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Shosur0

Cards that extend characters longevity and attachments.

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I was wondering how is people doing or whats your thoughts @ the increased longevity of characters with the new cards.

Ive been playing games (I normally play Crane) vs my friend who plays Crab and the survavility of his characters is over the top.

Between reprieve, iron mine, rebuild and vanguard Ive had characters last 5-6 rounds (like the full game). That wouldnt be that bad if it didn't extend the lifespan of awesome attachments like Spyglass, Talisman of the Sun, Watch Commander.

To be honest I had a last game in which a Kaiu Suichi had these 3 plus Favoured Mount and other less important attachments (fantana) and it was impossible to get rid of him. At a certain point I had a few noble sacrifies but he had reprieve and iron mines in a province. So that was a bad plan: sacrificing 2 of my chars for nothing and leaving me exposed to Way of the Crab.

It was pretty much a nightmare as this beast would (every turn) draw cards, draw fate, send my attacks to pilgrimage or defend the wall. Im not sure attachments cost are balanced around the attachments lasting the whole game. Like a 0 cost Katana that will normally grant you +4-6 military on average will give you up to +12 military in conflicts along the game. Thats a big improvement in efficiency. And its even worse with more powerful effects.

It wasnt that bad before Iron Mines + Rebuild combo. Not much you can do atm vs Iron Mines. And rebuild. They are basically free counters to your assassination, noble sacrifice, i can swim... And cant be countered themselves.

So Im wondering what do you ppl think. I think we need some earthquake event: remove holdign from the game (so it cant be rebuilded) or some other tech vs holdings.

 

Edited by Shosur0

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The cards that extend the permanence of chars in game are really very strong, using in a char cost 4-5 is the same as gaining that value in fate for the next turn, and added with the attachments it becomes even more critical.
Particularly I do not think reprieve by itself is so problematic cause it costs a fate and a card, which gives an advantage to the opponent win the conflicts.
Iron Mine already seems to be much more for being 0 cost and not taking up space in the conflict deck, even more on a deck that has many expensive chars. 
It's the kind of situation in the game where the opponent can do little about it, like when Lion uses charge / ujiaki and then FGG, or dragon hits niten master and the 1 cost shugenja 3/3 on the flop and buys fury / ancestral daisho, or the combos of honoring and unbowing kaede. They are situations that if you don't have the card to answer in time, a counter, let go, cloud the mind... the game fades and it is almost impossible not to lose.

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1 hour ago, Shosur0 said:

I was wondering how is people doing or whats your thoughts @ the increased longevity of characters with the new cards.

Ive been playing games (I normally play Crane) vs my friend who plays Crab and the survavility of his characters is over the top.

Between reprieve, iron mine, rebuild and vanguard Ive had characters last 5-6 rounds (like the full game). That wouldnt be that bad if it didn't extend the lifespan of awesome attachments like Spyglass, Talisman of the Sun, Watch Commander.

To be honest I had a last game in which a Kaiu Suichi had these 3 plus Favoured Mount and other less important attachments (fantana) and it was impossible to get rid of him. At a certain point I had a few noble sacrifies but he had reprieve and iron mines in a province. So that was a bad plan: sacrificing 2 of my chars for nothing and leaving me exposed to Way of the Crab.

It was pretty much a nightmare as this beast would (every turn) draw cards, draw fate, send my attacks to pilgrimage or defend the wall. Im not sure attachments cost are balanced around the attachments lasting the whole game. Like a 0 cost Katana that will normally grant you +4-6 military on average will give you up to +12 military in conflicts along the game. Thats a big improvement in efficiency. And its even worse with more powerful effects.

It wasnt that bad before Iron Mines + Rebuild combo. Not much you can do atm vs Iron Mines. And rebuild. They are basically free counters to your assassination, noble sacrifice, i can swim... And cant be countered themselves.

So Im wondering what do you ppl think. I think we need some earthquake event: remove holdign from the game (so it cant be rebuilded) or some other tech vs holdings.

 

I usually just try and break the province with Iron Mine.

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19 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

I usually just try and break the province with Iron Mine.

Thats an unfortunate secondary advantage of this holding. You have to go and break it. Perhaps its on province you really dont want to attack (Shameful). And its not like Crab is bad at defending.

A holding that gives reprieve to any of your characters seems too good to me. Here, have Kisada for free one more turn (thats a 5 fate swing per use of it). When you chain them and with rebuild its been pretty absurd to me. But Im willing/wanting to read other people's point of view.

Edited by Shosur0

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Well the good news is that if Crab is running Talisman of the Sun, they likely have little to no attachment control, so sticking them with with Pacifism or some other effect to keep them out of a lot of conflicts could allow you to overwhelm them quickly.

As the card pool gets deeper, each clan should end up with strong strategies that balance one another out. A deck that is trying to set up one big guy is vulnerable to effects that can lock that one guy down or swarm that players quickly with lots of units.

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Longevity has the weakness of hostile attachments, dishonor, and removal.

I run Crane-scorp at the moment, which struggles with running big characters as it lacks an easy way to re-ready, so it has a lot of weak characters that can struggle to win the most important fight of the turn vs a big fattie like Little Bear and who will get creamed if you can re-ready once or twice a turn. However to counter this I can just use way of the scorpion as well as negative attachments like poisons to render the longevity a waste.

You need to tech your deck to beat things that are popular. Right now multi-unbow champions are a huge deal, so being able to not just lock down characters but to make them a non-issue permanently is really important, and most clans can get tools to do this if they can't play multi-unbow champions themselves.

Edited by dezzmont

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12 minutes ago, Waywardpaladin said:

Thing that makes me salty is as a Dragon, I am supposed to invest a lot into a few characters and use them a lot.

 

Yet all these unbow and longevity cards show up in other clans, and the ones we get have very obtuse activation requirements.

You should be allying with the Unicorn or Phoenix to be fair. It is a clear bit of intended synergy, considering their historic alliances ICly. Any clan that wants to play into multi-ready strategies needs to use one of these clans as an ally, just as a matter of practicality.

As the cardpool expands and clans get more and more varied deck themes your probably going to get more options for allies, but out of the gate it looks like each clan only has a smattering of tools for its greater aspects. Crane haven't yet gotten the ability to buy fully into being ninja or duelists for example, Lion can't handle berserkers as a theme yet, and crab witch hunters and kaiu seigemasters aren't in. It will take time, as each clan has quite a few aspects of its identity that are clearly going to be supported but just aren't there yet, so the most obvious aspect of each clan is going to heavily dictate your viable allies.

Edited by dezzmont

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31 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

You should be allying with the Unicorn or Phoenix to be fair. It is a clear bit of intended synergy, considering their historic alliances ICly. Any clan that wants to play into multi-ready strategies needs to use one of these clans as an ally, just as a matter of practicality.

As the cardpool expands and clans get more and more varied deck themes your probably going to get more options for allies, but out of the gate it looks like each clan only has a smattering of tools for its greater aspects. Crane haven't yet gotten the ability to buy fully into being ninja or duelists for example, Lion can't handle berserkers as a theme yet, and crab witch hunters and kaiu seigemasters aren't in. It will take time, as each clan has quite a few aspects of its identity that are clearly going to be supported but just aren't there yet, so the most obvious aspect of each clan is going to heavily dictate your viable allies.

I had been running Crane. Duelist training and Way of the Dragon let my Voltron bow two enemies. Raitsugu could remove two Fate and bow two targets. Voice of Honor let me cancel events that were going to devastate my single character. Curry Favor was going to let me defend if I second conflicted first, or ready my Stone of Sorrow holder. If second conflicting last, I could ready someone to add glory to get the Imp Favor to keep Sumiko going and deny it to my enemy.

 

Crab though, now that I have Censure, gives me Reprieve which might be worth 5 fate or give me more time to draw into something else to keep them around. Pathfinder Blade let's me avoid losing fate, getting Dishonored, or against Crane having all my attachments stolen. The Mountain does not Fall let's you hit three conflicts, but since I am Seeker and not Keeper I am not using it ATM.

 

How do you think Phoenix would help? They can ready Togashi, but that is about it right? I know Unicorn can help with card draw with Spyglass but haven't seen much else that I would want.

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Phoenix can use Seeker of Knowledge, Against the waves (though in Dragon you don't have as many good targets to ready compared to Crane, who I am much more familiar with), and Display of Power to allow you to re-ready more often than you technically should. Kaito Kosori is also a good character for if you can't easily commit to a lot of conflicts with lots of characters. It is not as good as Unicorn at letting a big guy run a turn, and the lack of spyglass makes the reward lesser, but they are still an option if you see something else you like in them, like Display of Power.

The power of Spyglass can't be understated, especially as Dragon can dodge the primary downside of I Am Ready rather easily. Conflict cards are the primary vehicle through which you win the game, the more you can gather, the more you can commit to a fight, and the more cards you can tax your opponent. Spyglass dramatically increases the rate you draw cards while also assisting in political conflicts, which is why it sort of makes the unicorn a "default" splash because its such an insane value engine if you plan to re-ready the character even once, forget about how dragon can with purely native cards re-ready 3 times.

Remember that the core set strongholds really don't have enough influence to support more than maybe 5-6 cards from another faction. Even running 3 Spyglasses and 3 I Am Ready puts you at 9 influence. Breakthrough is exceptionally strong if there is a clear combination of rings that would probably sweep the rest of the turn if you could obtain them.

Edited by dezzmont

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1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

Phoenix can use Seeker of Knowledge, Against the waves (though in Dragon you don't have as many good targets to ready compared to Crane, who I am much more familiar with), and Display of Power to allow you to re-ready more often than you technically should. Kaito Kosori is also a good character for if you can't easily commit to a lot of conflicts with lots of characters. It is not as good as Unicorn at letting a big guy run a turn, and the lack of spyglass makes the reward lesser, but they are still an option if you see something else you like in them, like Display of Power.

The power of Spyglass can't be understated, especially as Dragon can dodge the primary downside of I Am Ready rather easily. Conflict cards are the primary vehicle through which you win the game, the more you can gather, the more you can commit to a fight, and the more cards you can tax your opponent. Spyglass dramatically increases the rate you draw cards while also assisting in political conflicts, which is why it sort of makes the unicorn a "default" splash because its such an insane value engine if you plan to re-ready the character even once, forget about how dragon can with purely native cards re-ready 3 times.

Remember that the core set strongholds really don't have enough influence to support more than maybe 5-6 cards from another faction. Even running 3 Spyglasses and 3 I Am Ready puts you at 9 influence. Breakthrough is exceptionally strong if there is a clear combination of rings that would probably sweep the rest of the turn if you could obtain them.

I am Ready only readies Unicorn characters, making it a very poor splash card.

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7 hours ago, Waywardpaladin said:

Thing that makes me salty is as a Dragon, I am supposed to invest a lot into a few characters and use them a lot.

 

Yet all these unbow and longevity cards show up in other clans, and the ones we get have very obtuse activation requirements.

On the flip side, Crab is supposed to be the clan that wins on defense, but we didn't get anything nearly as defensively good as Mirumoto's Fury.

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Im just concerned. The game was pretty well balanced in core (except poor unicorn). Now we got stuff like Haughty Magistrate and Iron Mine (I would add some other stuff like Kachiko but I guess you can play "around" those) and Im feeling the power creep is real and it came really soon.

 

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12 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Oh! Herf! I know there was a unicorn re-ready card usable on anything I was teching about with, but now I think it may be dynasty. Christmas has me a bit scatter brained at the moment!

You're probably thinking of Gaijin Customs - ready a non-unicorn character as long as you control a unicorn attachment (like spyglass and talisman).

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3 hours ago, AradonTemplar said:

You're probably thinking of Gaijin Customs - ready a non-unicorn character as long as you control a unicorn attachment (like spyglass and talisman).

Thank you! It was driving me crazy because I KNOW I was experimenting with a Crane deck that used some Unicorn Shenanigans to repeatedly ready Doji Hotaru in an attempt to run the game via taking 3 rings a turn off political conflicts alone, but for some reason remembered Gaijin Customs as only working with Unicorn Characters.

But yes, Unicorn can both refresh your conflict cards (again, the primary way you win the game) while also letting a big scary character multi-fight, which ends up being insane enough to be worth aggressively mulliganing for spyglass.

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While I do think that "life prolonging" cards are really strong and the combination of undercosted attachments and those cards generate an obsene amount of value, I don't think that it is a design problem yet. Every clan has tools to generate a lot of value. The only value card that I consider straight up broken atm is Feast or Famine.

With the 6 cost phoenix character revealed and the powerlevel of provinces I believe that we will get a card that can cancel triggered abilities. It wouldn't surprise me, if we will see something like Treachery from the AGoT LCG. This would also weaken cards like Reprieve and the Iron Mines.

Edited by Ignithas

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On 12/24/2017 at 8:10 AM, Shosur0 said:

Im just concerned. The game was pretty well balanced in core (except poor unicorn). Now we got stuff like Haughty Magistrate and Iron Mine (I would add some other stuff like Kachiko but I guess you can play "around" those) and Im feeling the power creep is real and it came really soon.

Rather than power creep, I think of this game as sort of like rocket tag. Every clan has at least a few extremely strong cards, and there are a ton of powerful neutrals as well. The base level of what constitutes a "good card" in the core set was already a really high bar (see Lion's Pride Brawler, for example). I also get the impression the Imperial Cycle was mostly designed alongside the core set, and it's just arbitrary luck as to which strong cards ended up in the core versus in the first expansion cycle.

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I think the biggest obstacle to balance right now is the fact that removal is very specific and limited (Which is good) but because its so conditional the limited array of removals makes certain strategies dominant. There just flat our aren't good ways to remove big characters swiftly in most faction combos that don't also open up personal weaknesses.

Once more factions have more options for removal that all work in specific situations but as a collective work in more situations, big characters who stick around forever will still be useful but won't be such a devastating instant win condition, because it will be harder for such a strategy to be too dominant.

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I think that it makes things like the Unicorn champ and fallen in battle more important when there's so much tec to keep characters in play, it's just that they're so hard to use

 

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On 12/24/2017 at 10:30 AM, AradonTemplar said:

You're probably thinking of Gaijin Customs - ready a non-unicorn character as long as you control a unicorn attachment (like spyglass and talisman).

As long as you control a unicorn card, so it will work with conflict characters too, which makes the uni splash all the more appealing. Iuchi Wayfinder is probably the second biggest reason I splash uni in a lot of my decks.

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