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Pigsticker

Implications of TLJ for star wars fleet battles(Possible light Spoilers)

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So maybe this has already been covered, but has anyone realized how TLJ completely changed canon by basically making it possible for a ship to hyperspace through an entire fleet and destroy half of it?  Does that mean that for Armada, the new game will just be a race to hyperspace our ships into one another to destroy them?

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They're a little behind the times, Hera did an FTL jump through one of the blockade stations around Lothal in Rebels.  Blew the thing to frak n gone, along with damage to several nearby stations.

Edited by outerrimrebel

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On 12/16/2017 at 0:46 PM, Pigsticker said:

So maybe this has already been covered, but has anyone realized how TLJ completely changed canon by basically making it possible for a ship to hyperspace through an entire fleet and destroy half of it?  Does that mean that for Armada, the new game will just be a race to hyperspace our ships into one another to destroy them?

Well you see Fishpicker, even in Legends it was seen as next to impossible to jump into another fleet. It was like bullseyeing a wamp rat from orbit, in the middle of a sandstorm. That is if the safeties didn’t kick in first and dump you out of lightside before you could even impact. 

So, Kidsnickers, that was a one in a million shot.

(PS. If your name isn’t a tribute to MST3K/Hobgoblins I apologize)

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So maybe this has already been covered, but has anyone realized how ANH completely changed canon by basically making it possible for a ship to fire a single pair of proton torpedoes through an exhaust port and destroy an entire battle station, with the hundreds of fighters and ships in it?  Does that mean that for Armada, the new game will just be a race to fire a proton torpedo into one another to destroy them?

Or maybe...the film doesn't present the expected result at all, but rather an act of sheer desperation, that only this one time worked out this well because of luck/destiny/the Force/whatever.

Edited by xanderf

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2 hours ago, SkyCake said:

so if kylos fleet had just one interdictor kicking around they would have been fine...

And if they had an Interdictor at the battle of Hoth the Rebels wouldn't have escaped. Problem is imperial fleet captains learn space tactics in the Academy by playing Armada and the first thing they are taught about Interdictors is: That's crap.

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4 hours ago, xanderf said:

So maybe this has already been covered, but has anyone realized how ANH completely changed canon by basically making it possible for a ship to fire a single pair of proton torpedoes through an exhaust port and destroy an entire battle station, with the hundreds of fighters and ships in it?  Does that mean that for Armada, the new game will just be a race to fire a proton torpedo into one another to destroy them?

Or maybe...the film doesn't present the expected result at all, but rather an act of sheer desperation, that only this one time worked out this well because of luck/destiny/the Force/whatever.

Maaaaan, what is this sense thing you're doing? We don't need sanity here..!

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First Order will probably come back with hyperspace projectiles.

"Realistically", I think the targeting exit vectors would have to be precise in order to pull off this kind of thing on a regular basis. Part of why it probably worked is because Supremacy is, barring the Death Stars, the largest space vehicle ever constructed in all of Star Wars. It's not hard to miss.

Also, plot.

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1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

...barring the Death Stars...

Also, plot.

That's it, though. The plot of four SW movies so far (R1, ANH, ROTJ and TFA) revolves largely around finding a way to destroy a very large object, and this proves to be exceedingly difficult and worth the sacrifice of many, many lives.

And now the plot of TLJ revolves around something else entirely, but provides in an off-hand manner (requiring no planning or setup, and at a much lower cost) what would have been a trivial solution to the same problem.

It's a classic case of Misapplied Phlebotinum. In fact, I just noticed that it's the first example of this trope listed on the page...

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11 hours ago, Norsehound said:

First Order will probably come back with hyperspace projectiles.

Indeed. Particularly given that we have shown that you can pass through shields while traveling through hyperspace.

Something I'm curious about is this: was the damage done the result of a physical impact at  or near the speed of light, or was it a case of "hyperspace energies," that are known to warp space during the transition to/from hyperspace?

If it was a physical impact, then A) I don't think that was nearly enough damage, and B) it means that you will need large missiles to be effective. 

If it was "hyperspace energies" then I could easily see a smaller missle that just has an oversized hyperdrive, or even one that is deliberately tuned to cause maximum "turbulence" along the jump, rather than being tuned to make a successful jump. By that, I'm saying that I could make my car engine produce far more noise, heat, smoke, or several other by=products, if I wasn't terribly concerned with driving it anywhere.

 

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I figured it was the physical impact combined with shrapnel traveling at light speed. I don't think we've ever seen anything like this in Star Wars before (at least, not to my knowledge). I've never heard of hyperspace cannons being used to hit anything, and while the Galaxy Gun fired projectiles into hyperspace, said projectiles came out of hyperspace when they attacked planets.

If any political government in Star Wars is going to use dirty superweapons with glee, it's the First Order. So, if there is going to be any kind of timeskip going into IX, the First Order will probably develop such hyperspace projectiles and fling them at any insubbordinate planets. It's probably easier to attain than building another planet killing laser.

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Let's assume that this only works with two massive ships. We don't really know the details of hyperspace mass shadows, but we know that only very massive objects cast them. Perhaps the Raddus (3 km) and the Supremacy (13 km x 60 km) were large enough to edge into this category of object. In fact, at the time of the incident, they are the two largest known starships in the galaxy. ("Known," because the Eclipse might show up.)

For all we know, it required a magic combination of all of the following:

  • An unprecedentedly large target ship, big enough to cast a significant mass shadow into hyperspace.
  • A quite massive missile ship, big enough to throw a lot of blue radiation around.
  • Precision and/or luck to catch the target exactly at the right range so that the missile ship can have maximum kinetic energy without being fully in hyperspace.
  • Luck and/or the will of the Force to hit the target during this chaotic transition from realspace to hyperspace.

So, it's entirely plausible to imagine that this has been attempted in the past. Someone tried it, but the ships passed through each other because it was never the right combination of ship sizes. Someone tried it, but the missiles overshot the target too often. Someone tried it, but the challenge of hitting any target on command was too difficult. Someone suggested it to the Empire, and they thought the idea of devoting that kind of desperation to combating rebel insurgents was insane, and didn't have the psychological impact of a looming Death Star. Someone suggested it to the Republic, and they shut the plan down as a potential war crime.

It's kind of like having the bad guy throw a hand grenade at the good guy, and the good guy quick-draws a revolver and shoots it out of the sky. Cool moment, but does it ravage continuity, trivialize the fandom, insult the audience, and ruin any past or future fight scene because all grenades are not shot in midair before they can land? No, because it was a one-off, audacious moment that couldn't be recreated reliably and happened as much from desperation as from strategy.

There's also some possible story in which the brand-new hyperspace tracking technology involves some reactor inside the Supremacy to maintain a pocket of matter inside a permanent hyperspace/realspace singularity in order to detect ships in hyperspace. And that an energy release from this device was part of the damage, and that the Supremacy was uniquely vulnerable to this kind of attack.

Edited by Nostromoid

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Insult the audience? That was one of the most beautiful scenes in the entire film!

I acknowledge there could be future ramifications coming out of this, but I'm fine with it. It's all handwaving space wizardry anyway, and I'll be fine with an explaination further down the line as to why this doesn't happen more often. For now I accept it as is.

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13 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Insult the audience? That was one of the most beautiful scenes in the entire film!

I acknowledge there could be future ramifications coming out of this, but I'm fine with it. It's all handwaving space wizardry anyway, and I'll be fine with an explaination further down the line as to why this doesn't happen more often. For now I accept it as is.

I was being a little facetious. I've seen some very overblown reactions to this on the Internet. I've only just learned that Star Wars is forever ruined because of this scene, where meanwhile I'd just quietly thought it was awesome.

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Here is my personnel headcanon.  Old canon (don't know if this has changed) was that a ship had to run up to light speed to make the jump into hyperspace.  Hence why they speed away or drop in, but hyperspace is different from normal space.  For the type of kamikaze attack we see in TLJ to work a ship would have to be positioned to hit the enemy ship right at the point just before they actually hit hyperspace, or maybe right as they do, think of making a sonic boom with energy plus the speed of the ship then hitting.  Anyone who has watched BSG, think of the episodes where ships did an FTL jump too close, there was a shockwave.

There is nothing in canon to support this, but it makes it easier for me to accept this way.

Edited by Salted Diamond

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11 hours ago, Salted Diamond said:

Here is my personnel headcanon.  Old canon (don't know if this has changed) was that a ship had to run up to light speed to make the jump into hyperspace.  Hence why they speed away or drop in, but hyperspace is different from normal space.  For the type of kamikaze attack we see in TLJ to work a ship would have to be positioned to hit the enemy ship right at the point just before they actually hit hyperspace, or maybe right as they do, think of making a sonic boom with energy plus the speed of the ship then hitting.  Anyone who has watched BSG, think of the episodes where ships did an FTL jump too close, there was a shockwave.

There is nothing in canon to support this, but it makes it easier for me to accept this way.

In Rebels, (season 3 finale) we see a ship being trapped by an Interdictor. It jumps into hyperspace, looking like it's accelerated away - then it falls out of hyperspace again, in exactly the same spot that it was "making the jump" - stationary.

 

So, it's possible that while ships appear to be "running up to light speed" - they are actually "transiting into another dimension" with no actual change of velocity.

 

In hyperspace, ships in Legends were affected by what was in realspace. The thin gases of the interstellar medium, were portrayed as limiting the ship's maximum speed - with ships travelling faster though areas where the interstellar medium was much "thinner".

 

I'd go with something similar for the newcanon - that you can be affected by realspace objects even when in hyperspace - and if you collide with one, both you and the object take damage.

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No, they aren't the 2 largest starships known in the galaxy. Every Resurgent Star Destroyer is the same size (~3km long) as the Raddus was. Now, these ships in general ARE much larger than those seen in the Galactic Civil War (excepting the Executor class, because I dont think the Eclipse is canon anymore, unless I am mistaken?) and so maybe the mass shadows thing still works as we previously understood it to work with hyperspace still being another dimension rather than just going literally FTL.

 

My personal opinion is Rian just went with e=MC^2 because hyperspace ramming would look cool despite the damage that type of thing does to the integrity of past battle tactics and weapons design. I also think someone will swoop in and clean up the mess with some sort of convoluted reason as to why this wasnt done before and dont expect it to work going forwards.

Edited by bleachorange
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5 minutes ago, bleachorange said:

No, they aren't the 2 largest starships known in the galaxy. Every Resurgent Star Destroyer is the same size (~3km long) as the Raddus was. Now, these ships in general ARE much larger than those seen in the Galactic Civil War (excepting the Executor class, because I dont think the Eclipse is canon anymore, unless I am mistaken?)

Currently, the Emperor's personal SSD Eclipse appears to be a regular Executor-class, going by what little has been said about it.

 

Resurgents look to be a bit flatter than ISDs. And the Raddus is quite a bit longer than a Resurgent (Resurgent is just under 2916m, Raddus is just over 3438m). Add in that the Raddus looks rather chunky by Mon Cal standards, and I would suggest it may be very slightly larger in volume (and probably mass) than a Resurgent).

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2 hours ago, Ironlord said:

Currently, the Emperor's personal SSD Eclipse appears to be a regular Executor-class, going by what little has been said about it.

 

Resurgents look to be a bit flatter than ISDs. And the Raddus is quite a bit longer than a Resurgent (Resurgent is just under 2916m, Raddus is just over 3438m). Add in that the Raddus looks rather chunky by Mon Cal standards, and I would suggest it may be very slightly larger in volume (and probably mass) than a Resurgent).

Yes, the MC85s are a tad longer than the approx. I gave, but not necessarily containing more volume (though I dont really care one way or the other). The Resurgents are flatter only in silhouette compared to an Imperial class SD. They are actually taller and the the 'flatness' lends them more volume, not less. Here is a look in profile.

But all I was saying really is that while large, the Raddus isnt some special one-off behemoth. It was the size capital warships had grown to before the New Republic displayed its stupidity and naivete in disarming itself right after it had fought a war for its own existence.

 

 

Edited by bleachorange

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