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VarniusEisen

Gun bunny problems

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Cifer said:

Obviously, he can't walk down the street without having a squad of local enforcers asking to see his mercenaries permit and/or generally following him around. Forget going to the Baroness's ball or into any place that has anything resembling security. Oh, and don't forget the random gangers and other cocky idiots either throwing down or ambushing him for a chance at the arsenal. But again... where's the problem.

Apart from the Baroness' ball (where he should be able to get away with a bolt pistol at least. After all, he likely is the security for his Rogue Trader), most other situations shouldn't present that much of a problem. RT Arch-Militants are veterans and they're likely known. Anyone trying to take them from his cold, dead hands is either very experienced (in which case he'd be even more of a problem if the Militant wasn't as well-armed since he's likely not just after the guns) or very naive (in which case they're pretty dead, considering the defensive gear the AM will likely be packing as well).

Rogue Trader is not Dark Heresy.

A RT Arch-militant might be a "steely eyed veteran" but unless he's been in that particular part of the orbital/hive city/planet before and made himself known he is just another steely eyed veteran among others. Enforcers and security armsmen will watch him closely precisely because he is so obviously dangerous and it's their job to watch dangerous people. Gangers and thugs certainly could be naive enough to test him... once, then I agree they are very dead, very fast... but it's still inconvient and attracts unwanted attention.

The 40k universe is the 40k universe. It's a dangerous place.

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Besides the sheer absurdity of this situation one thing lept off the post at me:

You have an ex-Imperial Guardsman turned Archmilitant packing a complete Exitus weapons system in addition to all that other bulky kit?!

Simple, brutal, fatal solution:

The Officio Assassinourum wants it's weapons back.  Vindicare Temple Assassin murders the offending character and reclaims the weapons.  Does the Rogue Trader wish to take the matter up with the High Lords of Terra?  Yeah, didn't think so.

Remember, you don't get a reaction if you are unaware of the attack!

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ZillaPrime said:

Remember, you don't get a reaction if you are unaware of the attack!

Well...  Unless we're talking about any of the actual temple assassins (Callidus, Culexus, Eversor and Vindicare).  Those guys are like ghosts...  Hard to see, hard to kill, and apparently so preternaturally aware of threats to their well being that they can dodge just about anything whether they see it coming or not.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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I have a similar issue, due to one members need to powergame (does it in every system we use mind you) and my way of solving it is that he, an arch-militant who carries a storm bolter, hellgun, meltagun, and two handed chain axe, usually gets rushed first and foremost by hordes so that he can't bring any of his heavy weaponry to bear and must turn to melee. Problem is he can carry all that with ease - 60+ str and 60+ to, he took  the brute mutation and has spend all of his xp so far on boosting str and to.  

I do like a couple of suggestions I've found here that I think I'm going to slot in, I might get him to let me know where everything is, especially ammo so that if he gets hit by particularily large amounts of damage ( and he can take a lot) the ammo might explode. I'll probably even get him to start making upkeep tests after combats to see if anything has been damaged, especially if he has been hit at all - It may be that he loses a couple of clips of ammo for a weapon. And Lastly, if the archmilitant insists on carrying all that around, he's gonna atttract a lot of attention usually all bad and impose some severe penalties to information gathering. 

 

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My group are fairly careful about what they carry and min/maxing their PCs after a few unfortunate runins.

Ok, Paul - you are wearing power armor, carrying about 8 guns, grenades, weapons, etc so you can make that Agility check at -30 to cross that weak planking above the bottomless pit....

Make perception tests at -60 to spot the Eldar Ranger sniper 1.2 km away, nobody make it? Ok, he opens up on the most obviously armed and armored PC - that'll be you again then....

How long are you leaving your forcefield on for? Permanently, ok, so an hour passes of you wandering about the deep dark forest.. oh look your Forcefield is out of juice...

With your Refractor field on, you're doing a reasonable impersonation of a ready-brek glow, thats gonna make your hide rolls a little challenging....

The Chaos Marine issues his challenge to the most armed and armored opponent, hey! Thats you dude! gui%C3%B1o.gif I used that one! It was great, he wasn't actually a Chaos Marine but the PC's thought he was... At least 1 PC went a little grey and lost a limb on it.

I tend toward similarly armed opposition, once they've been on the receiving end of that a few times their new PCs will get the message. You shoulda heard them squeal the first time an enemy used a fate point.

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Cifer said:

@Surak

At one point he was carrying; a hunting rifle (scoped w. silencer), a Voss anti-material rifle (a Barrat-light-50 heavy sniper of my creation), 2 autopistols (with red-dots and duplex mags), 2 web-pistols (with red-dots and duplex mags), and a hand-cannon with a silencer and red-dot.

So... where's the problem? Hunting rifle and AM rifle strapped to the back, possibly partially disassembled, autopistols strapped to the thigs, webpistols on the lower thigs and hand cannon across the lower back.

 

(Sorry if this rambles a bit but I felt some clarification was needed on my part.)

       The problem I had comes from the fact that all of our group play a sport (similar to paintball) called airsoft, and therefore should know better. The main difference between the two sports is our kit is of realistic weight and design, and I can assure you that carrying two pairs of pistols on the thigh makes walking a somewhat problematic experience, let alone running or dodging. I essentually carry a hunting rifle (m14) and autopistol (uzi) when playing airsoft and the two of them are just about the sensible limit for what someone can carry for a useable length of time. the hand cannon (essentually a .50 cal pistol) will sit in the small of the back, as long as you don't want to sit down without cracking you pelvis. and as for the AM rifle it was the height of the character and he insisted it was in a ready to use state.

 Now i know some will say "its not real life, give a bit of lea-way" which I accept. But lea-way has its limits when you know that the person is doing it for pure power-gaming reasons and not because he thinks his character would carry all the kit.

(and back on topic)

If you really want to deal with a gun bunny (and have a little fun as the GM as well) look no further than Tattered Fates (from DH) now I know its not really a RT adventure but with a little work..... I mean what Rogue Trader worth the name doesn't have powerful enough enemies that they might co-opt the beast house into making a ****** and grab lengua.gif 

 

Surak

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Surak said:

The problem I had comes from the fact that all of our group play a sport (similar to paintball) called airsoft, and therefore should know better. The main difference between the two sports is our kit is of realistic weight and design, and I can assure you that carrying two pairs of pistols on the thigh makes walking a somewhat problematic experience, let alone running or dodging. I essentually carry a hunting rifle (m14) and autopistol (uzi) when playing airsoft and the two of them are just about the sensible limit for what someone can carry for a useable length of time.

M14 long or SOCOM ? I personally like the EBR (which has a folding stock) but Kart M14s can't compare to TM or Cyma. Oooops, I went into airsoft geek mode by accident. Sorry.

Back to the topic, I think that the GM simply should explain to the player that there's no way for a PC to be ready for everything the GM can throw at him. RPGs simply don't work like this. He should instead go for a believable equipment and trust his GM for putting him against an adequate challenge.

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One thing I try to keep in mind in these situations (I've GM'd Cyberpunk 2020 a lot...)  is the old adage "guns don't kill people; bullets do." Which makes me wonder just how is the gun bunny going to acquire ammo for the Exitus weapons? And who's going to perform maintenance on such finely-tuned tech?

I prefer not to kill off characters because their players act like idiots (granted, I've never had to endure persistent morons for players), I much rather smack them in the face with common sense and causality so hard it leaves a mark! :)

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Why would you invent penalties for your PCs where they don't exist, or need to exist?

Step1)  Is the weaponry within his encumberance limit.  If yes, continue to step 2

Step 2) Can he realistically carry all of the items on his body? (This includes, but is not limited to, 2 rifles strapped across the back, 2 pistols on hips, 2 small melee weapons on forearms, 1 long melee weapon along the spine, 2 thigh mounted pistols or medium sized weapons, 2 shin mounted pistols or small melee weapons, 2 pistols or small melee weapons at the small of the back, and bandolier of ammo, belt with pouches for ammo).  If Yes, proceed to step 3.

Step 3) Move on and play the game.

 

This Gun Bunny actually carries LESS firepower than the one that was brought up in the Dark Heresy forums.  And congrats to your player having found such an exotic and stylish weapon as Exitus weapons, it's a game, enjoy it for what it is.  There's no reason to add extra made up penalties, there are plenty of them in the game as it is.

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I have a character in DH with a stupid amount of weapons, no sctratch that a biblicly stupid amount of weapons. Now as  a GM i have to behave when playing. The Character has the right tools for the job. in my mind in a 'heroic' game setting a pair of pistols and a long arm of some sort seems reasnable. Your player need to buy some weapons lockers!

I tend with my players to only enforce the rules like encumberence when they break rule 7, don't take the .....

If they do break rule 7 you have got the rules in the back to stop them. As an ex-reanactor and a LARPer (CP and FR for those who care!) you find that roleplaying games rarly give you the real idea of what carrying that much kit does to you and how akward it is, trust me no one carrys a two handed sword, pair of long swords, a shield, knives and wear plate armour and does things like sit down, moves quickly, turns etc! :)

I remeber GMing a lot of games where your in a firefight and a player would say 'i'm firing my minigun' and i am very WTF? On the other hand there is the rule of cool, if it's cool let it go. What your player was carrying is not however cool, it is sadly gun bunny. I would have a sit down and a chat about myself.

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jesusjohn said:

Your player need to buy some weapons lockers!

Or he could hire a caddy to push all his weapons on a small trolley. Very classy...

"Lucius ! Fetch me the storm bolter, please !'

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I must admit I do come more on the "its a game suspend belief" side of the argument although perhaps because I have done worse. A heavy flamer, a pair of shields, a pair of vanheims, a pair of las pistols, and a pair of power swords and a bolt gun is my standard loadout. Admittedly that charecter is now dead but it had nothing to do with a lack of gun. Really if it is bothering the rest of the players I would step in but if no one else is bothered by it then I don't see the problem.

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if it  becomes a real problem I usualy have my players enemies hire a competent sniper to deal with it..... :P

I dont think a gun bunny like that would see the hotshot lasround coming from 400+ meters away when he isn't expecting it

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This is an interesting problem to tackle as a GM and I like a lot of the suggestions I've been reading so far.  There are a few things I would avoid doing, though.  Don't do anything to specifically target the player for his load-out.  You don't want to pick on him because he is following the rules (albeit to the letter, rather than the spirit).  Any of the suggestions that offer a natural and arbitrary solution are great though.  Before implementing anything, ask yourself this - is this course of action something that could reasonably affect all of the PCs or is this a "solution" that really only applies in this instance.  You don't want to set a precedent that will come back and bite you in the ass.

In addition to the obvious social engagements, tight quarters and personal space ideas that have been brought up so far, I'd like to point out that carrying around that much gear may be within his encumbrance, but it's not like that isn't a considerable weight to be carrying around everywhere.  I may be able to lift and carry 75lbs comfortably for a while, but after a few hours or even days that weight is going to hinder me.  Consider taking a long view on the problem and think about how a normal human person would fair in a similar modern situation.

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Something I used to run with in D&D (and may consider porting over) was the idea of a 'light load (under 1/2 capasity well distributed)' and 'heavy load (up to capasity)'.  For endurance related tests, or just if the parties been hiking all day, anyone carrying a heavy load would end up fategued or with other simmilar penalties.  If you do something like this though, be sure to apply it to everyone, including your NPCs.  My rival Rogue Traders, for example, always have servitors to carry all their expidition equipment so they don't have to walk around with any more then their armor and maybe a light side-arm.

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shoot him and make him re-roll gui%C3%B1o.gif

However this may not be fun. I myself would say tough, this is not the matrix so please get a grip. You cannot carry all those guns due to the Bulk Factor - and limit his choices to 1 long arm - 1 mid sized and 2 hand sized wepons - more then enough for anyone.

As to ammo - limit him to 6 clips, it's not unknown in stories for characters to use one gun till empty, discard and use another till empty.

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BrotherHostower said:

This Gun Bunny actually carries LESS firepower than the one that was brought up in the Dark Heresy forums.  And congrats to your player having found such an exotic and stylish weapon as Exitus weapons, it's a game, enjoy it for what it is.  There's no reason to add extra made up penalties, there are plenty of them in the game as it is.

 

definitely...

and I'ld say.. just keep the weight limits to the rules and impose social  penalties ... (or just directly steer them to situations where it is not acceptable or applicable to carry that armory)

if he really wants to keep the stuff on him and live with the penalties... ok...

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Well, is gun-bunnyism really a problem in RT? It's not like a single gunbunny, no matter how powerful, can take on an entire enemy ship, let alone conquer a planet for the God-Emperor. The macro-scale RT is played on puts an effective tab on how far you can get with personal heroism imo.

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Social sanctions whenever applicable, all the way. While what he does is not a crime in the Empire (especially for a Rogue Trader's retinue), it is asking for trouble in the Arbitrators' book and a breach of etiquette in the nobles' book. After some time if he doesn't get the hint, the rest of the team will spell it clearly for him.

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Neodreamweaver said:

I think this comic correctly sums everything up
http://www.servantsoftheimperium.com/comic/index.php?comicid=2

Ooh, thanks for reminding me...  I hadn't read my joyful addiction in almost a month.  I love that comic.  Later, we find out that Krin starts using his holster to carry something other than handguns.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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