Mountaintop Statuary - Refilling Stronghold Province?

[profparm 172]

Alright, so this is a situation that I hope is wrong, but I just looked in the Rules Reference and I want to confirm:

 

Under Holdings in the RR, the second bullet says, "During the regroup phase, when discarding faceup cards from his or her provinces, a player may choose to discard a face up holding.  When this occurs, the province is refilled, facedown, with the top card of that player's dynasty deck, as normal."

Mountaintop Statuary says, "Reaction: After this holding is turned face up - move it on to your stronghold province."

 

If I discard Mountaintop Statuary from my stronghold province at end of turn, does my stronghold refill with a face down card?

 

I'm pretty sure no, but I'm not seeing why not, unless because of "as normal", which would make the Holding bullet above completely pointless anyway.

[Bayushi Shunsuke 302]

Under final dot point of Provinces:
"...Do not refill a province until it is empty."

Pretty sure it's meant to be "unless it is empty".

Edit: Current wording works, but looks clunky.
"Once a province is empty, refill it" would be clearer.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Bayushi Shunsuke

[Schmoozies 1,374]

40 minutes ago, profparm said:

Alright, so this is a situation that I hope is wrong, but I just looked in the Rules Reference and I want to confirm:

 

Under Holdings in the RR, the second bullet says, "During the regroup phase, when discarding faceup cards from his or her provinces, a player may choose to discard a face up holding.  When this occurs, the province is refilled, facedown, with the top card of that player's dynasty deck, as normal."

Mountaintop Statuary says, "Reaction: After this holding is turned face up - move it on to your stronghold province."

 

If I discard Mountaintop Statuary from my stronghold province at end of turn, does my stronghold refill with a face down card?

 

I'm pretty sure no, but I'm not seeing why not, unless because of "as normal", which would make the Holding bullet above completely pointless anyway.

No because your stronghold is still in play on the province.  You only refill if the province is empty.

[profparm 172]

9 hours ago, Bayushi Shunsuke said:

Under final dot point of Provinces:
"...Do not refill a province until it is empty."

Pretty sure it's meant to be "unless it is empty".

Edit: Current wording works, but looks clunky.
"Once a province is empty, refill it" would be clearer.

I actually think the "do not" wording is better, if, like in most games, "can't" overrides "can" in this game, although strangely that isn't a part of the Jade rule.

 

I don't know why the province rule would take priority over the holding rule otherwise.  If something tells us to do something, and something else tells us not to, both within the same rules reference so with the same amount of legitimacy, does one take priority?  I'm not seeing anything that says one way or another, which would make this case ambiguous as per the rules.

[Waywardpaladin 419]

I do look forward to using it though to Rebuild things like the Imperial Palace on my stronghold province.

[AradonTemplar 343]

37 minutes ago, Waywardpaladin said:

I do look forward to using it though to Rebuild things like the Imperial Palace on my stronghold province.

.... I guess that works? Nice. Too bad there aren't many other great combos available in-faction. Getting something like the Chisei District or Magnificent Lighthouse onto your stronghold would be sweet.

Would love to see multiple holdings stacked up the same way. "Yes, my stronghold is 5+2+9 strength."

Edited December 22, 2017 by AradonTemplar

[GM81 Protocol Droid 142]

Interesting. Theoretically a Dragon splashing Crab can end up with six holdings on their Stronghold Province, three of which were Mountaintop Statuary that were Rebuild targets for three other holdings then managed to cycle back in.  3x Mountaintop Statuary + Miwaku Kabe + Imperial Palace + Secluded Temple + Mountain's Anvil Castle + Entrenched Position or Ancestral Lands is a Province Strength of 16 or 21 versus the appropriate Conflict type. Plus the sacrifice of Mountaintop Sanctuary to send attackers home and the fate pressure that Secluded Temple provides. Honestly I think having two Secluded Temples would be better than a Miwaku Kabe. That 2 points of fate pressure a turn against opponents with more characters is probably better than +2 higher PS.

[Tabris2k 1,106]

 

Mountaintop Statuary does not attach to the stronghold province, rather it gets placed in it, and exists there along with the stronghold itself. Provinces can have multiple cards in them. So you could move 3 copies of Mountaintop Statuary to the stronghold province, and each would provide its +1 strength bonus.

You can discard Mountaintop Statuary from the stronghold province during the Regroup phase, but only empty provinces refill, and the stronghold province is never empty.

 

Developer ruling

[Tabris2k 1,106]

Seeing the “provinces can have multiples cards on them” part... what stops me from playing a Rebuild with one of the cards in Back-alley Hideaway?

[Schmoozies 1,374]

43 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Seeing the “provinces can have multiples cards on them” part... what stops me from playing a Rebuild with one of the cards in Back-alley Hideaway?

The card is not actually in the Province it is attached to the Back Alley Hideaway thus is not a legal target to be discarded as a cost for Rebuild.

[Tabris2k 1,106]

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

The card is not actually in the Province it is attached to the Back Alley Hideaway thus is not a legal target to be discarded as a cost for Rebuild.

Why not?

◊ If a province has more than one card in it, those cards are considered to all be in the same province. Characters can be played and holdings provide their bonuses. Do not refill a province until it is empty. 

The cards are attached to B-AH, but they’re in the province. Like a Fine Katana is attached to a character, but it’s also in the conflict (if that character is in a conflict).

And Rebuild says:

Action: Shuffle a card in one of your unbroken provinces back into your dynasty deck. Choose a holding in your dynasty discard pile – put that holding into play in that province.

The card in B-AH is in one of my unbroken provinces. 

[Schmoozies 1,374]

2 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Why not?

◊ If a province has more than one card in it, those cards are considered to all be in the same province. Characters can be played and holdings provide their bonuses. Do not refill a province until it is empty. 

The cards are attached to B-AH, but they’re in the province. Like a Fine Katana is attached to a character, but it’s also in the conflict (if that character is in a conflict).

And Rebuild says:

Action: Shuffle a card in one of your unbroken provinces back into your dynasty deck. Choose a holding in your dynasty discard pile – put that holding into play in that province.

The card in B-AH is in one of my unbroken provinces. 

Because the card attaches to Back Alley Hideaway not the province.  It can not be played as a card from province outside of the ability for Back Alley Hideaway so you couldn't for example Raise the Alarm to put it into play and it does not flip up like a facedown card does during the start of the Dynasty phase and it can't be discarded at the end of the turn like a normal dynasty card.

Attachments are a specific type of card and have their own set of rules.  Attached and Attachment are not the same thing.  The attachment can not be targeted by a separate card effect unless specified as a valid target.    

[Waywardpaladin 419]

Here I thought I was being clever but it seems already others had thought of the Rebuild interaction. Well, great minds and all that....