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Jimmifett

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Hunting Rifle and the base Assualt Rifle (the long variant) are from the book (p.166). Both can use a high power round. An assualt rifle has the benefit of being able to trigger Auto-fire, while the hunting rifle, likely a bolt action, has better accuracy.

The Carbine variant of the assualt rifle by itself does not have reduced damage as it assumes the firing of the same caliber rounds. It merely trades the range of the long arm for the better encumbrance of having a shorter barrel.

Of course, if one wanted to say, use a 5.56 round instead of 7.62, by all means reduce the damage by one, but these are "Generics" to be kept simple and quick to locate something and act as stand-ins. Had I named it FN-Scar-L (carbine, 5.56, -1 dmg) and FN Scar-H (heavy barrel, 7.62) for a more realistic list, well, there you have it, but the 7.62 and equiv would still be dmg 8 while the 5.56 would be dmg 7.

Hope that helps :)

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I was thinking how I'd handle concealable guns but in the end I'm completely happy with what they gave us. It stops players going "Well I have a Beretta PX4 Storm subcompact, so I should get bonus' to conceal but standard pistol damage..." So in other words, you get a holdout blaster with regular stats? "Yes!"

I genuinely think the best thing is to use the generic stats and try and avoid giving too much variance to individual types of firearms. The problems will come as you seek to balance them against later weapons. Having done a bit of work on this for my modern campaign, I can promise with iron-clad certainty that the stats provided in the modern chapter are incredibly usable as-is.

 

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9 minutes ago, Endersai said:

I was thinking how I'd handle concealable guns but in the end I'm completely happy with what they gave us. It stops players going "Well I have a Beretta PX4 Storm subcompact, so I should get bonus' to conceal but standard pistol damage..." So in other words, you get a holdout blaster with regular stats? "Yes!"

I genuinely think the best thing is to use the generic stats and try and avoid giving too much variance to individual types of firearms. The problems will come as you seek to balance them against later weapons. Having done a bit of work on this for my modern campaign, I can promise with iron-clad certainty that the stats provided in the modern chapter are incredibly usable as-is.

 

Yeah, the modern chapter is really good. Most of the other table entries are the options from the text laid out in table form next to thier base models, and I threw in the repeating rifles from.. steampunk I think, and converted the clockwork grenade. Added in the Smoke, CS Gas, and Flashbang based on other examples of tweaking existing items, tho didn't really have a quality for "smoke" from a smoke, so I winged it, and it'd be up to GMs on how to handle cover/obscurement from that. Pretty sure that was an issue with SW RPG too.

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I guess my question is, though, what did you envision by all those categories of pistol? I was considering how to do revolvers etc but then just concluded the light and heavy handguns in modern were enough for my needs. I don't see what a medium and heavy calibre round in this context is - I assume heavy is the US 1911 .45?

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I didn't, check out the Light and Heavy Pistol entry on page 167. I just put them on a table to present an option for players.

Yes, based on the entry, I'd place a 1911 .45 ACP firmly in the Heavy pistol realm along side a desert eagle, where as an M9 or average glock would probably be a light pistol medium caliber.

Revolver is also stated out somewhere else in the book, can't recall where.

Edited by Jimmifett

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Also, similar for machine guns (just updated after reading that entry a little more thoroughly), my Light machine gun would fire a 7.62 round (m60, M249, etc),  while the Heavy machine gun is going to be firing a .50 round (M2, etc) It's also heavier and bulkier per the entry.

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15 minutes ago, Jimmifett said:

I didn't, check out the Light and Heavy Pistol entry on page 167. I just put them on a table to present an option for players.

Yes, based on the entry, I'd place a 1911 .45 ACP firmly in the Heavy pistol realm along side a desert eagle, where as an M9 or average glock would probably be a light pistol medium caliber.

Revolver is also stated out somewhere else in the book, can't recall where.

I think it's in Weird War. I am not in front of my book though so take that with a grain of salt.

I do like what you've done, so I'm just making suggestions here. Please don't think I'm just trying to shut your ideas down.

I note for the Axis guns you have the Luger, Mauser, and FN 1910. The Walther PP and PPK are missing, as one example (purists will hate this but the P38 and Luger could be interchangable stats wise), and they would be similar to holdouts. And herein lies the problem with specific stat types for guns - you end up with lots of entries with minor and often not really obvious differences.

If I were to suggest changes it would be to remove guns by name and go for wide horiztonal categories.

e.g.

Pistol - Silenced - Dmg 4, Crit 1 - Limited Ammo 1, Range Short. All checks determine where the gun was fired from are daunting. Rarity would be say 7/10 for Allies/Axis. Example: Welrod

Pistol - Holdout - Dmg 5, Crit 3, Range short - Add two boost dice to checks around its concealment. Examples: Walther PPK, Beretta 418, FN 1910.

Pistol - Medium - Dmg 6, Crit 3, Range medium. Examples: Browning 9mm, Walther P38, Luger, Colt M1938.

Pistol - Heavy - Dmg 7, Crit 3, range medium, +1 encum (to simulate weight and limits to carried ammo) - Examples: Colt 1911A1, Webley & Scott Mk VI

 

This is just off the top of my head but in my work to date it's easier to make up categories and assign weapons to them than to stat individual weapons. The same philosophy is in my vehicles thread, where instead of statting up a Ferrari 488 or Porsche 911, I've done one sports car stat with examples of cars that would use it.

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2 minutes ago, Endersai said:

I do like what you've done, so I'm just making suggestions here. Please don't think I'm just trying to shut your ideas down.

I note for the Axis guns you have the Luger, Mauser, and FN 1910. The Walther PP and PPK are missing, as one example (purists will hate this but the P38 and Luger could be interchangable stats wise), and they would be similar to holdouts. And herein lies the problem with specific stat types for guns - you end up with lots of entries with minor and often not really obvious differences.

If I were to suggest changes it would be to remove guns by name and go for wide horiztonal categories.

e.g.

Pistol - Silenced - Dmg 4, Crit 1 - Limited Ammo 1, Range Short. All checks determine where the gun was fired from are daunting. Rarity would be say 7/10 for Allies/Axis. Example: Welrod

Pistol - Holdout - Dmg 5, Crit 3, Range short - Add two boost dice to checks around its concealment. Examples: Walther PPK, Beretta 418, FN 1910.

Pistol - Medium - Dmg 6, Crit 3, Range medium. Examples: Browning 9mm, Walther P38, Luger, Colt M1938.

Pistol - Heavy - Dmg 7, Crit 3, range medium, +1 encum (to simulate weight and limits to carried ammo) - Examples: Colt 1911A1, Webley & Scott Mk VI

 

This is just off the top of my head but in my work to date it's easier to make up categories and assign weapons to them than to stat individual weapons. The same philosophy is in my vehicles thread, where instead of statting up a Ferrari 488 or Porsche 911, I've done one sports car stat with examples of cars that would use it.

Suggestions are very much appreciated. I have little reference for german arms of that period, so I rather winged it based on round type, what it looked like, movies, and brief reads through wikipedia to see how commonly issued.

Both the allies and axis sheets, I'm treating as (very) rough guideposts with examples of named weapons to give an idea, so a GM can easily glance at and say "you found this weapon on the enemy and some ammo", then it'd be up to GM if they wanted to add further granularity. Also considering a soviet and japanese ww2 sheets, but I have even less knowledge of their arms.

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I think the issue might be you're creating work for yourself by thinking vertically along alignment terms for arms, and not horizontally by type. Consider the main Soviet handguns of WWII and immediately after (the famous Makarov was produced from 1951) - the Nagant revolver and TT33 would easily sit in the medium handguns category I mentioned above.

I guess the question is - do you want to have a situation where a player wants to buy a very specific Browning pocket pistol and you haven't done the specific stats and therefore have to break the game flow to tell them "no" or to stat it up; or do you want to say "fine, it's in the holdout category"?

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15 hours ago, Wandering Terä Käsi Artist said:

Seems interesting, but I have to ask why give assault rifles the same firepower of the hunting rifle of 8+? The assault rifle why not lower it to:

AR (Carbine): 6+Dmg

AR (Long): 7+ dmg

Just seems that a lot of weapons seem to border on high power.

This is one of the first things I noticed when flipping through the book. I'm assuming those with some firearm knowledge will quickly houserule changes to firearm damage. Those without such knowledge won't bother since it won't bug them at all.

Edited by Sturn

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1 hour ago, Sturn said:

This is one of the first things I noticed when flipping through the book. I'm assuming those with some firearm knowledge will quickly houserule changes to firearm damage. Those without such knowledge won't bother since it won't bug them at all.

i have knowledge, would not houserule, but add proper examples as a comment like Endersai did.

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just to contribute my knowledge, maybe someone will use it:

Contemporary Revolver and Pistol Ammo
Genesys Damage and Crit Ratings

Cartridge Type Damage Crit.
Revolver Ammo    
.22 Short 3 5
.22 Long 4 5
.22 Long Rifle 5 4
.25 ACP (6.35mm) 3 5
.32 ACP (7.65mm) 4 4
.32 Long (7.65mm) 4 3
.38 Special 5 3
.38 Power 6 3
.357 Magnum 7 3
.45 ACP 7 3
.45 Long 7 2
.41 Magnum 7 2
.44 Magnum 8 2
Automatic Pistol Ammo      
5.45 mm 3 5
7.62mm Nagant 4 5
7.63mm Mauser 4 4
7.62mm Parabellum 5 4
7.65mm Long 5 3
9mm Short 4 3
9mm Standard/Parabellum 5 3
9mm Police 5 2
9mm Makarov 5 3
10mm Colt 6 2

 

these are the raw figures

range is based on the actual weapon being used 

some ammo may have additional armor-piercing or trauma effects

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If you want to have that much minutiae based on round type, go for it, however, I believe the intent is to NOT have such a specific breakdown. I believe the intent is more of damage at a given effective distance. Thus, if I wanted to use a decidedly smaller round, such as 5.56 vs 7.62, both at the same effective range in a rifle, I'd consider lowering damage 1 point. However, if I wanted to model, say, an smg designed for using sub-sonic ammunition, instead of lowering damage, i'd instead reduce the effective range to Short and keep damage the same.

Of which, now i'm going to add subsonic smgs to my list...

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Yeah I emphatically would not go near calibre types vs damage. This isn't GURPS, and notwithstanding the tonally different feels you end up in the situation I want to avoid personally. Remember there's no "X rounds per clip" rule, it's the same as Star Wars - and the film John Wick is a perfect insight into how 1 attack =/= 1 shot. Repeatedly, and often.

Honestly, you have what you need in the modern book. Two categories. I would split it into three, with light/med/heavy, simply because light should be lower damage and more concealable; medium should be down the middle, and heavy should be higher damage, harder to conceal. Any modern pistol can be assigned to those, and I feel if your players want .50AE Desert Eagles with extended magazines you should be making them roll challenge dice over purple every time they try to conceal it. Just to punish their munchkin stupidity!

 

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yet the variety of ammo can be used as a plot device ...

i have had one whole session with the players trying to organize the right ammo for their NATO firearms  deep in a late 1970s soviet-zone.

and yes, they ended up picking up their enemies weapons because all the ammo available was soviet-type.

(on the extreme: a ST:TNG phaser-cartridge simply does not fit in a WH40k Lasgun)

PS: but to return to the Desert Eagle example, i would always prefer a Glock-29 and custom Ammo, just more bang for the buck

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Great job!!  Thanks for the resource!  I will definitely be using this.

 

WWII: Axis-  Shouldn't the StG 44 have autofire?  To balance it maybe cause it to be out of ammo on 3 threats.

I'd maybe provide a distinction between the Karabiner 98k and the Karabiner 98k used for sniping.  I'd suggest using the entry you have for the sniper variant but increase damage to 9 (and note that it comes with a telescopic scope that is machined on), and then have the standard K98 a little weaker than the one you have on the spreadsheet [e.g. maybe just give it accurate (1) and Pierce (1)].

 

I'd also adjust the encumbrance values a bit for a few of the WW2 guns.  I'm not really knowledgeable enough to go through it with suggestions, but I get the feeling that the 2 encumbrance they suggested for the SMG in the book is more for a Mac10, Mini-Uzi, or MP7.   I picked up Thompson SMG once and was shocked at it's weight.  It weighs a little more than the M1 Garand, but the weight is more concentrated.  I'd probably give it encumbrance 4.   I haven't looked into it, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the other hand held autofire guns warrant similar increases.

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6 hours ago, gorthano said:

WWII: Axis-  Shouldn't the StG 44 have autofire?  To balance it maybe cause it to be out of ammo on 3 threats.

 

the StG/MP44 has "select fire", and yes at 600 rpm it should be out of ammo on 3 threats in full-auto mode.

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i would make the following adjustment:

Sturmgewehr 44 Ranged (Heavy) 7 3 Medium 3 500 4  Auto-Fire with Limited Ammo 5

why not the same damage as the K43 ? -- because the StG used 7.92x33 (Kurz) Ammo versus 7.92x57 mm of the K43.

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16 hours ago, Terefang said:

i would make the following adjustment:

 

Sturmgewehr 44 Ranged (Heavy) 7 3 Medium 3 500 4  Auto-Fire with Limited Ammo 5

why not the same damage as the K43 ? -- because the StG used 7.92x33 (Kurz) Ammo versus 7.92x57 mm of the K43.

Why "Limited Ammo 5"?

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1 hour ago, DarthGM said:

Why "Limited Ammo 5"?

thats we learned at military service as a rule of thumb

  • 600 rpms = 10 r/s (theoretical) realistic is only halve that = 5r/s
  • worst human soldier reaction under stress 1.25 s = 5 times 0.25 seconds (average reaction time for humans to a visual stimulus).
  • 1.25 x 5 = 6.25 rounds per burst
  • 30 round magazine divided by 6.25 = 4.8 bursts rounds up to 5

yes, you can empty the whole magazine in 6 seconds, which is simply a bad idea unless fireing at a group of targets and using recoil to your advantage

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To quote page 200:

Quote

However, remember that combat encounters generally only last four or five rounds, so if your Limited Ammo rating is higher than that, running out of ammo won’t come into play. So, unless each shot costs money, don’t give weapons high Limited Ammo ratings.

I personally take that as anything higher than Limited Ammo 4 is pointless as an attribute. A round of combat isn't any specific number of rounds fired really or time passed, except in limit 1 or 2 cases for the most part. If it's got a 30 round magazine, or even 10 round magazine, I'm not going to bother with limited ammo, i'll keep it more cinematic and use threat and despair to run out of ammo, more in line with the system.

Edited by Jimmifett

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1 hour ago, Terefang said:

thats we learned at military service as a rule of thumb

  • 600 rpms = 10 r/s (theoretical) realistic is only halve that = 5r/s
  • worst human soldier reaction under stress 1.25 s = 5 times 0.25 seconds (average reaction time for humans to a visual stimulus).
  • 1.25 x 5 = 6.25 rounds per burst
  • 30 round magazine divided by 6.25 = 4.8 bursts rounds up to 5

yes, you can empty the whole magazine in 6 seconds, which is simply a bad idea unless fireing at a group of targets and using recoil to your advantage

But this is a narrative system. 6 shot revolvers don't have Limited Ammo 6. Pistols, assault rifles, machine guns, and even shotguns in the game don't have Limited Ammo. Narratively, you're carrying enough ammo and are able to change it quick enough until the circumstances dictate you are out of ammo; usually by a Despair but in some cases (like this rifle) Three Threat will do it too.

The Limited Ammo quality should be removed.

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4 hours ago, DarthGM said:

But this is a narrative system. 6 shot revolvers don't have Limited Ammo 6. Pistols, assault rifles, machine guns, and even shotguns in the game don't have Limited Ammo. Narratively, you're carrying enough ammo and are able to change it quick enough until the circumstances dictate you are out of ammo; usually by a Despair but in some cases (like this rifle) Three Threat will do it too.

The Limited Ammo quality should be removed.

reviewing the descriptions of all the relevant weapons in the core book, your are right, even if it is inconsistent. 

the designers only applied "Limited Ammo" to weapons that are not clip based and have a low ammo count (1-4).

it is debatable, if revolvers and/or certain hunting rifles should have "Limited Ammo" or not.

if it were a generic entry (eg. "Generic Axis Sturmgewehr"), i would follow your suggestion and discard "Limited Ammo".

for specific entries like the stg44, the "Limited Ammo" should apply for "Auto-Fire" mode, single-shot can continue to be handled narratively.

but it is a matter of game-style how much narrativism and details you wanna play with, and you are free to ignore me.

 

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