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Celestial Lizards

Why do people hate TLJ? (Spoilers)

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6 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

How many times do they say the word "Sith" in the original trilogy? So I guess Palpatine isn't a Sith Lord? 

How many times do they say the word "Ewok" in Episode VI? I guess those things on Endor still don't have a name? 

Do they ever say "Rodian" or "Ithorian" in a movie? 

There's some things that you have to go outside of just the movies to find if you really care about them. That's why there's an entire canonical universe that Kennedy and Disney carefully control. 

Movies are supposed to be self contained, if you need other media you've failed at story telling.

You don't need to know ewoks are called ewoks to get their the native life form fighting the empire because they think creepio is a god, you do need to show the protagonist can fly before you have her navigate the insides of a star destroyer.

doesnt need to be a big scene but you do need to establish it or you get Mary sue accusations.

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Nobody ever showed us that Luke could fly anything more than a speeder in ANH - they only told us. Then we saw Luke doing it. 

 

If you restrict yourself to pre-Special Edition, all you have for Luke, is him piloting a speeder followed by Ben saying "I understand you're quite a good pilot yourself".

Edited by Ironlord

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14 minutes ago, Ironlord said:

Nobody ever showed us that Luke could fly anything more than a speeder in ANH - they only told us. Then we saw Luke doing it. 

 

If you restrict yourself to pre-Special Edition, all you have for Luke, is him piloting a speeder followed by Ben saying "I understand you're quite a good pilot yourself".

Yeah the t-16 was just decorative...

But you know what at least there was exposition that's way more than rey got, its well accepted she's a sue arguing it at this point is silly.

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"Accepted" by what part of the fandom though? And different fans have different definitions as to what constitutes a "Sue" or a "Stu" and what doesn't.

 

The term is used too loosely to be especially "accepted" or "agreed on" in most cases:

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

 

the t-16 was just decorative...

In the context of the movie alone, it was. Only in tie-in media - the novelization - did it become a plot point. Using the "only the movie counts" rule on ANH the same way as on TFA, renders it irrelevant.

Edited by Ironlord

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A bigger question is do we even care that Rey is really good at stuff? That's literally the biggest part of her character. Love it or hate it, Destiny was a huge part of TFA's release, and they call her a "Force prodigy".

swd02_rey.png

That's the point. She's meant to be really good at stuff. Snoke and Luke kind of explained it in the movie - the Dark Side and Light Side aren't owned by people, they're just there. Whenever one person becomes very powerful in one side, their equal has to rise up in the other. So Rey's powers are due to the fact that Luke closed himself off from the Force, there's no other Jedi, and Kylo, Snoke, and the Knights of Ren are all super strong in the Dark Side. This creates an imbalance, and it was just random chance that some random teenager from the middle of nowhere got that power. I'm not a huge fan of Star Wars superheroes, but if there's going to be one, I'd rather it be Rey because she's a pretty cool character. And that's also a part of why I liked Episode VIII - they actually did explain where Rey's power came from, if you paid attention to it. 

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24 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Yeah the t-16 was just decorative...

But you know what at least there was exposition that's way more than rey got, its well accepted she's a sue arguing it at this point is silly.

There is exactly one line in ANH "justifying" it. His speeder has similar controls. Just like if I put the steering wheel of my Honda civic into a NASCAR, I'd be one of the greats.

Makes sense.

But because they didn't throw exactly one line of incredibly thin justification, then Rey is a Mary Sue. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Sekac said:

There is exactly one line in ANH "justifying" it. His speeder has similar controls.

 

Wasn't that line only in the ANH novel anyway? 

 

'There's not much difference control-wise between an X-wing T-65,' Blue Leader went on, 'and a skyhopper.' His smile turned ferocious. 'Except the payload's of a somewhat different nature.'

 

The movie only gives us "I used to bullseye womprats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two metres" - as an explanation for Luke's shooting skills. Piloting skills, are mostly left to the novel, and the Special Edition, to emphasise.

Edited by Ironlord

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Are we seriously going on about how Rey was an alleged Marry Sue in TFA?
Her "Marry Sue" actions were:
Beating up some thugs while carrying a staff the size of herself.
Crashing the Millennium Falcon into the sands of Jakku, while getting hit the whole time from TIEs until she lines up ONE shot for Finn.
Knowing what modifications her boss did to a ship.
Putting a scratch on a guy who wasn't trying to kill her, and was also mentally unstable, and also shot by one of the most powerful sidearms we've seen in the movie.
 

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Doesn't Luke have a rifle when he's going to scout out the raiders? Don't we see him shooting in the Death Star? Doesn't Luke seem to only be ok during the pre-trench run in the finale?

Luke always seemed to be just so-so where Rey seems to excel at everything. Struggling is a key trait Luke has and Rey doesn't seem to really struggle compared to others.

If I also remember, wasn't quite a bit cut from 4? We can see bits and pieces but I don't recall ever seeing all the footage. The whole thing with Biggs is something I'd point to.

Edited by Kubernes

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Just now, Kubernes said:

Doesn't Luke have a rifle when he's going to scout out the raiders? Don't we see him shooting in the Death Star? Doesn't Luke seem to only be ok during the pre-trench run in the finale?

Luke always seemed to be just so-so where Rey seems to excel at everything. Struggling is a key trait Luke has.

If I also remember, wasn't quite a bit cut from 4? We can see bits and pieces but I don't recall ever seeing all the footage. The whole thing with Biggs is something I'd point to.

No? Luke is show using perfect accuracy to kill some dudes and shoot a door closed. He also Shoots wildly at the outside of the deathstar and still manages to do damage to the people inside. He then also manages to land TWO torpedoes into the exhaust port.

However! None of it mattered because the Deathstar was an INSIDE job!


(I can't find the original one that isn't playing at super speed :( )

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2 hours ago, Sekac said:

There is exactly one line in ANH "justifying" it. His speeder has similar controls. Just like if I put the steering wheel of my Honda civic into a NASCAR, I'd be one of the greats.

Makes sense.

But because they didn't throw exactly one line of incredibly thin justification, then Rey is a Mary Sue. 

 

Do you think pilots just pick up formation flying? Are snipers able to not touch a gun for a decade then go and hit a bullseye at 400 yards first time?

She flew an unfamiliar ship through a star destroyer one with an offset cockpit at that, someone who's only had ywing simulator practice should not be able to do that.

I've logged hundreds of hours in an apache ah-64D simulator would you just hand over a supercobra and expect me to fly through new York?

Untrained force powers are not the equivalent of a download in the matrix, there's suspending disbelief then there's flushing it down the toilet.

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Stop being disshonest in your arguments

The empire did send out tie fighters too defend the death star, but they didn't consider the rebels as a threat so the didn't sen 100 fighters.

Captain phasma and boba are both pretty pointless, BUT one is a side character that show's up halfway into the trilogy. The other is EVERYWHERE in the marketing and show's up in the first 15 min of this trilogy. Sure she didn't ruin star wars, but she is a waste of a talented actress and underused after being marketed as this cool new character.

The thing with this movie is that it's the second part in this trilogy, but it doesn't connect with awakens. Characters are jokes like Finn, chewie and hux. Plot points in awakens are discarded without resolution. The established rules are broken(a new hope had no rules too break since they didn't have 6+ movies of established Canon like this One)

Lastly the tone is completly off. We have cut-in jokes taken straight from Marvel movies. Compare the asteroid chase scene in empire vs the chase in this One. Empire is fast and exciting with great music, I don't have time to adk: why didn't the empire send 50 tid fighters after the Falcon? Because I'm invested in the adventure.

In tlj se have a 2 hour slog with capital ships. Then we have time too figure out plot holes like No fighters. 

I watch star wars for space adventure and galactica for hopeless chasing of bickering disorganised humans. This movie is a mix of both that is quite jarring too alot of fans.

I don't hate the movie but 2 hours of the movie felt like a slap in the face and a complete tone, story and vision change from tfa so it was hard for me to stay interested when either Kylo or Rey weren't on screen.

 

Stop using dishonest arguments like I hate this movie cause of phasma, she is just a symptom of a larger problem, not unlike jar jar. Yes People may not like a movie that you love. DEAL WITH IT!

 

May the force be with you

Edited by jocke01

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41 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Do you think pilots just pick up formation flying? Are snipers able to not touch a gun for a decade then go and hit a bullseye at 400 yards first time?

She flew an unfamiliar ship through a star destroyer one with an offset cockpit at that, someone who's only had ywing simulator practice should not be able to do that.

I've logged hundreds of hours in an apache ah-64D simulator would you just hand over a supercobra and expect me to fly through new York?

Untrained force powers are not the equivalent of a download in the matrix, there's suspending disbelief then there's flushing it down the toilet.

Which is what both ANH and TFA require. Luke destroying the death star in his very first space flight is at least as unbelievable as Rey competently flying the falcon in TFA. 

The justification for Luke flying well was that the same company makes both ships, so the controls are similar. So yes, in your helicopter example (using ANH logic), I would expect you to fly through New York, in a blizzard, and shoot the star off the Christmas tree in time square. 

But, then again, I don't know much about helicopters. Do the Apache ah-64D and supercobra have similar controls? If so, yes. According to a New Hope, you should be able to do that. 

Luke being good makes no sense, but we don't care because it's Star Wars. Rey being good doesn't get a pass because.....uhh.....

...ummm.....

...just because. 

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5 hours ago, Sekac said:

You're right, Wedge should've been pissed when Luke swooped in and became the best ever. That movie sucks. 

Lol.

Onceagain, I think you misunderstood.

I don't hate the movies because of it. I just don't like the Force.

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There are way too many shaggy dogs. Look it up on tvtropes, but basically it means anticlimactic moments that render earlier things in the movie (and franchise) meaningless. It works well in a comedy but doesn't work in a Star Wars movie.

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36 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Tvboy? Tvtropes? Checks out.

I connected those dots but decided not to post about it. Glad somebody did.

Coincidence? I THINK NOT!!!

Edited by Sekac

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1 hour ago, Warlon said:

Lol.

Onceagain, I think you misunderstood.

I don't hate the movies because of it. I just don't like the Force.

I've got depressing news then. I don't know any of the writers, but I'm reasonably sure the force is going to continue to exist in star wars movies.

Jokes aside, I get what you're saying. It can undermine the suspense if there's a magical bail out anytime things get bad. That said, I enjoyed it because it really stuck it to the preview speculators. I hate revealing previews. I reeeaally hate it when people parse through them frame by frame and draw conclusions.

I looove it when movies pull a bait and switch with the previews and the tasty salt is the best part.

Edited by Sekac

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For me it's not actually hate as much as a strong 'MEH' feeling. It's the first Star Wars movie I actually don't look forward to ever watching again, for a multitude of reasons:

 

-So much stuff that doesn't make sense: dropping bombs in space (and they fall 'down', capital ships with conveniently unshielded key components (the dreadnought's turrets, the rebel flagship's bridge), the whole tracking through hyperspace thing (how Rose realizes they're doing it out of thin air, only doing it from one ship because screw redundancy etc.), if jumping a ship through the enemy fleet does that kind of damage, why were rebels struggling with the 2 Deathstars again, and why didn't they do this with the first ship running out of fuel?, Finn's speeder guns melt, but his exposed face is fine

 

- First Order is still ****** (not the tiniest glimpse of smart thinking or strategy)

 

- Pretty much all the TFA story hooks torn to shreds: Who are Rey's parent's? Nobody; Who's Snoke? Doesn't matter, he's dead anyway; Why did Luke leave a puzzle to solve in order to find him? Who cares; Phasma? Again never mind, she's sad too.

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5 hours ago, LordBlades said:

For me it's not actually hate as much as a strong 'MEH' feeling. It's the first Star Wars movie I actually don't look forward to ever watching again, for a multitude of reasons:

 

-So much stuff that doesn't make sense: dropping bombs in space (and they fall 'down', capital ships with conveniently unshielded key components (the dreadnought's turrets, the rebel flagship's bridge), the whole tracking through hyperspace thing (how Rose realizes they're doing it out of thin air, only doing it from one ship because screw redundancy etc.), if jumping a ship through the enemy fleet does that kind of damage, why were rebels struggling with the 2 Deathstars again, and why didn't they do this with the first ship running out of fuel?, Finn's speeder guns melt, but his exposed face is fine

 

- First Order is still ****** (not the tiniest glimpse of smart thinking or strategy)

 

- Pretty much all the TFA story hooks torn to shreds: Who are Rey's parent's? Nobody; Who's Snoke? Doesn't matter, he's dead anyway; Why did Luke leave a puzzle to solve in order to find him? Who cares; Phasma? Again never mind, she's sad too.

Dude. Dropping bombs in space is literally as easy a magnetic rails. Also the "Unshielded stuff" wasn't. But Fighters can fly under the shields, probably the film's single most subtle but clever detail.

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1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Dude. Dropping bombs in space is literally as easy a magnetic rails. Also the "Unshielded stuff" wasn't. But Fighters can fly under the shields, probably the film's single most subtle but clever detail.

Fair point on the magnetic rails, although the bombs looked a lot more like dropping in free-fall than being pushed along a rail.

 

Fighters flying under shields however, if that's a thing, then the whole idea of having an exposed command bridge (pretty much every capital ship in the setting) is pretty stupid. It also kinda contradicts the scene in ROJ, where it's heavily implied the A-wing destroyed the bridge of the Executor due to the shield generator being taken out seconds before.

Edited by LordBlades

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