion of choice, rather than much difference at all, and finally a smaller ruleset and greater focus on actual engaging gameplay is important.  

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11 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

I don't doubt the popularity of Star Wars as a franchise, but gamers are a very critical bunch, the success of Star Wars based games like X-Wing and Armada might start out through franchise loyalty but there is no way the games would have survived as long as they have and remained as popular if they weren't fantastic games.   I mean consider that D&D is also an immensely popular franchise with a huge built in audience yet they couldn't sell attack wing... why?  Because while it shared many similarities with X-Wing it had a ton of flaws conceptually, thematically and mechanically.  Just swapping Dragons for Tie-Fighters was insufficient to make it worthy of a D&D franchise label, players in that fan base are just as critical of their games as the Star Wars franchise fans. 

I have to disagree with your there; the DDAW fanbase all readily agree it was a great game, and mechanically it was lot better than X-Wing/Armada. Some of its biggest praise was that the units were well balanced, and unlike the other games there were no broken builds or instant win combos. It genuinely was a great game. Unfortunately, it's also readily agreed it died because Wizkids utterly mishandled it. Zero communication with customers and stores, to the point it was a regular occurrence for the monthly kits to not show up. They didn't even give us the courtesy of announcing the game was cancelled, just changed the dates on the upcoming releases and never spoke of them again. Which now makes me very worried whenever a game like RW gets delays or goes quiet on their new releases...

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On 02/01/2018 at 1:22 PM, BigKahuna said:

There is also this "feeling" of being on the outs with the game.  I know that in my gaming circle several people were planning to get Demons and Elves, but while they waited (holding out for their faction), we played... and we played and we played.  They waited..and as they waited their interest faded and ultimately they ended up skipping it all together.  Now that the new stuff is out, we have no one in our circles who cares...

Exactly what happened in my area, My set is sitting half painted with zero opponents to paly against. Zero. The release schedule has been a real problem for the game, and I fear it may have done seroius damage to its prospects. Shame because the mechanics are outstanding. Hope I'm wrong.

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12 hours ago, Urvogel said:

I have to disagree with your there; the DDAW fanbase all readily agree it was a great game, and mechanically it was lot better than X-Wing/Armada. Some of its biggest praise was that the units were well balanced, and unlike the other games there were no broken builds or instant win combos. It genuinely was a great game. Unfortunately, it's also readily agreed it died because Wizkids utterly mishandled it. Zero communication with customers and stores, to the point it was a regular occurrence for the monthly kits to not show up. They didn't even give us the courtesy of announcing the game was cancelled, just changed the dates on the upcoming releases and never spoke of them again. Which now makes me very worried whenever a game like RW gets delays or goes quiet on their new releases...

Yeah but you have to understand the difference between perception and reality.  In business you react to results, not opinions of the public.  People may have praised it, but they weren't buying it, that's why they gave it less support, delayed releases and ultimately canceled.  It wasn't mishandled, it lost support because it was not selling, its that simple.  To the community it appears differently because when a game loses support everyone blames the company for the game not selling well, but the "not selling" part happened long before.  If the game sold well, it would not have been mishandled.  Companies very rarely "mishandle" games, that's just a perception communities have when their favorite game dies out.  The reality is that it was already dying out and the "mishandling" is just the company cutting their loses.

Opinions are not sales.  People can praise it all they like, but when a game sells more it means more people like it.  X-Wing remains the highest selling miniature game on the market today (years after its release).  DDAW was not a better game.

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10 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Yeah but you have to understand the difference between perception and reality.  In business you react to results, not opinions of the public.  People may have praised it, but they weren't buying it, that's why they gave it less support, delayed releases and ultimately canceled.  It wasn't mishandled, it lost support because it was not selling, its that simple.  To the community it appears differently because when a game loses support everyone blames the company for the game not selling well, but the "not selling" part happened long before.  If the game sold well, it would not have been mishandled.  Companies very rarely "mishandle" games, that's just a perception communities have when their favorite game dies out.  The reality is that it was already dying out and the "mishandling" is just the company cutting their loses.

Opinions are not sales.  People can praise it all they like, but when a game sells more it means more people like it.  X-Wing remains the highest selling miniature game on the market today (years after its release).  DDAW was not a better game.

You're totally getting your wires crossed there. It didn't sell well BECAUSE Wizkids mishandled it. And it's not just my 'perception' as you call it, but the consensus of the community. No advertising or promotion, overpriced expansions, zero communication with players, lack of support for stores, and non-US markets being an afterthought.  If people were aware the game existed, they then had to contend with high entry prices and the random lottery to see if your store would ever get the monthly kit. Plus I'm not saying that X-Wing is a bad game, I'm saying it's only a best seller because it has a Star Wars name slapped on it. Would it be as big as it is if it was an original property? Take a look at other sci-fi spaceship games and get back to me on that.

But to stop arguing about Wizkids not being able to organise a piss-up in a brewery and get back to the original topic of hand: niche games such as RW, which don't have a multi-million franchise to tag themselves onto, need work and investment of the parent company to earn attention and keep attention. Although there's a gap in the market for larger scale wargames, FFG still needs to work on building the fanbase, expanding the franchise and keeping players. Games like this are no overnight successes. Early days will always have rocky starts, but I'll always have the fear of the higher ups going "Well, it's not an instant bestseller, let's stop promoting it. Oh, less people are buying now? Drop it completely."

I've only dabbled in FFG games in the past, I'm sure others will be able to tell if FFG have been like that in the past, or if they handle their properties differently. From what I've seen on here so far, there's still hope, so that's always a good thing. I think this year will probably be make or break for RW though; if FFG handle it well it could explode in popularity. Otherwise, we could be in for difficulties.

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