Jump to content
Seastan

Topmost Chamber

Recommended Posts

There is a ruling about being able to put progress on stage 1B of The Thing in the Depths on the same turn you clear the helm.

http://hallofbeorn.com/LotR/Details/Take-the-Ship-TTiTD

This means that when progress is placed, it is first placed on the active location, then that location is moved out of play and the passive text activates before the remainder of the progress is placed on the quest card.

Would this ruling also mean that when clearing the Topmost Chamber in Cirith Ungol, you would instantly advance to stage 3 and place the remaining progress onto that stage?

http://hallofbeorn.com/LotR/Details/Topmost-Chamber-TMoF

http://hallofbeorn.com/LotR/Details/Fighting-in-the-Tower-TMoF

Edited by Seastan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Thing in the Depths is an exception to the rule.  Normally you place all the progress, then advance the quest, then clear the active location.  I don't believe there is any consistent interpretation of the rules that would allow all quests to function as intended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has there ever been a situation before where progress from questing spilled over onto a new quest card?  I don't recall any, so I'm skeptical that this scenario would break that ground.

I think the problem is just on the Thing in the Depths because the wording would technically preclude progress being placed on the same turn you clear the Helm, and I think they bent the rules to make it function as intended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, sappidus said:

I'm not sure this is relevant—besides revealing cards, the placement of progress via questing is the most confusing set of rules to me—but I'm sure we'll all welcome seeing THIS thread again:

 

In that thread mndela brings up similar point but it there seems to be no conclusive answer: In Cair Andros if you clear the last Battleground during the quest phase while it's active, you could immediately jump to stage 5 and complete the quest with overflow progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, he suggested it but nobody else agreed with it.  I like GrandSpleen's breakdown on the next page.  You place all progress simultaneously on Active location and quest, then advance quest (if able), then explore active (if able).  That's why I think Thing in the Depths has the flawed language since it says you can't place progress on the quest until the active location is explored.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Teamjimby said:

Yeah, he suggested it but nobody else agreed with it.  I like GrandSpleen's breakdown on the next page.  You place all progress simultaneously on Active location and quest, then advance quest (if able), then explore active (if able).  That's why I think Thing in the Depths has the flawed language since it says you can't place progress on the quest until the active location is explored.

Except, if I recall correctly the way the Thing in the Depths ruling was made it seemed like the reasoning was based on how the game works, rather than an exception/errata.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Thing In The Depths ruling opens a can of worms and also the quest is actually more fun without it, so the best resolution would be to simply cancel that ruling, and have the spend an extra turn on Stage 1 of that quest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the link to the Helm of the Stormcaller ruling:

 

Quote

The way the core rules describe placing progress from questing successfully is: “Note that if there is an active location, progress tokens are place don that location until it is explored, and the remainder are then placed on the current quest.” Once Helm of the Stormcaller leaves play, you are no longer prevented from placing the remaining progress on stage 1B

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But that quote is contradictory to other rulings.  It's like they went to a core set ruling for this particular example, ignoring the subsequent FAQ entries that say otherwise (i.e., quest advanced before active location explored).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Teamjimby said:

But that quote is contradictory to other rulings.  It's like they went to a core set ruling for this particular example, ignoring the subsequent FAQ entries that say otherwise (i.e., quest advanced before active location explored).

Technically (IIRC) the more recent ruling doesn't say the quest is advanced before the active location is explored. It says the quest is advanced before you trigger responses to the active location being explored. That's the only way I've been able to keep it straight in my head - by interpreting that the location does leave play immediately, but responses (and forced effects) don't trigger until you finish placing progress.

Which is weird, and potentially confusing to resolve, and it'd be easier if things had been ruled to just work active location first in all cases, but I don't know that it's actually inconsistent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could get on board with that interpretation.  If that's the case, then that would answer the Topmost Chamber situation in the OP (i.e., that you don't place progress on the next stage) since it requires the location to leave play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, so let me see if I have this straight:

  1. Calculate that you have quested successfully.
    1a. Forced, then Responses to questing successfully.
  2. Place progress tokens on the Active Location.
  3. Active Location leaves play, if appropriate.
  4. Place progress tokens on the Quest.
  5. Advance the quest.
    5a. When revealed abilities on the next quest card.
    5b. Flip the next quest card.
    5c. When revealed abilities on the other side of the next quest card.
  6. Forced, then Responses to clearing the Quest.
  7. Forced, then Responses to clearing the Active Location (or it leaving play).

And throughout, Passive abilities are constantly re-checking.

Do I have it right?

(I can't believe how complicated this is).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Seastan said:

So you consider advancing the quest to be a distinct step that happens at a certain time rather than a passive that goes off whenever its conditions are met?

It may well be a passive ability that goes off as soon as its conditions are met. I don't think that generally changes the timing I laid out above though, does it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, its relevant to the OP.

Quote
  1. Calculate that you have quested successfully.
    1a. Forced, then Responses to questing successfully.
  2. Place progress tokens on the Active Location.
  3. Active Location (Topmost Chamber) leaves play, if appropriate.
    Passive: Advance the quest to stage 3 because all conditions are met
  4. Place progress tokens on the Quest. (which is now Stage 3)
  5. Advance the quest.
    5a. When revealed abilities on the next quest card.
    5b. Flip the next quest card.
    5c. When revealed abilities on the other side of the next quest card.
  6. Forced, then Responses to clearing the Quest.
  7. Forced, then Responses to clearing the Active Location (or it leaving play).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mmm .. for me, placing progress should be like this ..

 

  1. Calculate that you have quested successfully.
    1a. Forced, then Responses to questing successfully.
  2. Place progress tokens on the Active Location and the current Quest (should be placed at once, not token per token)
  3. Active Location leaves play, if appropriate.
  4. Advance the quest if fullfilled.
  5. 5a. When revealed abilities on the next quest card.
    5b. Flip the next quest card.
    5c. When revealed abilities on the other side of the next quest card.
  6. Passive effect of the  Active Location (if exploring happens).
  7. Forced for clearing the Quest and/or the Active Location (if exploring happens). 
  8. Responses to clearing the Quest and/or the Active Location (if exploring happens).

I think advancing a quest stage is the most weightend effect, then everything happens in Order of passive -> forced -> response

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi. Core Rules page 22 says "Additional progress tokens earned against the quest do not carry over to the next stage." So if you advance quest, you can't carry over progress already accumulated.

To me, the distinction is for Thing in the Depths, you are still on the same quest stage - you haven't advanced. When you clear the Helm, you are still on stage 1b. So the ruling doesn't break basic "quest advancement".

(Although exploring a location and responding to that are still potentially spilt across the quest stage divide, as per rulings on responses such as on Legolas or Blade of Gondolin).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seastan means that if you already have enough progress on the quest to advance, but haven't cleared the Topmost Chamber; once enough progress is placed on the Chamber, you advance (because you have the requisite progress and have explore the chamber); you continue placing progress from questing successfully on the next stage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I see the argument. But my point is you are always questing against the current quest. If there's an active location, it's the framework rules which use it as a buffer.  So for Thing in the Depths, you quest against stage 1.B - with Helm of the Stormcaller as the active location. The ruling implies once the location is explored, you can place the remaining progress on the ooriginal target quest.

If the target quest is completed, the core rule about not carrying over progress kicks in - same as for clearing side quests, or any scenario where you would place excess progress on a "standard" quest - you wouldn't carry that over to the next quest stage.

The subtle difference between Thing in the Depths and Tower of Cirith Ungol is that for the latter, you have already added enough progress onto the quest - but you still need to travel to Topmost Chamber, and then need one more turn questing against stage 2.B to clear the active location. Once cleared, the stage moves on, but you lose any "carry over" progress. 

Hope this makes sense!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, so what you're saying is that stage whatever-the-main-quest-is is considered the current quest, and when you advance after exploring the Helm or the Chamber, there is a different main quest (which is not the current quest). Take a look at the pressing needs treachery card from Lost Realm/Angmar Awakened. When it switches the quest card, if you quest successfully, you still make progress on the new quest card. Exploring the Topmost Chamber is like"switching the current quest" to stage 3B.

16 hours ago, Boromore said:

If the target quest is completed, the core rule about not carrying over progress kicks in - same as for clearing side quests, or any scenario where you would place excess progress on a "standard" quest - you wouldn't carry that over to the next quest stage.

In this case, you haven't placed progress on the quest yet, so it wouldn't be spillover progress from the previous stage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair point. But I'd argue that Pressing Need kicks in in the staging process, before questing is resolved. With Top Chamber, you can't put progress on it directly - you try to put progress on the quest stage, which has to be stage 2B. Framework rules buffer your progress against stage 2B onto Topmost Chamber. So I suppose to be more exact, my take would be that when you start quest resolution is when your current quest counts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...