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Let's Explain Away Last Jedi Stuff (so it doesn't hurt our games) SPOILERS

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2 hours ago, Mark Caliber said:

I didn't read anything in this thread because I haven't seen The Last Jedi yet, so I'm avoiding the spoilers but . . .

For My Star Wars RPG's I'm ignoring everything post ROTJ because it's all garbage.  (I liked Rogue One but even that had Galaxy breaking continuity issues).

Heck, I realized this morning that I have NEVER flown a TFA era vehicle in any of my games of X-Wing, even though I own a handful.  I hate TFA with that much vehemence I refuse to do anything with it besides hunt them down and dispatch them with unbridled enthusiasm.

Maybe one day, I'll break out a T-70 and use it . . .

You Sir are a very interesting person, but not someone you would like to meet in a bus at night. ^_^

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10 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

You Sir are a very interesting person, but not someone you would like to meet in a bus at night. ^_^

That actually depends entirely upon what you want to talk about.  ;)  But yes, I suffer fools poorly.  :wacko:

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On 12/18/2017 at 6:21 AM, CaptainRaspberry said:

This should be a Formidable, if not outright Impossible Piloting (Space) check, no matter the craft being used.

I would make it an Impossible Astrogation check; it's more a matter of bypassing hyperdrive safety features and fiddling with the settings, than physically guiding the ship. 

Also, note Rogue One; smaller vessels just bounced off Vader's star destroyer and/or were themselves destroyed when their hyperspace jumps intersected the Devastator's exit.

So upgrade the check a couple of times, too. Per Holdo's appearance in the Leia novel, she was a smart person.

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On 12/18/2017 at 6:24 AM, Sturn said:
  1. Slow-moving capital ships can be destroyed by kamikaze ships launching into hyperspace. Why haven't we seen this before? How can we make this a rare, over-costly, or extremely hard to do option for our PCs to avoid, "I'm putting my astromech in this battered Z95 and having it hyperspace into that pirate Corvette!"

My wife caught this one. Funny since she's not much of a rules monkey.

It's hard. Not something you can just up and do. Her reference was in Rogue One and how the escaping Rebels hit the Star Destroyer and bounce off. 

The Raddus had the Advantage of being a big ship too.

So a boosted ram is doable with some sharp leverage of existing rules, but a super jump ram like Admiral evening gown did is super difficult and thus limited to NPC story work or impossible checks likely to result in player Character death.

Quote

"Bombers" exist that for some reason must get close to attack (as opposed to launching missiles like a Y-wing) and have bombs that fall....in 0G

Yeah, bothered me too. Though again, Y-wings did it in R1.

Assuming those bombers were designed for hitting stations and ground targets and using them against a ship was one of those "desperate and resourceful rebels" things.

Still B-24s are an analog, and they used them in the Pacific.

The "dropping" can be written off easier. The ball turret gunner had gravity, the bomb bay had gravity, so it was the bombers own artificial gravity kicking the bombs out. They "fell" out of the bomber and just "coasted" the rest of the way.

Quote
  1. Force powers have taken a leap in what they can do. "I want that ultimate protection that Leia has so I can brush off huge explosions and survive in space....and she was only a force sensitive btw". or "But, Move can be used to toss aside large amounts of heavy boulders or demolish small buildings, so why can't I do it too?"

These bothered me less than range. Some of that can just be interpreted as some flashy Triumph. 

The range stuff is either a liberally interpreted "extreme" range, or more likely just NPC handwaving for story sake.

Remember, Luke, Leia, and such weren't really PCs this time around. How many times has a D&D villian just done something stupid powerful via handwaved magic?

On 12/18/2017 at 6:24 AM, Sturn said:

Turbolasers are much less effective (less damage) at longer ranges (which don't seem to be very far) per a quote during the space chase. Rule change needed?

Easy.

"Sir, none of our gunners have the Sniper-shot talent, but our helmsmen are rolling even with thiers on our chase checks!"

On 12/18/2017 at 6:24 AM, Sturn said:

Hyperspace fuel

...there is a problem here? I mean other than not being openly mentioned in a film before what's the issue?

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It just occured to me that the First Order ships may not have had their shields up. There was no reason to drain the power, as they werent getting shot at and werent going to. It may be that shields would stop the ship going into hyper. 

My view of the ram is that it was a special case in a special circumstance. Most Cruisers captains wont waste thousands of lives on a suicide tactic, so it doesnt come up very often at all. On top of that, a ship that is maneuvering is very hard to actually hit, and if they are shooting you at the time, its hard to actually reach the target before you are destroyed. 

Basically, the only reason the ram worked is that the First Order captains knew it was just running away, they knew there was no threat and so they didnt think of what could happen until too late. On top of that it took everything to line up just right. Basically a one in a million shot

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Hyperspace fuel doesn't bother me. Its been canon for a good while.

The WWII bomber analog is, realistic or not, classic Lucasian style.

This is the guy who wanted space-hot rods. 

Star Wars is not science fiction - its serial space pulp.

Rule of Cool is what rules.

If you don't think its cool, throw it out. I will.

Leia's force power? Yeah, I thought it was dumb, so... I ignore it.

Slow space cruisers? We don't know if they were slow or fast because the pursuit speeds were relative.

This is more of more pacing and directorial issue than an in-universe technology issue.

Luke's power up was awesome, and would an entire force tree and committing all his force dice.

I'm okay with that!

Honestly, all SW films have weird fridge logic issues and fan-angst-wingefest points.

I still loved it.

But, for all that, my game is AU and set in 12 BBY. 

None of this happened.

Edited by Vondy

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44 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

A leak and lack of fuel to reach coruscant was the reason for landing on Tatooine in TPM. 

Also, and this is admittedly not solid evidence:  but in ANH when they were prepping the fighters right before the attack on the Death Star, there was a shot of a ground crewman detaching a hose from one of them.  It was never explicitly stated to be a fuel line, but I think that's the most straightforward assumption. 

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17 hours ago, coyote6 said:

Also, note Rogue One; smaller vessels just bounced off Vader's star destroyer and/or were themselves destroyed when their hyperspace jumps intersected the Devastator's exit.

I don't think that's what happens. Only one ship impacts the Star Destroyer, and it's not displaying the hyperspace jump effect at the time. It's still moving conventionally. And the Destroyer's jump movement has stopped by the time of the impact. It's a sublight collision just prior to a jump.

Edited by Stan Fresh

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On 12/18/2017 at 8:24 AM, Sturn said:

Quite a few things popped up in the Last Jedi that need to be explained away so it doesn't become an issue in future gaming sessions. GM's let us arm ourselves for the inevitable hyperspace bombs coming our way.

SPOILERS BELOW

First, a list of what may need to be explained or receive rules changes? Please respond with other issues and I will edit this list.

  1. Slow-moving capital ships can be destroyed by kamikaze ships launching into hyperspace. Why haven't we seen this before? How can we make this a rare, over-costly, or extremely hard to do option for our PCs to avoid, "I'm putting my astromech in this battered Z95 and having it hyperspace into that pirate Corvette!"
  2. "Bombers" exist that for some reason must get close to attack (as opposed to launching missiles like a Y-wing) and have bombs that fall....in 0G.
  3. Force powers have taken a leap in what they can do. "I want that ultimate protection that Leia has so I can brush off huge explosions and survive in space....and she was only a force sensitive btw". or "But, Move can be used to toss aside large amounts of heavy boulders or demolish small buildings, so why can't I do it too?"
  4. Turbolasers are much less effective (less damage) at longer ranges (which don't seem to be very far) per a quote during the space chase. Rule change needed?
  5. Hyperspace fuel.
  6. .......

1. This is a thing but it requires you to not be shot down first, or for those ships to not move out of the way or take out your Hyperdrive or main engine. It destroys whatever ship you had used and everyone on board, it's costly but works for a last ditch effort. If you keep programming droids to do stuff like this, you'll probably earn a reputation with the droid community.

 

2. Short-range explosives, lost some of their movement to make room for more explosive impact. They aren't falling so much as the Bombers are orienting their bomb bays towards the ship and then launching them out. We are just seeing it is dropping because if the movie had things angled sideways, it would have been confusing. Also, physics are more of a guideline in Star Wars.

 

3. Leia is a Skywalker. As Luke told her in Return of the Jedi, the Force is strong in his family and that one day she would learn to use that power herself. She's clearly an NPC that the GM wanted to keep alive and her injury was merely narrative to serve the needs of the plot.

 

4. They were out of range of the Turbolasers... Narratively, they were losing power but mechanically they were essentially shooting at stuff that they were never going to hit. It's like when a Stormtrooper shoots at a fleeing spaceship. Their shots aren't going to do anything to it, it's just to keep up the action and tension of the scene.

 

5. Hyperdrives are engines, they need fuel.

 

6. Ellipses have no power here!

Edited by GroggyGolem

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4 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I don't think that's what happens. Only one ship impacts the Star Destroyer, and it's not displaying the hyperspace jump effect at the time. It's still moving conventionally. And the Destroyer's jump movement has stopped by the time of the impact. It's a sublight collision just prior to a jump.

That's what I was thinking. Basically there's only a small window of time, likely less than a second, where a ship is transitioning from realspace to hyperspace and a collision can generate the kind if catastrophic result seen in the movie. Too soon you just impact at  high speed, too late you enter hyperspace before impact.

Basically it technically doable under existing ramming rules if you really want to, and multiple Triumphs and GM backing will allow you to get what you see on screen. But it's so flipping hard that the catastrophic hit is more luck than science (outside of carefully worked laboratory-like conditions) that it's not something you can legitimately weaponize.

And since in this case Admiral evening gown was an NPC, she had the benefit of the GM just saying "Boom, it happened... Amid cheers you hear 3PO mention the odds. You don't hear the number, but four digit exponents were involved."

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24 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

That's what I was thinking. Basically there's only a small window of time, likely less than a second, where a ship is transitioning from realspace to hyperspace and a collision can generate the kind if catastrophic result seen in the movie. Too soon you just impact at  high speed, too late you enter hyperspace before impact.

 

That actually solves my big problem with this - why aren't asteroids with hyperdrives common weapons of mass destruction.

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Just now, Stan Fresh said:

That actually solves my big problem with this - why aren't asteroids with hyperdrives common weapons of mass destruction.

I think in EU pirates would use tractor beams to place asteroids in hyperlanes specifically so that ships would have to drop out or suffer that kind of a hit, allowing the pirates to overtake them once they drop into realspace.

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8 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

I think in EU pirates would use tractor beams to place asteroids in hyperlanes specifically so that ships would have to drop out or suffer that kind of a hit, allowing the pirates to overtake them once they drop into realspace.

I dunno, that doesn't seem to rhyme with how hyperspace is presented in the movies. You can be pulled out by a gravity well, but you're not traveling through the same space/dimension/layer/whatever as sublight matter. You're in hyperspace, after all. So I think according to the movies ships wouldn't be affected unless those "asteroids" were the size of a small world.

But that's all pretty murky and narrative.

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1 hour ago, Ghostofman said:

That's what I was thinking. Basically there's only a small window of time, likely less than a second, where a ship is transitioning from realspace to hyperspace and a collision can generate the kind if catastrophic result seen in the movie. Too soon you just impact at  high speed, too late you enter hyperspace before impact.

This explanation is perfect for me and exactly the type of stuff I was looking for when creating this thread. Make it a very difficult Astrogation check. Failure can result in the ramming ship failing to enter hyperspace (regular ramming rules apply) or entering hyperspace too soon and thus missing the target completely.

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2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I dunno, that doesn't seem to rhyme with how hyperspace is presented in the movies. You can be pulled out by a gravity well, but you're not traveling through the same space/dimension/layer/whatever as sublight matter. You're in hyperspace, after all. So I think according to the movies ships wouldn't be affected unless those "asteroids" were the size of a small world.

But that's all pretty murky and narrative.

Yeah from what I understand there isn't necessarily an emphasis on the size of the object, just if it's in the pathway. Now some of the canon media like Star Wars Rebels shows that you don't follow a straight path with multiple drop outs for correction but that you turn slightly in transit. That means something actually has to be in the way and the ship's sensors should kick in and warn you to drop out or you'll collide. So if it were a smaller object, the timing would just have to be right for the ship to have to drop out of hyperspace because the new pathway can't be updated quickly enough.

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3 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I dunno, that doesn't seem to rhyme with how hyperspace is presented in the movies.

But it is what is canon, even a space whale on a hyperspace lane can cause fatal accidents. 
 

Quote

I guess for now we follow the Purrgil.
Hey.
For what it's worth, I've got a good feeling about this.
Go check your cabins.
Make sure everything is switched off.
We've gotta save every little bit of fuel.
Come on, big guy.
It's colder back there.
I never imagined there were creatures in deep space.
When I was young, I was told amazing stories of creatures that lived in the stars, traveled between the worlds.
Old pilots said it was the Purrgil who inspired us to jump from system to system.
But I don't believe it.
The Purrgil are dangerous.
They wander into hyperspace lanes, crash into ships.
I've lost more than one friend that way.
Well, maybe they don't realize they're putting people in danger.
Maybe it's like Kanan says, you know.
They just do what they do.
Right now, as long as they don't come between me and my mission, I really don't care what they do.
Fair enough.
Scanners are picking up an energy source from that planetoid ahead.
You think it's the refinery? We're about to find out.
There it is.
The refinery.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=star-wars-rebels-2014&episode=s02e13


 

 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Clearly that's just the sort of tall tale fringers tell each other over drinks at an Outer Rim cantina. :P

Also, I said movies, not cartoon or canon.

You just had a movie with a massive hyperspace collision, spreading hypermatter over thousands of cubic kilometers :P

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