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Nerf Harpoons

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Maybe we already have the Harpoon missile counter. Apologies if it’s already been mentioned, but I haven’t read the entire thread. There’s an EPT from wave 1 and onward that may actually see play now. “Expert Handling”. If you don’t have a barrel roll, you gain one, at the cost of stress.  When you barrel roll, you clear enemy target locks. 

Instead of looking at the old stuff harpoons are making obsolete, maybe consider what old stuff they can add value to.

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I think Nerf Herders should be removed from the game and all nerfrattas should be repealed so we can go back to a table top game true to form, not dependent on some digitally published F.A.Q. ...

...but we can't all get what we want, now can we IG88E?-_-

Edited by Marinealver

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they would be better if only one hit when through on the initial attack. Make them like the TLT.  they cause too much damage to be causing more damage later.  Just my opinion.

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Here's something I was thinking about:

Should Countermeasures lose "large ship only."

One issue with alpha strike lists is that there aren't many effective counter-cards for small ships.  Expert Handling is awkward, Black One is a unique title, and Countermeasures is large-only.  Perhaps some of that ought to change, and making Countermeasures available to all ships seems like an interesting option.

//

Ban? Other.  I'd like them to be 5 points (more to put them more in line with other missiles, rather than because they're necessarily broken in themselves...  I don't like power creep and confusion coming in at a discount price).

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19 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Call me crazy, but Harpoons are growing on me.  I actually really like the meta they've spawned.  

You have a few categories of ships:

1.)  Low PS Harpoon Carriers:  Tough enough to take a hit and nasty enough that nobody wants to land in their arc.  There's a minor PS contest between these guys.  Usually have some movement limitations. (Example:  Gunboat, Kimogila) 

2.)  Turrets:  get mauled by Harpoons, and have modest attack compared to category 1, but have a turret so they can be more flexible in movement.  (Example:  Decimator, Han Solo)

3.)   Aces:  get mauled by Harpoons, but have the mobility to get out of the way of some of them.  Modest attacks, but good maneuverability and defense to get the most out of them.  (Example:  Poe, Kylo)

4.)  High PS Jousters:  These ships either have huge innate attack or carry Harpoons themselves.  They usually have better maneuverability and PS than Category 1, but at the cost of points. (Example:  Quickdraw, Rey)

These different groups all have interesting interplay between each other.  Also, the power of the Harpoon drives PS up, which helps generics, who aren't bidding on PS.  It helps reduce the raw jousting power of aces when there's a PS war.  Add in generic, accessible action efficiency cards like Flight Assist Astromech and Advanced Optics, and its a pretty interesting metagame.

Well typed.......again, geeeze @Biophysical, can you type stupid now and then just to make the rest of us feel better?

18 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Personally I quite like Harpoons and the current meta they're creating.  I don't think they're overpowered, at least not any more than a couple of dozen other things in the game are.

This.

 

Anything that reduces damage mitigation, most of those nasty TLT carriers and forces its user to fire out of the classic 80 degree arc, is crazy GOOD for the game in my opinion.

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Maybe.... just maybe... I would be ok with Harpoons being range 1-2 since there’s this image in my head that harpoons are slow large, requiring a shorter range.  

Anyway, look at the good ol Concussion Missle.  It already changes a blank to a hit, and Chimps makes another die into a hit (or crit).  So spending the TL isn’t that big of a deal, since on average you are getting at least 3 hits, and a good chance of 4 hits with one being a crit, without rerolls or focus tokens.

 

 The Harpoon gets chimps, maybe, but that’s the only other mod it will get without spending more points.  The TL will get you rerolls but low ps ships will want either LRS for the initial TL or deadeye to not worry about it but only have a focus for mods.  It’s all still dependent on arcs and the condition will Require other ships or attacks to set off in the same round.  So it’s close to the right price.  Have Harpoons been that big of a game changer already since G4H hit?

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8 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Anyway, look at the good ol Concussion Missle

I played around 10 games with concussion instead of Harpoons, so I have at least a tiny bit of anecdotal experience to say that the two are just not comparable. But we can also look at the raw numbers instead.

Harpoons are mathematically better, even without the condition. Then you can also add the condition and splash, and Harpoons are way, way better.

F+TL: 3.75

TL+GC: 3.684

F+TL+GC: 3.978

Concussion+GC: 3.496

Concussion+F: 3.684

Concussion+F+GC: 3.945

Edit: just to explain my stance, since I know I said both that Harpoons are not a problem and that Harpoons are better than all alternatives.

My point of view at the moment is that the Harpoon is the obvious ordnance of choice, especially if you can get Focus+TL reliably on a ship that prefers other mods than Guidance Chips. But also that the impact of Harpoons on the meta was buffered by list adaptions (Countermeasures, Experthandling (!), Blackone) and by new(ish) ship and upgrade releases which made several ships very good. 

Now this strong missile makes older ships viable in a meta where they would have no chance otherwise, mostly due to Wookies, Miranda and Scurrgs as far as I can tell at the moment. Also they are partially responsible for new importance of arcs and maneuvering. Also: shorter games. The downside is the new PS war.

Edited by GreenDragoon

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Well, I guess everyone will just need to fly Z-95 swarms with Deadman switch and once they get hit with a ‘poon they fly up to range one of the enemy and just ‘choose’ not to cancel crits.  If that’s possible. 

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On 12/28/2017 at 0:50 PM, MarekMandalore said:

Maybe we already have the Harpoon missile counter. Apologies if it’s already been mentioned, but I haven’t read the entire thread. There’s an EPT from wave 1 and onward that may actually see play now. “Expert Handling”. If you don’t have a barrel roll, you gain one, at the cost of stress.  When you barrel roll, you clear enemy target locks. 

Instead of looking at the old stuff harpoons are making obsolete, maybe consider what old stuff they can add value to.

True story I just won a tournament with Lothal Rebel/AP-1/Poe w/ black one and expert handling. Flew Poe ahead and he could dump two target locks a round, one from the Ghost if someone slinked by. I think it would work similarly well on a High PS ship.

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Harpoons and Trajectory Simulators seem to be the new meta, at least for now, looking at the Regionals feeds this weekend.

On the one hand, it's nice to see ordinance. On the other hand, I think we have our new Jumpmasters in Harpoon missiles.

 

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34 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That can't be right, because neutering AdvSLAM took care of Miranda's dominance.

Someday her pilot ability will be once per game and a lasting peace will be restored to the galaxy.

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Just now, Boom Owl said:

Someday her pilot ability will be once per game and a lasting peace will be restored to the galaxy.

If she couldn't use TLT, she'd be fine.  Seriously.  And TLT would be fine without Miranda.  They are a #$%^-for-balance synergy.

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5 hours ago, IG88E said:

Harpoons dominating majority of regionals..how boring

Multiple Choice Meta!!

_____________ dominating majority of regionals..how boring.

A.  PTW.

B.  TLT.

C.  Bombs.

D.  Harpoons.

E.  JM5K.

F.  Nym.

G.  All of the above.

H.  N/A.  I play Epic.

I.  Ask me in a few days.  I have to decide what's stuck in my craw this week.

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1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Multiple Choice Meta!!

_____________ dominating majority of regionals..how boring.

A.  PTW.

B.  TLT.

C.  Bombs.

D.  Harpoons.

E.  JM5K.

F.  Nym.

G.  All of the above.

H.  N/A.  I play Epic.

I.  Ask me in a few days.  I have to decide what's stuck in my craw this week.

 This. Since the release of the Phantom, has there ever been a meta where one or two lists weren't at least a little dominant? Where there were bogeymen that you had to have a plan for? ****, even before that the TIE Swarm was the terror to be overcome. There's always something.

Don't get me wrong: I really dislike Harpoon missiles. I think they're an example of power creep and complexity creep that should have been nipped in the bud by FFG designers paying attention. But they weren't, so until they're nerfed, I'm running lists that can strip TLs and Focus tokens. The same way that when x7 Defenders were dominant I ran lists that could deal with evade tokens, or when OG torp boats were dominant I ran lists that could prevent them firing their torps. Frankly, if a small number of lists or upgrades dominating the competitive meta is boring to you, then I'm guessing X Wing has been boring for you since... always?

And honestly, I can see how people might find the dominance of, say, TLT or PS 1 Wookies boring where you just one straight and roll dice. But Harpoons? Say what you will about them, but flying against them is about manoeuvring, millimetre perfect range control, precise post-manoeuvre repositioning to strip Target Locks and seat of your pants, critical defence dice rolling where failure will devastate your chances of winning. It's any things - intense, challenging, exciting, often frustrating - but boring? It's not that.

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