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FFG Max Brooke

Week 12 Content Update and Survey

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Greetings L5R Open Beta testers!
 
To start off, the development team would like to thank you for your enthusiasm, energy, and excellent contributions over the course of the Open Beta! We’ve been really impressed by your response and the excellent conversations you’ve fostered.
 
This will be the final content update and survey of the Open Beta. After we receive the information here, we will be stepping back, assessing all of the feedback we have received, and weaving together the final version of the manuscript with all of the changes fully integrated. We have been making positive iterative changes throughout the Open Beta, and much of our time will be spent applying these changes and making sure that they are implemented across the board, with all of their ramifications fully considered. Some parts of the final manuscript might differ quite a bit from the current implementation as we make updates and revisions based on the iterative changes, but the concepts we have settled on with your help over the course of the Open Beta will be preserved.
 
Character Advancement
 
Playtesters have expressed a desire for more freeform character advancement, specifically with regards to the feeling that experience spent outside of curriculum is “wasted.” We do want players to be encouraged to invest in their curriculum, but consistent feedback is that receiving nothing for one’s other investments is frustrating. To address this, we will be making the following changes to character advancement:
 
  • Any purchase outside of your current school rank now contributes half of its experience value to your current school rank.
  • Rings are no longer included in school curriculums.
  • Experience to complete school ranks is going to be increased significantly.
  • Recommended experience rewards will be dropped to one per hour of play, with two per hour and/or discretionary bonuses for milestones offered as an option for GMs.
 
Ninjō/Giri
 
The development team sat down several weeks ago and asked: what do we want Ninjō and Giri to accomplish, and is it doing those things? Here’s what we came up with:
 
  1. Encourage players to think about the character motives fundamental to samurai drama.
  2. Give players a feeling of agency in the resolution of their characters’ inner turmoil.
  3. Give the GM a way to engage the specific samurai drama stories the players want to tell.

 

We feel that objectives 1 and 3 are being met by the current system. However, we agree with player comments that objective 2 is not being satisfied: the current system offers guidance and light mechanical implications of pursuing/ignoring one’s duty or desires, but generally leaves it in the hands of the GM to dangle plot hooks before the players.

As such, the following is our concept for Ninjō and Giri moving forward:
 
“Once per game session, a player may call for a Pivotal Scene involving their character to occur. The player gives a brief overview of a scene they want to roleplay related to their Ninjō, Giri, or the friction between the two. This should be a dynamic moment for the character, in which their faith in Bushidō is tested (usually ninjō) or their reputation is cast into question (usually giri). In their overview, the player should focus on the goals they wish to accomplish and how they relate to their duty or desires, as well as what is standing in the way of them accomplishing those goals. This scene could even occur out of sequence, and may be presented as a flashback (especially if one or more of the characters in question are deceased or otherwise unable to participate).
 
Next, the GM offers comments, suggested revisions, and guidance on situating this scene in the story—as well as the obstacle being described—along with the amount of honor, glory, or both that the player must stake on the outcome of the scene (see Staking Honor, Glory, and Status). If the player wishes to proceed with the scene, they stake the honor or glory and their character must spend one Void point.
 
The scene proceeds as a normal scene, with the GM improvising the action while drawing on previously established facts where possible to help build the scene. If the scene does not involve all of the PCs (or other NPCs who the uninvolved players can temporarily portray), the GM should consider keeping its duration to five minutes or less.
 
At the end of the scene, the player and GM must assess its consequences, as well as whether the character overcame or worked around the obstacles to their goal, or perhaps changed goals altogether. If the character’s faith in Bushidō is upheld, they do not lose any staked honor, and might even receive an honor award of the GM’s determination. If the character’s reputation is undamaged, they do not lose any staked glory, and might even receive a glory award if they did something worthy, at the GM’s determination. It should be very rare for a pivotal scene to occur without some change in a character’s honor, glory, or both—even a seemingly neutral outcome could gnaw at a character’s faith in the code by which they live their life or undermine their efficacy as a samurai in the eyes of others.
 
As with all matters, the GM is the final arbiter over whether the scene is appropriate or not—but the GM should offer an alternative that deals with the same Ninjō or Giri if they truly think a suggestion won’t work as proposed. In the same vein, the GM should not hesitate to ask the player to furnish additional details if they get stuck in framing or resolving the scene, or even turn to the other players table and ask for suggestions.”
 
Now that you’ve read over these options, head over to the survey here and give us your feedback on these ideas, as well as a number of other questions as we wrap up the Open Beta. Feel free to continue sending us your feedback for the next few weeks, and discussing this Beta on the forums.
 
We sincerely appreciate all of the passion you have displayed for Legend of the Five Rings roleplaying, and all the time you have put into testing, analyzing, and commenting on the Open Beta. Your feedback has been very important to the development of the game, and will continue to influence it as we develop the final manuscript!

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In response to Ninjō / Giri and Pivotal Scenes, I have started a thread here to discuss my current feelings on the matter: 

The TL;DR is that attaching Ninjō / Giri to the Honor, Glory, Status does a disservice to this as a narrative, and is a failure of using the mechanics of the L5R RPG Beta to express the narrative. Pivotal Scenes do not solve this issue, and instead can cater to a particular type of problem player while being rooted in a sense of distrust for the GM. There are solutions to this, however, and I would love to hear the community come together to think this through.

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3 hours ago, FFG Max Brooke said:
Greetings L5R Open Beta testers!

Howdy, and happy holidays!

Quote
  • Any purchase outside of your current school rank now contributes half of its experience value to your current school rank.
  • Rings are no longer included in school curriculums.
  • Experience to complete school ranks is going to be increased significantly.
  • Recommended experience rewards will be dropped to one per hour of play, with two per hour and/or discretionary bonuses for milestones offered as an option for GMs.

Huge fan of all of this, especially the XP reduction; right now it feels like every session is an XP pinata.

Quote
As such, the following is our concept for Ninjō and Giri moving forward:
 
“Once per game session, a player may call for a Pivotal Scene involving their character to occur...

I like this concept a lot. Three notes:

  • I don't think it'll get a lot of use in games with players who are already strong self-advocates. It WILL probably see a lot of use in games with strong GMs and players who aren't very good at self-advocating. Having an explicit mechanism whereby players can say, "Hey, I'm the star of the show now!" is a great idea.
  • Once per session is probably too often. Assuming five players in a game, four hours per session, and half an hour per "scene," you could be looking at more than half the session getting chewed up by Pivotal Scenes. 
  • The Void Point cost doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why not just make it free and assume that players and GMs will self-police on the time-cost involved?
Quote

Now that you’ve read over these options, head over to the survey here and give us your feedback...

I'm going off-book here to talk about the last question on the survey: "which of the following types of supplement would you be most likely to want to purchase?"

I think the thing we need most* are timeline supplements to keep pace with the LCG.

I suggested this on my survey, but I want to post it publicly because I think it's important enough:

  • Mini-supplements that collect timeline info, "state of Rokugan" info, and new mechanics from the last X amount of time in the LCG.
  • You could put them out quarterly, or after each Clan Pack and cycle is released, or anything like that.
  • You don't even need to print them -- just release them as PDFs. I'd happily fork over $5 for a black and white PDF telling me what I need to know from Imperial Cycle.

Take Imperial Cycle, for example. The kinds of things I'd want to know are:

  • Timeline: what major events happened when in the year?
  • Broader Clan perspectives: e.g. we know what's up with Hotaru and Yoshi, but what is the Crane Clan in general doing? What do the Scorpion actually know (versus what Shoju and Kachiko know?)
  • Specific mechanics: something is going wrong with Phoenix magic -- how am I supposed to model that as a GM?
  • NPC Stats: we've just introduced a bunch of characters; how do you stat a mythic-class bushi like Hida Kisada? How does he compare Doji Kuwanan? Or a more everyday samurai like Shinjo Altansarnai's son who raided that village?

Thanks much for listening. I know it's out of left field, but I would be a happy and permanent player if the only supplements you ever published were those mini-updates.

 

 

* Other than a finished corebook with expanded setting information -- which I know is coming and I'm not joggling anybody's elbow about!

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Not a fan of the pivotal scenes.

They have at least two problems I can see:

1- They eat up session time, more so if multiple players call for a pivotal scene.

2- It's session time in which the remaining players are actively sidelined.

 

There are way in which such framing could work, notably troupe play, but that's really never been a mode of play L5R used and the beta hasn't provided any support for it either.

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1 hour ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Not a fan of the pivotal scenes.

They have at least two problems I can see:

1- They eat up session time, more so if multiple players call for a pivotal scene.

2- It's session time in which the remaining players are actively sidelined.

 

There are way in which such framing could work, notably troupe play, but that's really never been a mode of play L5R used and the beta hasn't provided any support for it either.

AMEN! Preach it!

Seriously, I see those two and a third - 

- they're a way to disrupt a narrative that's flowing, but not flowing in your character's favored direction. The disruption of the ongoing flow can often break chains of though and of consequence. I know a few who WILL use the call as a way to delay a fight scene...

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First I want to say - I'm sad the beta is over.  It was really fun to be a part of, trying the new systems, giving feedback, and participating in the community.

I'm excited to see what is done between now and the release to perfect the system.  I do want to use this system when its officially released.  I like the idea of the approaches, strife, ninjo/giri, dueling and how it interacts with strife, as well as the constructed intrigue scenes.  I can't say I love exactly how all of these are done right at this moment in the beta - but I'm excited for these to be official aspects of the game rather than homebrews.

The survey asked whether I liked the new giri/ninjo vs the old... and unfortunately while I like the new one more than the old, its like on a scale of 1-10 I'd put the old one at a 3, and the new one at a 4...  Its not a very large improvement.  I LOVE the idea of players being able to feed into the narrative.  Some of the most enjoyable moments of my group's playtesting have come from players building the narrative with water opportunities.  I don't know that I like the idea of a player simply dominating a scene based around them...  but I'm definitely willing to try it out and see if it helps giri/ninjo come to the forefront.  I would rather have it be something a player can do as a downtime activity, or a sort of special mid-scene action they can call out for which injects their giri/ninjo into the scene.  Something a player can call upon similar to an advantage or disadvantage.

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13 hours ago, Doji Meshou said:

I think the thing we need most* are timeline supplements to keep pace with the LCG.

I suggested this on my survey, but I want to post it publicly because I think it's important enough:

  • Mini-supplements that collect timeline info, "state of Rokugan" info, and new mechanics from the last X amount of time in the LCG.
  • You could put them out quarterly, or after each Clan Pack and cycle is released, or anything like that.
  • You don't even need to print them -- just release them as PDFs. I'd happily fork over $5 for a black and white PDF telling me what I need to know from Imperial Cycle.

Take Imperial Cycle, for example. The kinds of things I'd want to know are:

  • Timeline: what major events happened when in the year?
  • Broader Clan perspectives: e.g. we know what's up with Hotaru and Yoshi, but what is the Crane Clan in general doing? What do the Scorpion actually know (versus what Shoju and Kachiko know?)
  • Specific mechanics: something is going wrong with Phoenix magic -- how am I supposed to model that as a GM?
  • NPC Stats: we've just introduced a bunch of characters; how do you stat a mythic-class bushi like Hida Kisada? How does he compare Doji Kuwanan? Or a more everyday samurai like Shinjo Altansarnai's son who raided that village?

Thanks much for listening. I know it's out of left field, but I would be a happy and permanent player if the only supplements you ever published were those mini-updates.

Agreed. Maintaining the setting as an ongoing 'living campaign' adds a lot.

7 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

AMEN! Preach it!

Seriously, I see those two and a third - 

- they're a way to disrupt a narrative that's flowing, but not flowing in your character's favored direction. The disruption of the ongoing flow can often break chains of though and of consequence. I know a few who WILL use the call as a way to delay a fight scene...

Agreed. I don't think the players in my group would, but it's easy to see the temptation.

Giving the players something like the choice to trigger a demeanour was in Deathwatch (essentially it's a free 'double-fate-point' if the GM agrees what you want to do is suitably awesome and in keeping with your chapter's character) is different to "I want to trigger a new scene that's all about me".

Nothing in that seems too 'special' to be honest. Any important scene should probably change a character's honour and glory.

I do like the Obligation mechanic in Edge of the Empire, because "the fickle finger of fate points at you" seems to work - all of them owe someone something, even if it's just 'payback'. For L5R, it's much more about specifically finding a reason to have them be conflicted; putting the 'nominated' person in a situation where they have to choose the most honourable (read: least dishonourable) action from a selection of unpalatable choices.

 

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35 minutes ago, Chilitoke said:

The current survey leaves no options for those that would prefer a third way.

True. I'll say, tho', that I like the stress as lever. It works for my players. 

In one case, I pointed out that the player's action was a perfect trigger for both... He chose a third way, and took 6 strife, resulting in an unmask and 5 honor loss...

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It is rather ill advised to start messing with XP and progression this late in the game without proper time to really test it. Not saying XP and advancement don't need work, but they are not going to get properly tested and you will have issues down the road.

You still are making the same core mistake you always make: adding needless complexity for marginal to no gain.

Right now the rings only counting for half has the following consequences you have not accounted for:

  • It throws off the numbers for determining power of NPCs.
  • There are now even wider power swings within a school rank
  • Power scale and balance is now off with characters all over the place*
  • Air stance now bounces between useless and op
  • Rings will be perceived as a tax, as to actually use many techniques you need a high ring
  • players will feel like they have to buy more stuff they won't use to advance
  • devalues high level play as can front load characters
  • increases the likelihood of high level characters with multiple rings and skills at 5
  • school abilities that really only pay off at higher school ranks will see less use

*On average you're looking at around 42xp to get to ring 5 and around 14xp to get to skill 5 (assuming skill at 3). Now only 21 of the xp spent on the ring counts toward school rank. "Experience to complete school ranks is going to be increased significantly." so even if it is just 10 extra per rank, you could (and will) end up with characters at rank 2 with ring 5, skill 5, and they will only be at most 1 rank behind the characters that went all in on school advancement. IF you double the XP needed to get to rank 2 from 16 to 32, then you will have rank one characters with ring 5 skill 5.

Since most school abilities are "meh" and higher level techniques basically require maxed out ring and skill, there is still little incentive to focus on school stuff early on for a lot of builds. As characters will have to up rings and skills eventually, those that front load into a high ring/skill will catch up in school rank, likely by rank 3. This basically undermines the only counting rings as half, expect to add complexity and slow the progress, which is now being slowed in other ways as well. So the half ring xp is really just needless mechanics that were poorly thought through.

As WHW noted, every school needs to have some techniques that are early access under the new XP scheme.

School techniques need to be made more interesting and useful as there was already little reason for many characters to focus on raising school rank; this only exacerbates the issue.

There really should be a slow, normal, and fast progression options for XP. Let GMs decide how fast they want the group to advance. Tying XP to time playing is not a good idea. XP needs to be tied to what the characters are doing, not how long the players are seated at a table.

 

Honor, Glory, Ninjō, and Giri all need overhauls.

On 12/21/2017 at 2:24 PM, FFG Max Brooke said:
Ninjō/Giri
 
The development team sat down several weeks ago and asked: what do we want Ninjō and Giri to accomplish, and is it doing those things? Here’s what we came up with:
 
  1. Encourage players to think about the character motives fundamental to samurai drama.
  2. Give players a feeling of agency in the resolution of their characters’ inner turmoil.
  3. Give the GM a way to engage the specific samurai drama stories the players want to tell.

The mechanics as they stand do not achieve any of these. The proposed changes do not really fix Ninjō/Giri and only add more problems.

The core issue here, beyond always adding needless complexity, is that the dev team seems to have a lack of understanding of what creates tension and drama, then trying to force their ill-conceived notions of drama through poorly constructed mechanics. The system should provide the players and GM the tools to create conflict, and from that conflict and the choices  made in dealing with it comes the drama.

Where you've made the mistakes design wise is in putting strife on the dice and making it fairly random instead of making it primarily a consequence of opposing Ninjō/Giri. You have a system that puts strife in everyone's face every roll, but where you can basically ignore honor for entire game sessions. Honor and Glory should be ingrained more into the rest of the system instead of tacked on. More things should scale with honor or glory than with school. More things should require a certain honor or glory as a prerequisite (mostly non-school related techniques). I would even go ahead and decouple the advantages/disadvantages from honor and glory. Let the loss/gain of honor, glory, and status have real impacts. Instead of gumming up the system with strife, you should have been greasing the gears with honor and glory.

You really need to work on streamlining the system so it gets out of the way and lets the people at the table tell a compelling story instead of constantly trying to force drama and thus derailing the drama already unfolding.

IF you really want better storytelling and drama, then spend time in the book explaining how to craft and tell engaging samurai adventures. Spend time on things like story structure, the nature of conflict in samurai drama, and how to explore character motivations. Give examples of how the GM can work characters from PC backstories into the adventure and other tips for giving the story more weight for the players.

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16 minutes ago, jmoschner said:

IF you really want better storytelling and drama, then spend time in the book explaining how to craft and tell engaging samurai adventures. Spend time on things like story structure, the nature of conflict in samurai drama, and how to explore character motivations. Give examples of how the GM can work characters from PC backstories into the adventure and other tips for giving the story more weight for the players.

This is probably the biggest flaw of the beta - there isn't enough world building to give players the cues for drama.  Their description of Giri/Ninjo takes 2 short sections and basically makes it sound like Giri is your job and Ninjo is your hobby.  They should take a full page or more - and not in the middle of chargen - to actually detail the meaning and situations of these as it relates to the Emerald Empire.  This serves to both illustrate the actual meaning of these words and also how important they are to the setting.  Even criminals and hinin have giri/ninjo. 

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My gut says that making rings non-school, increasing the  exp requirement for each rank, and decreasing the rate at which exp is given - all at the same time - is going to combine to dramatically slow down character advancement.  How do other players feel about this?  From playtesting, is advancement currently too fast?  Is it that too fast that all three of these changes are warranted?

Here's a suggestion to the dev team; implement the ring and exp ladder changes, but in the guide suggest a couple of different options for exp gains per sessions so that play groups can decide for themselves how fast to advance. Now sure, giving out more experience is always an option, but IMO it would still be useful to the players if the book included info such like "giving A experience per session will result in characters dedicating their experience to school advances to reach rank 2/3/4/5 in 10/20/35/55/80 sessions, while giving B will allow them to reach ranks in 5/10/18/28/42 sessions, while giving C...."  For the non-fanatic GMs who wouldn't do this math themselves, this provides them a nice menu of options  to consult when designing their campaign.

Edited by easl

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I do agree with a need for Leveling Rates. My group probably would want an ability to switch them within a single campaign, actually! We like blasting through low levels to mid levels, but then would love to stretch the mid levels into as long as possible, so "quick advancement" for Rank 1 would be nice, while "Medium" or "Slow" for ranks 2-3 would be neat.

 

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On 24 December 2017 at 7:07 AM, jmoschner said:

You really need to work on streamlining the system so it gets out of the way and lets the people at the table tell a compelling story instead of constantly trying to force drama and thus derailing the drama already unfolding.

 

This.  A thousand times this.

I like strife as a concept, I have gotten over my dislike of the silly custom dice, but boy does this system get in the way of itself!  

This entire beta has really felt disappointing and has been tinkering around the edges than anything else. The surveys have provided little opportunity beyond an A or B choice on things, that don't change the fact that the system get in the way of story telling and is unintuitive as well.

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I have a group of five players that does 2-3 hour sessions with me GMing. If they all call for a Pivotal Scene every session, that’s probably 20% of our time taken out. Sure, I should be able to fit these into the regular storyline some of the time so it’s not going to divert us completely, but that’s still going to be annoying particularly since it backstages the other four characters.

What’s worse, it seems like you found a mechanical problem and are “fixing” it in a non-mechanical way, essentially (if cynically put) by saying that if the players feel the GM isn’t doing a good job of giving them narrative opportunities they can give him a slap on the wrist and make him do so there and then. With all due respect, that’s lazy and shoddy design that you’re forcing others to make up for. It’s also going to be a massive pain in the neck to make sure the more self-serving and/or creative players don’t run away with the game through this and the less assertive ones get their fair share of the attention.

Wanting to create a narrative game is fine. Doing so by telling the players and GM they should make time to do something narrative is not. It feels like you’re forcing the narrative on the game, rather than building the game around it.

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On 12/23/2017 at 9:07 PM, jmoschner said:

Where you've made the mistakes design wise is in putting strife on the dice and making it fairly random instead of making it primarily a consequence of opposing Ninjō/Giri. You have a system that puts strife in everyone's face every roll, but where you can basically ignore honor for entire game sessions. Honor and Glory should be ingrained more into the rest of the system instead of tacked on. More things should scale with honor or glory than with school. More things should require a certain honor or glory as a prerequisite (mostly non-school related techniques). I would even go ahead and decouple the advantages/disadvantages from honor and glory. Let the loss/gain of honor, glory, and status have real impacts. Instead of gumming up the system with strife, you should have been greasing the gears with honor and glory.

Making honor and glory primary motivations for characters is a suitable basis for a narrative RPG. It’s not a suitable basis for a L5R game though. Not every PC in a L5R game should play like a stereotypical Lion or Crane.

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5 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Well, not every game should be about L5R Standard Samurai Drama(tm) either, and still... 

That’d be a better argument if the rules weren’t what they are. The rules for this beta clearly suggest that yes, every game should be about samurai drama. They also suggest that there are several clans and that every clan has unique views on honor. If the idea is to have every character share largely the same notions about honor, attach the same importance to it, and be motivated to act honorably in the same way, the rules shouldn’t tell us that this is not the case for characters that adhere to their clan and family’s type.

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5 hours ago, Doji Meshou said:

I respect that everyone's L5R is different, but narrative and mechanical Honor have underpinned nearly every part of L5R-as-written for literally decades. 

Yes, but not uniformly for all characters across all clans, families and schools. Not everyone is motivated by it the same way. That makes it a bad primary motivator for the game in general.

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52 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

That’d be a better argument if the rules weren’t what they are. The rules for this beta clearly suggest that yes, every game should be about samurai drama. They also suggest that there are several clans and that every clan has unique views on honor. If the idea is to have every character share largely the same notions about honor, attach the same importance to it, and be motivated to act honorably in the same way, the rules shouldn’t tell us that this is not the case for characters that adhere to their clan and family’s type.

The rules suggest that everyone is supposed to be the same, with only Questions 7 and 8 making any difference. Outside of these two Questions there is nothing (as far as I'm aware of) that makes any difference. Even playing a special snowflake will only award you two Skills, but otherwise, both the rules and the fluff will treat you like the most archetypical samurai of your Clan anyway. 

Heck, the first draft of the rules went so far it only allowed the counter-stereotype as an option. 

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2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

The rules suggest that everyone is supposed to be the same, with only Questions 7 and 8 making any difference. Outside of these two Questions there is nothing (as far as I'm aware of) that makes any difference. Even playing a special snowflake will only award you two Skills, but otherwise, both the rules and the fluff will treat you like the most archetypical samurai of your Clan anyway. 

Heck, the first draft of the rules went so far it only allowed the counter-stereotype as an option. 

Everyone from the same clan/family/school, yes. Which isn’t even that surprising, in a very traditional and hierarchical society. Should Hida Berserker Bob, Bayushi Courtier Jim, Matsu Beastmaster Carl and Asahina Shugenja Pete all have similar views on honor though? And make similar decisions based on those views?

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59 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Everyone from the same clan/family/school, yes. Which isn’t even that surprising, in a very traditional and hierarchical society. Should Hida Berserker Bob, Bayushi Courtier Jim, Matsu Beastmaster Carl and Asahina Shugenja Pete all have similar views on honor though? And make similar decisions based on those views?

Technically, they should. They can still choose to don't, but the mechanics are not very supportive towards that attitude, so to speak. 

In the same way, I can choose to completely cut out the samurai drama... and actually lose literally nothing with it. If you know what I mean. 

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