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Blail Blerg

Who won the wave?

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On 12/17/2017 at 6:54 AM, Blail Blerg said:

Best ship? Silencer

Best faction? Imperial

Best 3 cards? I'm going to include pilots - Fenn Rau (Best Competitive Design), Advanced Optics (Most Useful Design), Crossfire Formation (New Design Scope)

--

Worst ship Kimogila

Worst faction Scum

Most disappointing 3 cards Saturation Salvo, Courier Droid, Asteroid Gambit 

Most "ugh I cannot believe you did that and terrible game design" choices? Maybe Cobalt Leader? If we could launch action bombs I'd change my tune.

Overall I think this was a great wave in all respects. We got some great cards, we got some not so great cards, the ships feel well balanced, and most importantly, nothing was broken on arrival (or useless for that matter). GG FFG.

Edited by BVRCH

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On 12/16/2017 at 3:59 PM, Erion_Fett said:

Maul is just a bad dengar. Dengar can give you 1 or 2 rerolls with... wait... 0 stress!

Some ships benefit from that stress though.

Try Ezra and Maul on a Ghost together, with another ship carrying inspiring recruit. Become stressed with Maul, flip a focus to a crit, and then remove at least two stresses with Inspiring recruit.

Edited by jwilliamson12

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On 16 December 2017 at 8:24 PM, Blail Blerg said:

Best ship?

Best faction? 

Best 3 cards? 

--

Worst ship

Worst faction

Most disappointing 3 cards

Most "ugh I cannot believe you did that and terrible game design" choices? 

Best Ship:
Game-wise, the Phantom II - all but one of its pilots are highly useable, it's incredibly cheap and also versatile. The Silencer is my personal favourite, though, for being incredible fun to fly and the best looking by far (even if it is too big).

Best Faction:
Probably Rebels, as I think they gained the most options from the new cards.

Best 3 Upgrade Cards:
Advanced Optics: Incredibly useful for almost every ship that can take it, bringing viability to a lot of previously underused pilots and new build options for some popular ones like Poe.

Contraband Cybernetics: Amazing utility for a single point and perhaps the best use of an Illicit slot for a lot of ships.

'Chopper' (Astromech): Because it's hilarious as well as being potentially really useful, particularly for Y-Wings.

Worst Ship:
The Alpha-Class. It's aesthetic is weirdly small and out of place, it's really boring to fly, painfully clunky, and the named pilots are stupidly overpriced for what they actually offer.

Worst Faction:
Scum and Villainy, for sure. The Kimogila isn't dreadful, but it doesn't seem to fit into the Scum arsenal very well, and the expansion contains the most dud cards (two copies of Saturation Salvo, R5-TK [fun but not practical], Scrambler Missiles, Dead Mans Switch).

Worst/Most Disappointing 3 Upgrade Cards:
Saturation Salvo: Far too many hoops to jump through for a poor AoE attack, at a time when true swarms are almost nonexistent, and one that requires the initial shot to fail. There are niche cases where it can be made to work, but giving up an EPT slot for it seems like a hugely unbalanced trade for what it gives.

Scrambler Missiles: Finally a 2pt missile is available, but it does no damage and unfortunately the Jam effect is quite underwhelming for a 1-shot weapon. Admittedly, there are ships that can Reload it, but multiple rounds of not doing damage is not exactly desirable and munitions slots are often better spent on high-yield weapons instead of utilities - the XX-23 Thread Tracers should have taught FFG that.

Maul: Not because it's a bad card (it isn't), but more that it's so woefully limited and expensive - for Scum it doesn't compare well to Dengar crew, leaving it for a handful of Rebel ships, and the 3pt cost feels just a touch too high to warrant using it on many platforms. Thus far, I've only been able to justify it on a VCX as an alternative to FCS.

'Can't Believe You Did That/Poor Design':
The entire Alpha-Class expansion. All the points above stand, but additionally:
-It's obnoxiously self-contained, providing few cards that are of any use to ships other than itself. The exceptions are Linked Battery, which is useable by precisely two other ships in the game, neither of which are helped much by it, and the Jamming Beam, which is largely inferior to the Tractor Beam, a weapon already not often used on ships with the requisite slot in favour of one that does damage.
-It has appropriated Advanced SLAM almost entirely from the K-Wing whose image is on the card.
-It is allegedly a munitions carrier, yet is quite poor at using them and is far stronger a choice loaded down with a cannon instead.
-The titles that grant it its gimmicks (shooting despite a Weapons Disabled token) are poor - the XG-1 is taken only to allow cannons to be used, since the ability does not function with the damage-dealing cannons commonly taken on the ship (Heavy Laser and Mangler), and the OS-1 is so bad that the only successful munitions build for the ship does not equip it at all.
-It's just not that good a ship: it gets one shot before having to Lambda it's way around the board for another three or four turns to become relevant again, since a 2-turn into SLAM 2-turn is a very poor substitute for a K-turn. The K-Wing can manage the relative clunkiness of SLAM-ing because it has a turret, making facing less of a problem. Some 25-30pts for a ship that will contribute so rarely to the actual fight is a poor investment.
-Worst of all: the quite frankly disturbing, almost cult-like, fanboyism for the ship that seems to pervade the community. It's obsessive and irritating, and turned me against the ship long before it was actually released - that position is not helped by the constant praise for what has proved to be a mediocre ship that fails to even do what it is supposed to and is designed so poorly that it is better flown without its defining abilities.

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5 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

Best Ship:
Game-wise, the Phantom II - all but one of its pilots are highly useable, it's incredibly cheap and also versatile. The Silencer is my personal favourite, though, for being incredible fun to fly and the best looking by far (even if it is too big).

Best Faction:
Probably Rebels, as I think they gained the most options from the new cards.

Best 3 Upgrade Cards:
Advanced Optics: Incredibly useful for almost every ship that can take it, bringing viability to a lot of previously underused pilots and new build options for some popular ones like Poe.

Contraband Cybernetics: Amazing utility for a single point and perhaps the best use of an Illicit slot for a lot of ships.

'Chopper' (Astromech): Because it's hilarious as well as being potentially really useful, particularly for Y-Wings.

Worst Ship:
The Alpha-Class. It's aesthetic is weirdly small and out of place, it's really boring to fly, painfully clunky, and the named pilots are stupidly overpriced for what they actually offer.

Worst Faction:
Scum and Villainy, for sure. The Kimogila isn't dreadful, but it doesn't seem to fit into the Scum arsenal very well, and the expansion contains the most dud cards (two copies of Saturation Salvo, R5-TK [fun but not practical], Scrambler Missiles, Dead Mans Switch).

Worst/Most Disappointing 3 Upgrade Cards:
Saturation Salvo: Far too many hoops to jump through for a poor AoE attack, at a time when true swarms are almost nonexistent, and one that requires the initial shot to fail. There are niche cases where it can be made to work, but giving up an EPT slot for it seems like a hugely unbalanced trade for what it gives.

Scrambler Missiles: Finally a 2pt missile is available, but it does no damage and unfortunately the Jam effect is quite underwhelming for a 1-shot weapon. Admittedly, there are ships that can Reload it, but multiple rounds of not doing damage is not exactly desirable and munitions slots are often better spent on high-yield weapons instead of utilities - the XX-23 Thread Tracers should have taught FFG that.

Maul: Not because it's a bad card (it isn't), but more that it's so woefully limited and expensive - for Scum it doesn't compare well to Dengar crew, leaving it for a handful of Rebel ships, and the 3pt cost feels just a touch too high to warrant using it on many platforms. Thus far, I've only been able to justify it on a VCX as an alternative to FCS.

'Can't Believe You Did That/Poor Design':
The entire Alpha-Class expansion. All the points above stand, but additionally:
-It's obnoxiously self-contained, providing few cards that are of any use to ships other than itself. The exceptions are Linked Battery, which is useable by precisely two other ships in the game, neither of which are helped much by it, and the Jamming Beam, which is largely inferior to the Tractor Beam, a weapon already not often used on ships with the requisite slot in favour of one that does damage.
-It has appropriated Advanced SLAM almost entirely from the K-Wing whose image is on the card.
-It is allegedly a munitions carrier, yet is quite poor at using them and is far stronger a choice loaded down with a cannon instead.
-The titles that grant it its gimmicks (shooting despite a Weapons Disabled token) are poor - the XG-1 is taken only to allow cannons to be used, since the ability does not function with the damage-dealing cannons commonly taken on the ship (Heavy Laser and Mangler), and the OS-1 is so bad that the only successful munitions build for the ship does not equip it at all.
-It's just not that good a ship: it gets one shot before having to Lambda it's way around the board for another three or four turns to become relevant again, since a 2-turn into SLAM 2-turn is a very poor substitute for a K-turn. The K-Wing can manage the relative clunkiness of SLAM-ing because it has a turret, making facing less of a problem. Some 25-30pts for a ship that will contribute so rarely to the actual fight is a poor investment.
-Worst of all: the quite frankly disturbing, almost cult-like, fanboyism for the ship that seems to pervade the community. It's obsessive and irritating, and turned me against the ship long before it was actually released - that position is not helped by the constant praise for what has proved to be a mediocre ship that fails to even do what it is supposed to and is designed so poorly that it is better flown without its defining abilities.

Boy, I can tell you fly rebels, either that or you're just upset Imperials actually got something we wanted this time.

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Some of the points that @MalusCalibur made I think are quite valid, however the way it has been put across is a bit obnoxious. :( Anyways it is a bit of a shame that the gunboat just isn't good at shooting missiles/torps and that the only good build for it is as a HLC Carrier.

As with all ships, there is a hope of an aces pack or something like that in the future that will bring use to an ion cannon gunboat or something more useful than being able to shoot a worthless cannon after slamming.

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2 hours ago, Warlon said:

Boy, I can tell you fly rebels, either that or you're just upset Imperials actually got something we wanted this time.

Actually I fly all the factions, with Imperials being the one I fly most and Rebels, in fact, being the one I fly least. A vocal minority who spent a number of years pining for something most of us had never heard of, let alone care about, do not represent Imperial players as a whole.

Good to know that you don't have any valid counterpoints and instead resort to baseless attacks, also.

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1 hour ago, william1134 said:

Some of the points that @MalusCalibur made I think are quite valid, however the way it has been put across is a bit obnoxious. :( Anyways it is a bit of a shame that the gunboat just isn't good at shooting missiles/torps and that the only good build for it is as a HLC Carrier.

As with all ships, there is a hope of an aces pack or something like that in the future that will bring use to an ion cannon gunboat or something more useful than being able to shoot a worthless cannon after slamming.

^This.

For me, the Gunboat offers a very different ship for Imperials with new interesting mechanics, though looks like FFG decided to be a bit too cautious with some upgrades.

OS1 title: Looks expensive. Maybe allowing Deadeye will be a solution, or using Unguided rockets... The lock requisite seems to restrictive on a low PS ship.

Jamming cannon should do at least one damage.

Not allowing ION cannon with XG1 title...

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17 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Actually I fly all the factions, with Imperials being the one I fly most and Rebels, in fact, being the one I fly least. A vocal minority who spent a number of years pining for something most of us had never heard of, let alone care about, do not represent Imperial players as a whole.

LOL.  Maybe not, but a highly competitive event in Krayts territory offers a pretty decent representation:

 

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2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

LOL.  Maybe not, but a highly competitive event in Krayts territory offers a pretty decent representation:

 

People flying the ship in a competitive event don't neccesarily translate into the same people who spent the last few years clamouring for it, so I'm not convinced that is proof that the Alpha-Class is something 'Imperial players wanted'.

As for the ship's performance, it might run counter to my claim that it's not a very good ship, but it kind of proves the poor design I was talking about - the successful builds there either went straight for a Heavy Laser Cannon (thus ignoring munitions and the XG-1 ability entirely), or for the cheapest Harpoon carrier possible (forgoing the OS-1 title) - i.e. ignoring both the abilities the ship is supposed to be defined by and the role it is, lore-wise, supposed to have.

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5 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

As for the ship's performance, it might run counter to my claim that it's not a very good ship, but it kind of proves the poor design I was talking about - the successful builds there either went straight for a Heavy Laser Cannon (thus ignoring munitions and the XG-1 ability entirely), or for the cheapest Harpoon carrier possible (forgoing the OS-1 title) - i.e. ignoring both the abilities the ship is supposed to be defined by and the role it is, lore-wise, supposed to have.

That isn't a new thing in this game though, is it?  The most successful Y-Wing builds use Twin Laser Turrets.  Poe flies with R2-D2, not BB-8.  TIE Defenders are often more effective flown without cannons.  Players will obviously gravitate towards builds that prove effective, so what's your point?

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I have been campaigning for the gunboat since I joined these forums, but I have to agree with MalusCalibur that both titles went too conservative.
XG-1 should have allowed cannon attacks without such low cost restriction.
OS-1 should have allowed ordnance attacks without explicit target lock requirement.

The ship lacks action economy, koiograns, segnors, talons, any good named pilots whatsoever, any way to keep itself alive with tokens or regen...
I don't think relaxing the requirements of the titles would have broken the ship.

In any case, they should have not made the XG-1 configuration so clear better choice than the OS-1. That is something ficklegreendice noticed within 5 minutes of the ship article being released, that is the moment the HLC Gunboat build was created, and remains the most effective, months later.


 

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5 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

The most fun I had this wave was a Gunboat versus Gunboat endgame. Decisions never mattered that much.

By the power of the 2x3 bank disengage I also never found myself Lambdaing my way around the field.

people also really don't seem to understand what "lambdaing" entails

the lambda has a red 2-turn and packs all that horrid clunkiness onto a large base four times as capable of overlapping ships and obstacles

I cannot even begin to describe how much of a difference that makes, especially when you factor in the disengaging power of SLAM

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Yup.  The Gunboat and Lambda dials aren't even close to comparable - and if you're trying to keep on target by 2 turning as soon as you pass the enemy, you're probably doing it wrong.

Best tactics for Gunboats are kiting - engage at a 45 degree angle at long range, turn and slam away, turn and slam to get back on, engage again, and so on.  But kiting without turrets is a skill that will take some building.

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Gunboats are hit-and-run ships. They want to NOT fly in formation, hit from multiple angles, and utilize large asteroids + SLAM turns to avoid being tailed while turning around.

They are easily the winner of this release imo. Bug is a close second because they handed the rebels so much crap for under 25pts on a ship that is technically tanky enough to survive a hit maybe 2. Essentially they gave them back Biggs, only this time he isnt mandatory just HEAVILY encouraged to shoot first.

i'm pissed about the silencer. Literally fat interceptor...BOOOORING

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6 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

Actually I fly all the factions, with Imperials being the one I fly most and Rebels, in fact, being the one I fly least. A vocal minority who spent a number of years pining for something most of us had never heard of, let alone care about, do not represent Imperial players as a whole.

Good to know that you don't have any valid counterpoints and instead resort to baseless attacks, also.

Good to know you think I'm attacking you when I was just being sarcastic.

You do make good points, but don't compare it to the Lambda, at least. NOTHING is as bad as the Lambda.

Also, I've learned not to really counter argue over the internet, it never really ends well.

EDIT: Also, if you think 2 turn + 2 turn is the only way to stay in the fight then you are horribly mistaken. The Gunboat isn't a knife fighter, it's designed for hit and run tactics, and to approach from different angles so one of your ships is always firing upon the enemy. That's why I think you either haven't flown the ship or haven't flown it for very long, there is a reason people love this ship.

Edited by Warlon

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13 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

That isn't a new thing in this game though, is it?  The most successful Y-Wing builds use Twin Laser Turrets.  Poe flies with R2-D2, not BB-8.  TIE Defenders are often more effective flown without cannons.  Players will obviously gravitate towards builds that prove effective, so what's your point?

Prior examples of poor design do not excuse more of the same - though Poe, at least, has been addressed to a degree: Black One, Advanced Optics and Intensity have gone some way toward making regeneration less of a necessity for him. The Alpha-Class, however, is the first ship with a 'functionality' title (like the ARC-170 or TIE/SF) that works better without either of them, which is bad design. So that is my point.

 

8 hours ago, Warlon said:

Good to know you think I'm attacking you when I was just being sarcastic.

You do make good points, but don't compare it to the Lambda, at least. NOTHING is as bad as the Lambda.

Also, I've learned not to really counter argue over the internet, it never really ends well.

EDIT: Also, if you think 2 turn + 2 turn is the only way to stay in the fight then you are horribly mistaken. The Gunboat isn't a knife fighter, it's designed for hit and run tactics, and to approach from different angles so one of your ships is always firing upon the enemy. That's why I think you either haven't flown the ship or haven't flown it for very long, there is a reason people love this ship.

Sarcasm does not translate well over the internet - expecting me to somehow know that was your intent when you refuse by your own admission to even try and engage in an actual discussion is a little rich.
I regret directly comparing the Alpha-Class to the Lambda, since of course it has an easier time turning around that that does (in fact, so does every other ship), and of course a 2-turn into 2-turn isn't the only way to do so - but the fact remains that the ship must spend several rounds not shooting while it repositions, which for the cost of the ship is not efficient at all, and leads the capacity for 'spike' damage to be diluted too heavily. 'Hit and Run' tactics hardly worked for the new Scyks, when it was their advertised new gimmick, and they are a lot cheaper.
I have flown the ship several times, and it has the dubious honour of being the first ship that I hated flying so much I have no desire to do so again. I have tried numerous builds and attempted to 'hit and run' the way you describe, yet every time the ship spends so little time actually firing I see no value in spending the points on it over far more capable alternatives (particularly a turret-armed Aggressor or named TIE/SF).
People loving the Alpha-Class seems to stem far more from the aforementioned obsession than anything else, because in game it is decidedly average and designed very poorly.

Edited by MalusCalibur

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3 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

Prior examples of poor design do not excuse more of the same - though Poe, at least, has been addressed to a degree: Black One, Advanced Optics and Intensity have gone some way toward making regeneration less of a necessity for him. The Alpha-Class, however, is the first ship with a 'functionality' title (like the ARC-170 or TIE/SF) that works better without either of them, which is bad design. So that is my point.

 

Sarcasm does not translate well over the internet - expecting me to somehow know that was your intent when you refuse by your own admission to even try and engage in an actual discussion is a little rich.
I regret directly comparing the Alpha-Class to the Lambda, since of course it has an easier time turning around that that does (in fact, so does every other ship), and of course a 2-turn into 2-turn isn't the only way to do so - but the fact remains that the ship must spend several rounds not shooting while it repositions, which for the cost of the ship is not efficient at all, and leads the capacity for 'spike' damage to be diluted too heavily. 'Hit and Run' tactics hardly worked for the new Scyks, when it was their advertised new gimmick, and they are a lot cheaper.
I have flown the ship several times, and it has the dubious honour of being the first ship that I hated flying so much I have no desire to do so again. I have tried numerous builds and attempted to 'hit and run' the way you describe, yet every time the ship spends so little time actually firing I see no value in spending the points on it over far more capable alternatives (particularly a turret-armed Aggressor or named TIE/SF).
People loving the Alpha-Class seems to stem far more from the aforementioned obsession than anything else, because in game it is decidedly average and designed very poorly.

You are correct, sarcasm does not translate through text well, I apologise. I also didn't have time to construct an "argument" because I was at work.

To be perfectly honest I think this ship just comes down to playstyle, obviously against turrets or hyper maneuverable ships it's going to struggle, but it can still hold it's own.

Saying that the nostalgia from fans is what blinds them to liking the ship so much, I disagree. Most people, myself included, identify with the "cult" as a joke. The ship does seem "average", but I think that's what FFG was going for, it seems like, to me, that they're trying to keep the Jumpmaster from repeating.

For it's points, however, I think it is much better than you give it credit. Harpoon missiles are one of if not the best missiles in the game, and it alongside LRS for 22 points gives you:

4 attack dice with full mods, 7 health (3 of which are shields) and 2 agility.

That's pretty good for what you get.

Obviously this is just your opinion, and I can't ask you to change it, but I disagree that it is the worst ship of the wave, the amount of raw firepower you get for the price is too much to be ignored.

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18 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

so what's your point?

He's right, and everyone else is wrong.  Everyone takes the 0pt titles on other ships, so people not taking a 2pt title to trim points means it is bad.

Edited by hawk32

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Best Ship - Gunboat

It fills a role that it's faction badly needed and flies like nothing else in the game. It's a shame the uniques got so badly Rhymer'd, but we can't have everything, I guess.

Best Faction - Imperial. Both of their ships are strong and they picked up a new toy for the FO and SF.

Best 3 cards - Flight Assist Astromech, Advanced Optics, Nu Squadron Pilot

FAA might not save the T-65 on its own, but it helps a lot; Advanced Optics is a really strong card, and not just on Poe; and the Nu Squadron seems to be shaping up as one of the Empire's best generics.

Worst Ship - Kimogila

Not that I think there's anything particularly wrong with the ship; the bullseye arc is an interesting mechanic and the ship itself is solid. But it's a blunt instrument in a faction with plenty of those already, and compared to everything else in the wave it's just bland.

Worst Faction - Scum

See above.

Most disappointing 3 cards - Saturation Salvo, Major Vynder, R5-TK

Salvo is a useless waste of cardboard, Vynder's horrendous case of Rhymer Disease is a total waste of a potentially interesting ace, and as for R5-TK... why does this card even exist? At least Salvo does something, even if said something is a complete waste of time.

Most "ugh I cannot believe you did that and terrible game design" choices? - Linked Battery

Don't get me wrong, this is a fine card, but why in the name of all that is holy does it say Small ship only? Why you do this, FFG? WHY!? What do you have against Firesprays and IG-88s? Do you not want them to see play? LB may not even have been enough, but it would have been something to at least get people experimenting with the ships again. Such a missed opportunity.

Edited by DR4CO

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