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Celestial Lizards

Why do people hate TLJ? (Spoilers)

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Ok, I just read about a petition to remove TLJ from canon. How ridiculous is that? But it made me think: "why do people hate this movie so much?" 

Some things I get: Canto Bight and the Leia scene.

But how can you dislike Holdo ramming the Supremacy (there's a theory that she didnt actually ram it, but Luke's saber splitting apart tore up the ships)? That was visually impressive and just a great scene!

This video sort explained it: 

 


Please tell me, because I honestly want to know: why do so many people hate such an amazing movie? 

Edited by Celestial Lizards

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It has flaws. The pacing isn't quite right, there are some logical errors here and there, some characters aren't used right. Sometimes, dumb stuff happen, and the humour can be forced or obnoxious at times.

I, for one, love this movie, way more than R1 or TFA.

I think the main thing that makes people despise this movie, is that it doesn't meet their expectations. It was hyped as the second coming of Jesus before anyone ever saw it. People pretty much demanded to see Luke throwing ATATs into black holes, Snoke's life story told from day 1 to day slice, Ray being related to everyone important ever in the franchise, you get what I say.

And when people got something different for a change, they flipped out. Characters behave radically different than their counterparts from 30 years ago, and apparently that was shocking for many. Seeing new Force abilities was shocking for many. Seeing all their favourite fan theories thrown out the window (where they belong) was shocking for many.

This movie isn't perfect by far, but saying TLJ destroyed Star Wars is rather dumb, considering that the franchise survived abominations like Attack of the Clones.

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Leia's space scene was the only bit I disliked. Everything else was pretty good. Some bits, I'd have done differently, or could have been handled better such as Hando could have explained her plan when she could see that her officers didn't believe in her leadership.

However, I liked it. :)

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I like this movie alot.  I when the characters are speaking to each other, often times they are also speaking to the audience.  I think this film is so deep that it'll be one of those movie you buy on Blu Ray and watch a ton of times, constantly finding new things over the new few years.  And I think it's poetic and artistic - emotional and profound. 

 

  But they killed Luke Skywalker in a scene that almost seemed like they didn't have to.  I think as we learn more about WHY that needed to happen, the audience will grow to accept it... but for now people are NOT happy with the way Luke was handled - and rather than just complain about that, they are nitpicking every detail in an effort to tear the movie apart.  Forgetting the fact that all star wars films have just as many nitpicking plotholes and contrivances.  I honestly had one guy telling me that the movie was crap because Poe's booster didn't apply enough G-Force to Poe.... and he actually had a specific amount of G's that it was supposed to pull.  

 

No movie is going to be 100% realistic and believeable, especially when you've got space wizards and laser swords.   You've got to look past those details and just enjoy the film. 

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Some of the problems with the movie for me:

"Yo momma"-insolent joke by poe. (Srsly? Yo momma jokes in Star wars?)

Forced jokes in almost every scene, and I mean stuff like "bb8 cant maneuver under a box" (but is fine at the controls of an AT-ST), Finn keeps tripping and stuff like that

Adding "Poor Oliver Twist Force Kids" and cute Animals into a lot of shots (thanks, Disney :-( )

A super boring chase scene between capitals.

 - Srsly, why didn't the rebels spread out? The capital ship can be chased, all the while the others run off in a perpendicular angle. Is that too difficult as a strategy?

 - Why didn't some star destroyers perform a micro-jump into THE STRAIGHT DIRECTION of the flagship?

Kylo-Rey romance (blargh!)

Leia Space Walk

The rebel comanders all not looking the part (nothing agains women as military leaders, don't get me wrong, but why does an admiral have to look like an opera singer with purple hair and her right hand so cowardish all the time?) 

Hux is just... a Hitler parody by now?

Luke even considering striking down kylo in his sleep is totally out of character to me.

The rey mirror scene with the odd voiceover.

Yoda... playing wise nut dumbledore for harry ... i mean luke.

Phasma was a letdown again. She should easily best finn and a mechanic by herself. She is discribed as a ferocious fighter...

Rose was too much of a whiny do-goodie to me.

The rebels being saved by sparklefoxies.

The nun thingies on the island... setup for cheap "oops I let it fall" jokes

Finn who knows  where the comm unit is because he cleaned there (what kind of a lame running gag is that?)

Finn walking around in a leaking bacta suit and nobody giving a ****, just for the lols.

Maz taking a phone call in the middle of a fire fight which is casually dismissed as a "union dispute".

Poe can get away with anything (wasting fleet, mutiny etc).

... I could go on.

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Okay, so we have a few options.

"Read them, have you? Page turners they were not."

The movie is very much like other previous movies in the universe, in terms of its internal logic and consistency. Meaning not very good.

  • Some people scrutinize this move way harder than the other SW movies. If you think that not sending out fighters to attack the resistance ships is stupider than not having fighters to defend the Death Star, you are being intellectually dishonest.
  • People forget that the other movies have EU/Legends material supporting them. We didn't know jack **** of the Emperor in 5-6, we don't know less about Snoke. They are kinda the same. You can't hate on the one, without also hating on the other.
  • People find issues about everything, no matter if it is a standard trope of the universe.

 

"Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to."

We are not kids anymore. We won't ever see any movie in the way we've seen our first Star Wars movies.

  • Then there are people who do not understand the message of the film, and feel betrayed by the subverted tropes, because they think SW is quite the opposite of this. Eventually, these people will grow up and realize what's going on in the movie. 
  • Then there are people who still live in their childhood, and expect every movie to provide the same feeling that they had when they first seen the OT.

 

And finally:

Hype and Theories were running rampant for this movie, moreso than before. How many YT channels are there JUST to discuss ALL possibilities and outcomes... We got something new. People need some time to realize that their precious theories didn't work out.

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32 minutes ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

It has flaws. The pacing isn't quite right, there are some logical errors here and there, some characters aren't used right. Sometimes, dumb stuff happen, and the humour can be forced or obnoxious at times.

I, for one, love this movie, way more than R1 or TFA.

I think the main thing that makes people despise this movie, is that it doesn't meet their expectations. It was hyped as the second coming of Jesus before anyone ever saw it. People pretty much demanded to see Luke throwing ATATs into black holes, Snoke's life story told from day 1 to day slice, Ray being related to everyone important ever in the franchise, you get what I say.

And when people got something different for a change, they flipped out. Characters behave radically different than their counterparts from 30 years ago, and apparently that was shocking for many. Seeing new Force abilities was shocking for many. Seeing all their favourite fan theories thrown out the window (where they belong) was shocking for many.

This movie isn't perfect by far, but saying TLJ destroyed Star Wars is rather dumb, considering that the franchise survived abominations like Attack of the Clones.

Absolutely agree.  

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13 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Kylo-Rey romance (blargh!)

 

Didn't see it at all.

14 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

but is fine at the controls of an AT-ST

All BB8 is doing is tapping wires together.

14 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Poe can get away with anything (wasting fleet, mutiny etc)

Regardless of what he did, the Resistance is tiny and he's an amazing pilot. The Resistance is very informal and on the verge of defeat. 

16 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Luke even considering striking down kylo in his sleep is totally out of character to me.

Not to me. Luke knew how strong the Dark Side is. Was there any alternative? How else could Kylo be stopped? Maybe taking him to a psychologist...

17 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Yoda... playing wise nut dumbledore for harry ... i mean luke.

But that's what he was in the OT, remember?

18 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Rose was too much of a whiny do-goodie to me.

Jeez, you really have a heart of stone, don't you?

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25 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

 - Srsly, why didn't the rebels spread out? The capital ship can be chased, all the while the others run off in a perpendicular angle. Is that too difficult as a strategy?

Srsly, why didn't Imperials send more TIEs to defend the Death Star? Or anything ever?
 

28 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

The rebel comanders all not looking the part (nothing agains women as military leaders, don't get me wrong, but why does an admiral have to look like an opera singer with purple hair and her right hand so cowardish all the time?) 

Yeah, who would wear an evening dress for battle stuff... Aside from Leia? That's outrageous.

29 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Yoda... playing wise nut dumbledore for harry ... i mean luke.

Right on! It totally ruined the serious character established in Empire.

29 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

Phasma was a letdown again. She should easily best finn and a mechanic by herself. She is discribed as a ferocious fighter...

Remember Boba Fett?  a character that does nothing, has 5 lines, and dies like a punk. But this movie ruined Star Wars.

31 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

... I could go on.

So could I.

 

 

(Some of) Your problems are valid. And they are all kind of representative of Star Wars. Since Day 1. These are not even prequel flaws.

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1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

Gold Squadron brought this up, why didn’t they just sacrifice one of their ships to blow up the Death Star? Death Star II? Droid Control Ship? Starkiller Base? Just Hyperspace through that sucker.

Watch the sequence again. What if the force of splitting open Luke's saber destroyed the ships? 

And for those people who say to ram ships at lightspeed, keep in mind that the Raddus was extremely heavily armed, probably with a very good hyperdrive, and really expensive to make. 

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8 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Gold Squadron brought this up, why didn’t they just sacrifice one of their ships to blow up the Death Star? Death Star II? Droid Control Ship? Starkiller Base? Just Hyperspace through that sucker.

This is like asking, why did the japanese begin Kamikaze attacks in late '44, why not do it from the start? If all 400 planes attacking Pearl Harbour would've all use their ammo then slam into something valuable, they could've caused so much more damage, right?

Circumstances are different, equipment available is different, times are different.

Edited by Captain Pellaeon

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1 hour ago, MaxPower said:

Some of the problems with the movie for me:

...

Luke even considering striking down kylo in his sleep is totally out of character to me.

...

Edited out the other ones - because this is the only one I actually agree with (sort of). 

 

I think this is the crux of people's complaints.  I think this one scene is going to warrant a ton of exposition in books and future canon.  If people can believe that Luke is fallible - and had a moments of darkness / weakness... then perhaps they will come to terms with this and then the rest of Luke's actions will make more sense.  

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3 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

I think this is the crux of people's complaints.  I think this one scene is going to warrant a ton of exposition in books and future canon.  If people can believe that Luke is fallible - and had a moments of darkness / weakness... then perhaps they will come to terms with this and then the rest of Luke's actions will make more sense.  

Luke wasn't infallible before. Right at the beginning of RotJ, he's Force choking two Gamorrean guards, then aboard DS2, he only defeated Vader because he used his anger. I can absolutely accept that when he is described seeing Ben's future, in which he commits all sorts of evil deeds, he became terrified, was momentarily touched by the Dark Side himself, which led to him consider preventing Ben having that future...

It all lasted for a brief moment, but it was enough for Ben to do what he did.

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